Alpha Legion: 10,000 year old marines?

[Akylas]

I apologize if this has been brought up before. I did a couple searches and ran through the first few pages of the forum and didn't find anything.

 

I'm fairly new to 40k and very new to Chaos marines. One thing I noticed a lot in the fluff I've read is that marines from the Chaos legions are quite frequently veterans of the Heresy. Explanations for this mostly seem to center around their hanging out in the Eye of Terror or Maelstrom, and the effects the warp has on time (so thousands of years can pass in the Materium and mere hundreds, decades, or less for them, as well as the effects warp exposure seems to have on aging).

 

I'm working on some fluff for my fledgeling Alpha Legion warband/cell and was thinking about the fact they spend most of their time outside the Eye of Terror in "real" space. Would it be realistic to assume they'd tend to be younger than, say, a group of Word Bearers, and more in tune with a loyalist chapter?

[totgeboren]

Yeah, well, there could be be some Heresy-era veterans about (though I doubt it), but as you noticed, the Alpha Legion tend to avoid warp/real-space areas, probably because they tend to make you insane and/or mutated.

So are correct in that Alpha Legion marines would generally be of the same age as more normal marines.

[Akylas]

I suspected as much. I know there's no upper limit given to how long a Space Marine can live, but at the same time there don't seem to be many 10,000 loyalists (only ones that come to mind are that one Space Wolf Dreadnought and a Salamander from a BL book who would die if moved).

[totgeboren]

I'm sure that some Alpha Legionnaires fully turned to Chaos following the Heresy and went to live in the Eye/Maelstrom and who are still around kicking butt, but most AL avoided this route, so would live and die like how other marines live, and this means they would need to operate somewhat like a normal chapter.

I don't know, but I have a hard time imagining that these different sorts of AL would get along very well.

 

Hope that helps.

[Xenith]

Remember that heresy era space marines are far better specimens than todays marines.

 

It was postualted that they may actually be immortal, never dying of old age, only in battle.

 

With this in mind, it would be possible to have heresy veterans live in real space for 10,000 years. Remember though, that they still need to travel through the warp to travel in the universe, other things may have happened there.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Space Marines don't age so are de facto immortal. Disease does touch them nor age wither them. They can only expect to be cut down in battle. Boom.

[Akylas]

But if all Space Marines are functionally immortal, wouldn't there be more older ones around (Even if it's just old Chaplain Bob reminiscing about the Age of Apostacy while training with some newbies)? It also makes it odd that Blood Angels are supposed to live longer than most Marines. On the other hands, if early generation Marines were superior and less affected by aging, wouldn't there be more 10,000 year old loyalists? Most of the legions were devastated, but there were a lot of Ultramarines about, and Dark Angels to a lesser extent.

 

Instead, reaching around the 1,000 year mark seems extremely rare among the loyalists, while in many traitor legion warbands, you can't throw a rock without hitting someone alive during the Heresy (or likely being messily eviscerated shortly after, but that's another topic), and often in fluff the attitude of Chaos Marines seems to be if you don't remember the Battle of Terra, you're a nobody. As far as an early death in battle being a Chaos Marines seems even more dangerous than a loyalist, or at least as dangerous.

 

Maybe it's a combination of factors. Better "genes" among original legion members, and the way time flows so differently in the Eye of Terror. The Alpha Legion would be less likely to have the latter benefit, but their modus operandi would make them likely to live longer than the average loyalist before getting a bolt to the face or being mauled by a genestealer.

 

Mostly I'm trying to figure how many guys in my warband should be Heresy-era veterans as opposed to being in the more standard couple hundred years or so range.

[Hellios]

But if all Space Marines are functionally immortal, wouldn't there be more older ones around (Even if it's just old Chaplain Bob reminiscing about the Age of Apostacy while training with some newbies)? It also makes it odd that Blood Angels are supposed to live longer than most Marines. On the other hands, if early generation Marines were superior and less affected by aging, wouldn't there be more 10,000 year old loyalists? Most of the legions were devastated, but there were a lot of Ultramarines about, and Dark Angels to a lesser extent.

 

Instead, reaching around the 1,000 year mark seems extremely rare among the loyalists, while in many traitor legion warbands, you can't throw a rock without hitting someone alive during the Heresy (or likely being messily eviscerated shortly after, but that's another topic), and often in fluff the attitude of Chaos Marines seems to be if you don't remember the Battle of Terra, you're a nobody. As far as an early death in battle being a Chaos Marines seems even more dangerous than a loyalist, or at least as dangerous.

 

Maybe it's a combination of factors. Better "genes" among original legion members, and the way time flows so differently in the Eye of Terror. The Alpha Legion would be less likely to have the latter benefit, but their modus operandi would make them likely to live longer than the average loyalist before getting a bolt to the face or being mauled by a genestealer.

 

Mostly I'm trying to figure how many guys in my warband should be Heresy-era veterans as opposed to being in the more standard couple hundred years or so range.

 

Well Space Marines can age... and as they age they slow down and so on... so old guys have a good chance of eating dust at some point. As for the immortal comment... that was made in an offhand way and at a time when Space Marines hadn't been around that long. I however like the idea they COULD be immortal... because it is cool.

 

However as for the Superior marines... those were the marines that the Emperor created himself... the Terran members of the legion... So with the Ultramarines as an example... yes lots of them but I would guess few Terran veterans. As for the Dark Angels... who became the Fallen? Terran vets or Caliban youth? Certainly Blood Angels seem to live longer but they also don't age as fast so it could be connected to the you become slow and die thing... Obviously most Chaos vets that have survived owe it to the warp messing around with time... and if space marines are not immortal... certain followers of chaos are...

 

Sooo the strongest case is that marines are not immortal... I think the coolest is that they are immortal (Eldar used to be immortal!). However the Alpha Legion was genetically superior when compared to the other legions... and what do you expect... the big E had 19 other legions to work the kinks out on :D, so if any Marines could survive without the warp then it would be them B) However even normal warp travel can mess around with time. I hear Alpharius actually got sent back in time to the Birth of Humanity and became the Emperor.

[LPetersson]

Space Marines don't age so are de facto immortal. Disease does touch them nor age wither them. They can only expect to be cut down in battle. Boom.

 

They do actually age and this is fairly commented on in the fluff.

Iacton Qruze for example was quite old and not as sprightly as he used to be, Age of Heresy has a shortstory with some old IW marines and, of course, Space Wolf Long Fangs are old...

 

 

But if all Space Marines are functionally immortal, wouldn't there be more older ones around?

 

Instead, reaching around the 1,000 year mark seems extremely rare among the loyalists, while in many traitor legion warbands, you can't throw a rock without hitting someone alive during the Heresy

 

Well Space Marines can age... and as they age they slow down and so on... so old guys have a good chance of eating dust at some point.

 

Sooo the strongest case is that marines are not immortal...

 

AFAIK, no space marine has ever dies of old age, so they could very easily be immortal. Even normal humans can live 300ish years in the grimdark.

 

However, the law of averages tend to kill space marines. You try to dodge enough bolter rounds, and eventually one of them will get you. Especially when you get a bit old and can't move as fast as you used to.

Hence why there aren't any 10000 years old marines around.

[Nemesor]

back in the days of the Crusade, gene-seed was best understood, and was superior (like everything else) to what we have by M41. It's not difficult to imagine that the Alpha legion still counts some of its oldest members among its ranks. But, after 10,000 years in the long war, don't expect many to be left.

 

Given the style of the Alpha Legion; I can imagine them still very much recruiting in secret and using their own gene-seed to create new recruits. Since they aren't nearly as Chaos as most the other traitors, I expect their gene-seed is still pretty top-notch stuff. Maybe even better than what most loyalists are using in M41.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would point out that in the novel Salamander,

they found a Salamander battle-brother in the hulk of a ship who was still alive despite having crashed on the planet during the Crusade/Heresy-era (don't remember the specifics). He had both feet in the grave, but he was still alive even though his armor had rusted to the point where he couldn't move.

.

 

Personally, I see no problem with Alpha Legionnaires living through the ages with only minimal warp exposure. After, what kills most Loyalist Marines isn't old age, its combat -- and combat isn't Plan A for the the Alphas.

[minigun762]

There is always the possibility of stasis or some similar technology being used. Considering the nature of the Alpha Legion for playing the "long game", it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that they would put some of their members into stasis only to be brought back into play at a later date.

 

This could actually have fairly significant advantages, as it keeps your veterans from being killed by constant fighting while your opponents are slowly dying off. Pretty soon the quality of your opponent's starts to degrade and your advantages in skill and knowledge are increased proportionally. The only drawback I can see is that it would take some time for the newly awaked marines to reacclimate themselves to the current situation but considering the enhanced mental state of marines, that should only be a minor concern.

[Clewz]

Also they could possibly be just sat in the warp on some battle barge or space hulk waiting for the opportune time to strike

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The problem with the age thing is that we don't know, since Space Marines don't really die of old age since they killed in combat. The really old Salamander was still alive after 5,000 or so years if I remember correctly, and only died because he was so injured that they couldn't move him, so that could say something.

[Razrhaghul]

well they could always follow the "sleeper agent" attitude and use their sus-an membrane, locking down their mental/physical functions until something kick starts them back into action. it's a non-warpy and often overlooked-marine capability. and knowing the Alpha Legion, something they would probably employ.

[WarpWhisper]

There is always the possibility of stasis or some similar technology being used. Considering the nature of the Alpha Legion for playing the "long game", it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that they would put some of their members into stasis only to be brought back into play at a later date.

 

This could actually have fairly significant advantages, as it keeps your veterans from being killed by constant fighting while your opponents are slowly dying off. Pretty soon the quality of your opponent's starts to degrade and your advantages in skill and knowledge are increased proportionally. The only drawback I can see is that it would take some time for the newly awaked marines to reacclimate themselves to the current situation but considering the enhanced mental state of marines, that should only be a minor concern.

 

well they could always follow the "sleeper agent" attitude and use their sus-an membrane, locking down their mental/physical functions until something kick starts them back into action. it's a non-warpy and often overlooked-marine capability. and knowing the Alpha Legion, something they would probably employ.

 

I quite like these ideas, as it would allow for a 'high command' to revive for a short period of time, check on the status of operations/recruitment, and then go back into stasis; allowing for skills and knowledge to be passed on, and the same individuals continually overseeing AL activities; making sure that everything is working towards the 'grand plan.'

[Billnye]

I think this is the best way to answer your question:

 

1. Discipline leads to Victory

2. It is Victory in War that brings Immortality

3. Immortality is the Gift of Chaos

4. In exchange, Chaos demands Blood

5. Thus, Blood must be ever spilt

6. Therefore, Eternal Life demands Eternal War

7. Eternal War demands Eternal Discipline

8. Chaos will always have Blood: Yours or Theirs

-The Eight Principles of War, Breviary of the Alpha Legion.

[Akylas]

I quite like these ideas, as it would allow for a 'high command' to revive for a short period of time, check on the status of operations/recruitment, and then go back into stasis; allowing for skills and knowledge to be passed on, and the same individuals continually overseeing AL activities; making sure that everything is working towards the 'grand plan.'

 

I really like those ideas as well. I've been wondering how the different cells stay on target after so long, or if they do.

 

 

I think this is the best way to answer your question:

 

1. Discipline leads to Victory

2. It is Victory in War that brings Immortality

3. Immortality is the Gift of Chaos

4. In exchange, Chaos demands Blood

5. Thus, Blood must be ever spilt

6. Therefore, Eternal Life demands Eternal War

7. Eternal War demands Eternal Discipline

8. Chaos will always have Blood: Yours or Theirs

-The Eight Principles of War, Breviary of the Alpha Legion.

 

That's great. where did it come from?

[Yogi]

In the 2nd ed chaos codex..

 

"Even after the heresy failed the Alpha Legion continued to fight a covert war against the Imperium. Small units of Alpha Legion warriors set up hidden bases in asteroid fields, space hulks and barren systems scattered throughout the galaxy while the bulk of the Legion withdrew to the Eye of Terror."

 

These days I just treat the 2nd ed Codex as gospel.. And ignore anything I don't like. But it answers your original question beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

The Billnyne quote is form soulstorm according to lexicanium. My source.. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Quotes_Chaos

[Akylas]

So Older fluff did have them in the Eye. At least, most of them.

 

And something from Soulstorm that wasn't terrible? This thread's been quite a learning experience.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Yeah Hellios I didn't make the immortal comment in an offhand way I don't see how you could have inferred my demeanor from a one line sentence. The statement comes from the first Horus Heresy novel. So yeah cheers.

[Legatus]

Space Marines are not immortal, and they don't all die in combat.

 

- The Codex Space Wolves states in the description of the recruitment process that as Space Marines they will live for hundreds of years, if they don't die in battle.

 

- A few sources explain that Space Marines can live for hundreds of years.

 

- The Blood Angels Codices repeatedly describe that Blood Angels have an increased lifespan, and that it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to reach a thousand years of age.

 

- Every Chapter has non-combat roles for Marines of advanced age. So those would never be at risk to die in combat. Every Chapter should have 10,000 year old mentors if they were immortal.

 

- The oldest Ultramarine is about 400 years old, while the oldest Space Wolf is somewhere over 700 years, which is described as very uncommon.

 

- The Index Astartes Alpha Legion points out that since the Alpha Legion often operates outside of the Eye of Terror they likely do not benefit of the "unnatural" extended lifespans of the other Chaos Legions.

 

So it is pretty established that Space Marines have a natural lifespan of a few hundred years. But then someone in a Horus Heresy books muses about how "Space Marines are functionally immortal", and all the establsihed background is immediately abandoned. What makes this so odd is that the statement would not even constitute a retcon, since it is a subjective statement, made by someon at a time when Space Marines had only been around for 200 years. Obviously, after 200 years no Space Marine would have died of old age yet. Give it a few hundred more years and that individual would have to retract his statement.

 

And luckily, with "Age of Darkness" we do have a description of Marines dying of old age now. That the background had not specifically described Marines dying of old age had allways been put forward as an argument for their immortality. Fallacious as that may have been. Either way, here is the passage from "Iron Within":

 

"As Krendl growled his narrative, Dantioch remembered the last, dark days on Gholghis. The hrud xenos filth. The infestation of the unseen. The waiting and the dying, as Dantioch’s garrison turned to dust and bones, their armour rusting, bolters jamming and fortress crumbling about them. Only then, after the intense entropic field created by the migratory hrud swarms had aged stone and flesh to ruin, did the rachidian beasts creep out of every nook and crevice to attack, stabbing and slicing with their venomous claws.

Most of all, Dantioch remembered waiting for the Stormbird to lift the survivors out of the remains of Gholghis: Sergeant Zolan, Vastopol the warrior-poet and Techmarine Tavarre. Zolan’s hearts stopped beating aboard the Stormbird, minutes after extraction. Tavarre died of old age in the cruiser infirmary, just before reaching Lesser Damantyne. Vastopol and the Warsmith had considered themselves comparatively fortunate but both had been left crippled with their aged, superhuman bodies."

 

Now, they were under the effect of a xenos apparation, which had created a so called "entropic field". But the effect is described as apparently accelerating the natural aging process of everything within that field. The Marine is described as dying of old age, not due to some toxic radiation or anything like that.

[minigun762]

Now, they were under the effect of a xenos apparation, which had created a so called "entropic field". But the effect is described as apparently accelerating the natural aging process of everything within that field. The Marine is described as dying of old age, not due to some toxic radiation or anything like that.

 

I'm torn about whether that is a good example of marines dying from old age. Accelerated aging simply could have outstripped the marine's normal ability to repair damage to itself, where as real time aging might be kept in check.

[Legatus]

Well, it's just the icing on the cake. The limited lifespan of Space Marines is rather well documented. Perhaps one of the next few books will include a gripping description of how the Chapter Master's venerated Secretarius is eulogized after having died in his sleep at a proud age of 531 years.

[Billnye]

And something from Soulstorm that wasn't terrible? This thread's been quite a learning experience.

 

Lol, that's what I thought also.