Can a deamonhost army work?

[bl00d bath76]

Deamonhosts were and still are very random but at 10 points each they have a lot of things going for them;

 

- strength and toughness 4 (only henchmen to have toughness 4), they have the same statline as scouts except for 1 less initiative but at 3 points cheeper and with a 5+ invun. They are as tough as a normal space marine terminator to kill if power weapons are being used against them yet at a quarter of the price.

-the special abilities can be really nice.

1 - feel no pain - makes the unit a lot more durable against multiple shots as they only have a 5+ invun.

2 - power weapons - usefull against heavy infantry although it has to be remembered that they only get 2 attacks on the charge.

3 - fleet and initiative 10 - This is alright although you have to make the squad only out of deamonhosts to benefit from fleet. the Initiative boost is usefull although the unit wont be making a dent with 1 attack each. The fleet is the usefull thing here allowing you to surprise your opponent and get into assaults tying units up unexpectantly.

4 - +2 strength - Usefull to cause more wounds and can help out against monstrous creatures.

5 - str 4 ap3 blast range 24 - Very usefull marine killer here. With a squad of 10 you will be destroying whole squads of marines out in the open. It also makes deamonhosts a threat to be delt with.

6 - str 8 ap 4 range 24 - awsome tankbusting shot. Will open rhinos with no problem.

 

Overall these abilities forces your opponent to either try to remove them or risk a good roll and one of his units being whiped out. This works both ways however you can get unlucky and get the abilities you really don't need however there are ways to solve this problem;

 

First of all you want big units and a vehicle. Personaly i think a rhino is the best option because it holds more than a razorback. Also a chimera is more expensive but with the deamonhosts you will not be firing from top hatches and the rhino will nearly always be going flat out so the multilazer would be wasted. Therefore a rhino is the best choice by elimination (it also has fortitude).

 

So in your army there would be cortez (for troops) and 1-6x 10 deamonhosts w rhino at 140 points per unit. This is quite cheep and inexpensive for what they do. I will talk about what else to include in your army in a bit.

 

Tactic-wise you want to always be embarked at the start of the game. When you roll for abilities if you get a 5/6 and have a legitimate target within 38 of the rhinos hull then move 12 and disembark 2 and fire. However you should always try and move into the sweet spot of 12 -14 inches away from a foot target. This allows you to assault if you get a 2,3 or 4 whilst being out of range to get the rhino assaulted yourself yet far away to pull back or shoot another target if you get a 5/6. Of course if you move your rhino at least 7 then you should be less worried with getting assaulted as you are hit on 6's. The whole idea of doing this is to try and open up your options so any result from the table is good. You can also use rhinos to block line of sight to deamonhosts who have a shooting power to increase their survivability if the unit can't do anything because of a CCB power. It should be best to try and get close as the majority or the powers are CCB based. Try and get within 14 of enemy units. Outside this and if you role a 1-4 they are practicly useless. Also try and assault a unit with a lot of yours. Deamonhosts arn't great in the assault but if you have 2 full units with a CCB power gone of they can take terminators and survive due to their 5+ invun.

 

So you want the rest of your army to support the deamonhost. Firstly you need long range anti-tank. you cannot rely on getting a 6 as a power and they only have a 24 inch range. I think psyflemen dread fit this perfectly. Use 1-3 depending on the point range. Next we need something that can take out a AV 14 vehicle. Str 8 is the highest so far and glancing cannot make do, futhermore we need a transport for cortez. A 5 man purgation squad with a razorback would work well as the psycannons can help out with AV 14 and deepstrikers. Futhermore With so many rhinos there will be a lot of places to hide and astral aim. You can also make it a las/plas to give you a chance at taking down AV 14 at range. Bearing all this in mind this is what i have come up with at 1,500 points:

 

Cortez =100

 

Deamonhosts x10 =150

rhino w hunter-killer

 

Deamonhosts x10 =150

rhino w hunter-killer

 

Deamonhosts x10 =150

rhino w hunter-killer

 

Deamonhosts x10 =140

rhino

 

Deamonhosts x10 =140

rhino

 

Deamonhosts x10 =140

rhino

 

Purgation knights x5 =270

psycannon x4

Las/plas razorback

 

Dreadnought =135

2x TLAC w psybolt ammo

 

Dreadnought =135

2x TLAC w psybolt ammo

 

Total =1,500 points.

 

Purifiers can be added for higher point games as well as another dreadnought. You also have a HQ space open which sould come in handy.

 

Also deamonhosts could also be used as a staller unit for opponents deathstars. With toughness 4 and a 5+invun a unit of 10 shouldn't get killed in a single round of combat and with the CCB powers they could dish out some hurt as well. Just get an inquisitor or cortez in your force and pop in a cheep 10 man deamonhost unit.

 

Overall thats my take on deamonhosts and that used correctly to make all the abilities usefull they can be a serious threat. If people could comment on what they think of these tactics i have mentioned and ways to improve them that would be greatly appreciated.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

When you roll for abilities if you get a 5/6 and have a legitimate target within 38 of the rhinos hull then move 12 and disembark 2 and fire.

You do know you can fire out of the top of a rhino and chimera? 2 for the rhino and 5 for the chimera.

[Azekai]

Elric, what is the point of quoting an entire post, especially one as long as this?

 

That being said, this looks like a very fun idea. On paper(?) it seems like it could work . . . any chance some GK plays want to try it?

[Elric the Silvercoat]

ok I thought I only quoted the part about the disembarking to shot thing I will fix it.

[Marid]

I have to say, that would definitely be unique.

 

The problems I see right away, are 1) that Coteaz doesn't have anything to do and 2) I think the points spent on the Purgation Squad could be better spent on Coteaz and Chimeras for the 'hosts. One Purgation Squad seems pretty lonely, but the list could sure use some stronger shooting. The Chimeras will help. Another Rifleman Dread?

[bl00d bath76]

Good point about the top hatches. However you want rvery deamonhost to be able to fire. By using the top hatch of a chimera you are reducing the firepower by half. Furthermore many times it will get shaken and stunned. It is essential to keep the transport moving which is why you need a rhino with fortitude. Also you want to get close with this unit so your opponent is more likely to get side shots. This doesn't matter with rhinos. It's also easier to make cOver as you can turn them sideways. Therefore I would keep rhinos.

 

Okay what does Cortez dO I'n this army?

1) add to shooting of purgation squad

2) allow unit to get a free shot at deepstrikers 

3) boost the unit I'n ccb increasing the survivability of the squad.

 

Why are the purgation squad needed?

1) ability to pen a landraider 

2) make good use of Cortez I've been expecting you ability.

3) plenty of cover you abuse astral aim.

 

The main point here is to get a unit to go with the hosts and to get rid of av14. That is a big weakness of this list. The only other units I can think of working are a

 purifier squad I'n a rhino.

 Dread w mm and HF

 

For example a unit of purifiers would look like this:

Purifiers x9 =293

 Halberd x6

 Hammer x1

 Psycannon x2

 

This still has a lot of shooting but are a lot better at ccb.

 

I'n the end it comes down to personal preferences.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

I dont have my book in front of me, but when you roll for demonhost ability, do you roll for the squad of demonhosts or each on individually?

[bl00d bath76]

one roll for the whole squad.

[Drachnon]

I think this list will have too much of a random factor for most serious players. Having to roll your powers again each turn you can't make a game plan beyond your current turn as in the next your units will all have changed their abilities by then. In the same sense having an ability like feel no pain sounds good as adding survivability but if the opponent has two units of daemon hosts in range of his bolters and only 1 has feel no pain he will just target the one without and change targets next turn.

In terms of assault power even with the best CC boost for the situation I don't think they'll ever be truely capable of winning against the assault units of most armies, for starters without charging you are pretty much guaranteed to lose. Lets assume you have an ability that helps in close combat (either +2S, I10 + fleet, or power weapons).

 

The chances of getting the charge of aren't that great and only slightly increase with fleet but lets for arguments sake say you did manage (regardless of what you rolled for power).

 

The following scenarios are against marines and orks:

Against marines: 8 assault marines without sergeant or special weapons. (based on 140 points cost the daemonhosts + transport)

1. You rolled initiative and strike first, you hit half, wound half and a 3rd actually cause casualties. 20 attacks /2 /2 /3 = 1.67 kills. Afterwards marines attack with 12 attacks (2 died), hit 2/3 wound 1/2 kills 2/3 = 2.67 kills

2. You rolled +2S. Marines go first with 2 attacks each. 16 attacks 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound 2/3 kills = 3.55 kills. 6.5 daemon hostswith 13 attacks hit 1/2, wound 5/6 kills 1/3 = 1.8

3. You rolled power weapons. Marines go first with 2 attacks each. 16 attacks 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound 2/3 kills = 3.55 kills. 6.5 daemon hostswith 13 attacks hit 1/2, wound 1/2 kills all = 3.25

As you can see here power weapons would help you the most but would still be most likely a loss (also keep in mind that this is your charge and would normally be the moment you deal most damage)

 

Against orks: 23 orks no nob or special weapons

1. You rolled initiative and strike first. 20 attacks, hit 1/2, wound 1/2 kill 5/6 = 4.1. 19 orks retaliate with 3 attacks each (57). hit 2/3 wound 1/3 kill 2/3 = 8.44 kills (the initiative doesn't help here)

2. You rolled +2S. 20 attacks, hit 1/2, wound 5/6 kill 5/6 = 6.94 kills. 16 orks retaliate with 48 attacks. Hit 2/3 wound 1/3 kills 2/3 = 7.11

3. You rolled power weapons. 20 attacks, hit 1/2, wound 1/2 kill all = 5 kills. 18 orks retaliate with 54 attacks Hit 2/3 wound 1/3 kills 2/3 = 8 kills

Again even with your best power on the charge you wouldn't have a victory.

 

Now I won't do the math for when you get charged. It's save to say that with the latter orks would steam roll you, in two cases they would strike simultaneous, in all their to wound chances increase, plus their output of attack increases with 33%. And against marines you would be double handicapped with the 50% more attacks (from 2 to 3 per model) while you lose half.

If neither side charges you lose half your attacks which I think is the biggest problem with the daemon hosts as assault squad you at least want 2 attacks per model without charging. At the same time the marines and orks only get better because they have half the casualties from when you strike first and charge giving them more attacks to retaliate.

 

just as a summary here's what was in your favour and what not for my caculations:

Favoured:

Charge

One of the 3 powers increasing your strength in melee

No difficult terrain ignoring your I10 power

No special abilities for the opponent

 

Unfavoured:

The number of opponents were based on cost of squad including transport (assumption was that this was what gave you the charge)

No special weapons, marines carrying a melta or flamer would have 1 less attacks and a sergeant with power weapon would cost the same as 2 marines but would hardly give any increase in effectiveness.

These were slugga boyz, shoota boyz have 1 attack less per model because they don't have the second close combat weapon (then again this was to compare them with assault units)

 

I'm not going to do any math on shooting because its getting late though I guess that even with things stacked in your favour (no cover and always an shooty power) would still not give you the investment return you'd need from these units.

[uberschveinen]

The biggest issue you face is that Daemonhosts are very crappy. All but one of the rolls you can make, that being the 6, you can have a unit that does the same job better and all the time. A unit that has a 1 in 6 chance of being a practical choice, regardless of the tabletop conditions, is just bad. If you want FNP or high Strength, Arcos have both all the time and not just one sometimes. If you want high Initiative or Power Weapons, DCAs have both all the time and not just one sometimes. If you want the blast, Psykers can do that bigger and better all the time, and from further away.

 

Randomness is extremely bad, because it makes it hard to predict how you will need to use your units. Sure as hell an actual military force wouldn't, say, deploy a Commando unit specialised in CQC to storm a building if the day before the assault they might suddenly decide they were Artillery. A random element is only good if either:

 

a) Every single one of the outcomes goes to the same end, allowing you to plan their use but not their efficacy - this is not the case here, as a different result radically changes the Daemonhost's best use.

B) The randomness is a one-time event, allowing you to use them to full effect thereafter - this is not the case here, as you will never know what the hell they will do.

c) The random chart contains a or several results so good that it is worth paying the full price for a chance of the event - this is absolutely not the case here, since there is only one result that does not make them WORSE than other choices, and it basically makes them half-price Psyflemen without the hard-to-kill.

 

What this means is that they are just not very good, especially when this limited slot has so many very useful choices.

 

Now, if you know this and just don't care, well, good. It's not always about the best unit, but fun. The best use for Daemonhosts, though, is to put them in a position where you can maximise the chances of using any given result, by keeping them within 12" of the enemy and hope that their badness moves them down the target priority chain. Don't waste a vehicle on them, they're questionable enough at 120 points. If you roll a shooting result, shoot. If you roll a combat result, charge. That's really all there is they can do reasonably.