Is a Henchmen Psyker a Psyker?

[thade]

From this thread...

 

And yet, none of the Psyker henchmen actually have the Psyker special rule.

 

Psyker Henchmen are not "Psykers" for the purposes of the Cullexus.

Devil's advocate time!

 

Show me where in the Cullexus Assassin's entry - or anywhere else - where it states that the Animus Speculum only benefits from models/units with the Psyker rule. What it says is this:

 

For every Psyker within 12" of the Culexus Assassin, add +1 to the animus speculum's Assault value.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

It's funny, because these henchmen have the word "Psyker" in there statline and it is their name. They are Psykers. Each of them. To further prove my point, see the Psyker henchman entry on p51.

 

All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests, etc.

Now isn't THAT frustrating? It's like telling us that RAI is required here. Et cetera? What are we supposed to infer from that? Well, it does go on to tell us that they all use the same power, as one unit/model once per turn, no matter how many psykers are in the unit. Also, if they suffer Perils, the entire unit suffers Perils (i.e. they all die). So that's the et cetera.

 

Ironically, your counter argument could work in reverse; that models with the Psyker rule do not benefit the Culexus...only the Psyker henchmen do. I bet we can agree that's dumb. :lol: But perhaps not as dumb as Assault 38 S5 Ap 1. @_@

 

SOMEBODY PLEASE STOP ME.

This is a huge hole. It doesn't take much to imagine getting that single model up to 50+ shots that are S5 AP1. Sure, it's only 12" and your army can nuke itself (Psyker henchmen aren't the best at what they do) but the core question I have is if this flies at all.

 

Literally it's the "etc" that gets me. Remember back when I argued (at great length) that a LR can fire from Smoke due to PotMS, because "allowed to fire zero guns + one gun = one gun"? And the counter argument was that the list of examples in the LR's PotMS entry was exhaustive? Well, the FAQ told me I was wrong...and here we are again.

 

In the Psyker entry it does not say that a Psyker henchmen unit counts as one Psyker for the purposes of the Culexus's freak-show cannon. If the list of examples after "etc" is exhaustive, the road to 50 AP1 S5 shots is a short one. Fill a few Chimeras with them and you've got a terrifying home-base defense unit.

 

Thoughts?

[Chengar Qordath]

I'd be inclined to say that a psyker henchman squad counts as a single psyker, with the etc. basically standing in for any other situation where the number of psykers matter. Of course, I'll admit that my opinion is heavily biased by the fact that I'm pretty sure RAI is not against letting a Culexus get 50 shots.

[Grey Mage]

Im inclined to say they dont count for beans, seeing as none of them have the Psyker special rule. The rules for using the power imply that, at best, they count as a single psycker.

[dswanick]

Well, turn the question around. If you were a Grey Knights player, how many models would you argue should be affected by the Perils portion of a Mindstrike missile attack on a unit of 12 Psyker Henchmen? If you would argue that the unit only suffers one Perils attack total for the whole "Psychic" unit then they should also only provide one bonus for the Colexus. If you would argue that each one should suffer his own Perils test for being a Psyker then you should also add +1 to the Colexus' weapon for each model.

 

The thing that bothers me about this whole debate is that it takes a special rule from the Psychic Barrage psychic power rule and applies it to a myriad of other, unrelated situations. Unlike the Brotherhood of Psykers rule which clearly states that it applies to all facets of Psychic usage and gives clear rules for how to interpret which model is affected by negative effects, the Psychic Barrage special rule only seems to be written within the context of the unit using that power and fails to give specific direction on how it might be applied to anything else.

[thade]

...the Psychic Barrage special rule only seems to be written within the context of the unit using that power and fails to give specific direction on how it might be applied to anything else.

Really, it should be clear whether the unit or the models each are Psykers or what they are; or at least the Psychic Barrage power should say "the unit is a psyker for the purposes of this power alone" or something similar.

[Grey Mage]

The thing that bothers me about this whole debate is that it takes a special rule from the Psychic Barrage psychic power rule and applies it to a myriad of other, unrelated situations. Unlike the Brotherhood of Psykers rule which clearly states that it applies to all facets of Psychic usage and gives clear rules for how to interpret which model is affected by negative effects, the Psychic Barrage special rule only seems to be written within the context of the unit using that power and fails to give specific direction on how it might be applied to anything else.

If we want to be technical, the unit cant even use the power. Why? Because they dont have any rule or wargear that gives them the ability to attempt a psychic test.

 

It would appear- based on how their 'psychic shooting attack' is worded- that there counts a single psyker in the squad no matter how many actual models are involved. Because of this, I would say the culexis, mindstrikes, and anything else we want to bring in will get on 'psyker' as their target.

 

If my opponent is disinclined to such a compromise, then RAW should prevail- they cant use their power, they dont count towards the culexis, and are basicly just some guy with a laspistol.

[dswanick]

If my opponent is disinclined to such a compromise, then RAW should prevail- they cant use their power, they dont count towards the culexis, and are basicly just some guy with a laspistol.

But that way leads to madness. Consider that the Space Marine Librarian has the Psyker rule which states he is a Psyker as described in the BRB. However, Varro Tigurius has the Master Psyker rule, which states that he knows all of the Space Marine Librarian powers, but doesn't state that he is a Psyker as described in the BRB - thus he may know the power but he can't use the power per your argument(shades of the old Vehicles and Cover saves here). :) The same thing goes for Rune Priests and Njal.

 

I think that, reasonably, the fact that they are called Henchmen Psykers and have access to a Psychic Shooting attack is sufficient to argue that they are, in fact, Psykers. And while they may each, individually, be psychers they only have access to a Psychic Shooting attack which requires pooled ability to use. This argues to me that they would count individually for Mindstrike missiles and Colexus buffing. It does seem more reasonable to me that the unit should count, but I do see the legitimacy of the arguement for individual counting.

[Grey Mage]

Actually... it doesnt. Tigurius has the hood of hellfire- wich allows him to cast three psychic powers a turn.

 

Rune Priests have the 'psyker' rule listed in their profile.

 

Njal's 'Master psyker' rule not only gives him knowledge of all the SW psychic powers but specificly allows him to use 2 per turn.

 

There is not one other case, besides these henchmen, that I can find in the game of a unit having a psychic power it -RAW- cant use.

[thade]

What about the fact that they are named "Psyker"? The BRB Psyker page talks specifically about Psykers; Librarians aren't "Psyker" in name, so they need "Psyker" (or some equivalent) in their Special Rules section to denote it. These henchmen are Psykers; that's what they're called. Each rule on the Psyker page applies to them except for those that are superseded by their own rules: namely that they can only use their power as if the unit is a single Psyker and that they all suffer Perils together.

 

It doesn't say anywhere that a model needs the "Psyker" special rule; there is no such USR. There is only p50 in the BRB which talks specifically about Psykers. Well, here they are: the Psykers we've heard so much about. They don't need a special rule "Psyker" because they are that.

 

This is paramount ambiguity, GW. What have you done this time?

[Grey Mage]

Every other unit in the game, including 'psyker battle squads' have the psyker rule or a particular, explicit, rule that allows them to use psychic powers.

 

Its a Special Rule- just like "Independent Character'.

[thade]

Every other unit in the game, including 'psyker battle squads' have the psyker rule or a particular, explicit, rule that allows them to use psychic powers.

 

Its a Special Rule- just like "Independent Character'.

Interesting.

 

I think this is clearly an oversight, one way or another. I haven't really stated my RAI stance because it's the one I think we all have: specifically that the unit as a whole is the "Psyker" in question and that a Culexus in range would only get +1 for the unit, regardless of it's size. I was hoping I'd missed something, but newp. RAW is a complete fail here. Can't really settle either way.

[Grey Mage]

I think it likely a case of bad wording aswell, and I hope ti see it in the next update of the GK faq.

[Something Wycked]

Im inclined to say they dont count for beans, seeing as none of them have the Psyker special rule.

:P Even after the GK FAQ's precedent of defining Daemons? It seems GW wants us to just know when something is a Daemon or a Psyker instead of depending on them to put the correct USR on their profile.

 

The rules for using the power imply that, at best, they count as a single psycker.

Exactly this. "... counts as a single psyker for the purposes of psychic tests, etc...."

 

The problem is knowing just how far to take that "etc.", but I'm confident that it should apply to every case.

[PyronusSouria]

I think that the "etc: refers to tests, because of the blurb about Leadership value after.

 

As for this Culexus, I believe that each each one should be counted as a separate Psyker for the purposes of determining the assault value of the weapon. The name Psyker assigns the properties of a Psyker to this unit. The reason Librarians and special characters have the Psyker special rule is because their name isn't "Jim the Psyker."

[Grey Mage]

Not really- somethings name, and its properties, are not connected. They can imply things- but those implications are not always accurate.

 

Example: Greenland and Iceland. Greenland is far colder and less hospitable, containing significantly less greenery, than Iceland.

 

A bolter doesnt bolt things together, as its name would imply.

 

And there is nothing funny about a 'Death Jester'.

 

Saying that the name of the unit includes the word psyker- or indeed, is the word psyker- isnt enough to prove that they follow the rules for psykers.

[PyronusSouria]

Yes, but if you look up the reasons behind the names for Iceland and Greenland, they make sense. And while a bolter may be thought of as something that bolts things together, it's proper name is boltgun, which is also a very accurate descriptor-name. And they're called Death Jesters because they deal death and resemble Jesters.

[Grey Mage]

Boltgun still doesnt shoot bolts, greenland still isnt green, and not all member of a psyker battle squad are psykers.

 

Not everything is as seen on the tin.

[Drachnon]

If I was ruling as a judge over this that any models or unit capable of using abilities/powers defined as psychic are considered psykers. For the Psyker henchmen this would mean that yes they are psykers as they can use a psychic shooting attack.

 

For the other question I think we should take into consideration that they didn't make the psykers a brotherhood of psykers (with perhaps an exception for perils of the warp). Making the unit 1 psyker would mean they get all the benefits of being only 1 model against anti psyker abilities/powers which I think was something they were trying to avoid. What I think they were trying to do was say make only one test / dice roll where you would otherwise roll for each psyker in the squad to streamline the game a little.

[Something Wycked]

Yes, but if you look up the reasons behind the names for Iceland and Greenland, they make sense.

If I remember correctly, the origin of the name Greenland was a deception by the man who found the place and claimed it as his own. He wanted to entice people to move there, so he called it... Green Land. The name is a deception, not a descriptor... but it does make sense that its named that way :P

 

However.

 

IIRC, the psychic power that is in the unit entry for the Psyker states that they may use it. Even though they don't have the Psyker rule.

[timmytool]

Boltgun still doesnt shoot bolts, greenland still isnt green, and not all member of a psyker battle squad are psykers.

 

Not everything is as seen on the tin.

 

I dont know about Iceland and Greenland but I do know that a boltgun does indeed shoot "bolts" its in the weapon description in most/all SM codexs

[Grey Mage]

Boltgun still doesnt shoot bolts, greenland still isnt green, and not all member of a psyker battle squad are psykers.

Not everything is as seen on the tin.

I dont know about Iceland and Greenland but I do know that a boltgun does indeed shoot "bolts" its in the weapon description in most/all SM codexs

And again... the english language defeats proper communication:

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The name Psyker assigns the properties of a Psyker to this unit. The reason Librarians and special characters have the Psyker special rule is because their name isn't "Jim the Psyker."

 

Using the "foo" rule (it's for another game basically saying if "foo" is contained in the description then it counts as "foo") opens up a huge problem though.

 

With GW's lack-luster attention to detail alot of inconsistencies crop up.

 

For example "And they shal know no fear"...the rules specifically states that Space Marines auto pass re-group etc...but almost nothing contains Space Marine either in its name, unit type, or special rules. Hence by the "foo" rule almost every "Space Marine" cannot use ATSKNF.

 

But then you say "It has the special rule though.." to which I respond that GW has given units rules they can't actually use before for the sake of "completeness".

 

Then you say that because it's the Space Marine codex everything inside counts as a "Space Marine", at which point all the henchmen lists become "Grey Knights"...all Space Wolves become "wolves" which are cavalry...etc, etc...

 

Obviously this would be ludicrous...hence why things have special rules.

[dswanick]

The name Psyker assigns the properties of a Psyker to this unit. The reason Librarians and special characters have the Psyker special rule is because their name isn't "Jim the Psyker."

 

Using the "foo" rule (it's for another game basically saying if "foo" is contained in the description then it counts as "foo") opens up a huge problem though.

 

With GW's lack-luster attention to detail alot of inconsistencies crop up.

 

For example "And they shal know no fear"...the rules specifically states that Space Marines auto pass re-group etc...but almost nothing contains Space Marine either in its name, unit type, or special rules. Hence by the "foo" rule almost every "Space Marine" cannot use ATSKNF.

 

But then you say "It has the special rule though.." to which I respond that GW has given units rules they can't actually use before for the sake of "completeness".

 

Then you say that because it's the Space Marine codex everything inside counts as a "Space Marine", at which point all the henchmen lists become "Grey Knights"...all Space Wolves become "wolves" which are cavalry...etc, etc...

 

Obviously this would be ludicrous...hence why things have special rules.

 

Too which I would respond - Daemon Princes, summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion upgrade, Daemonhosts ...

Basically this one is really going to need a FAQ to resolve. I'm sure GW is working furiously on it as we debate. ;)

[Something Wycked]

Too which I would respond - Daemon Princes, summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion upgrade, Daemonhosts ...

Basically this one is really going to need a FAQ to resolve. I'm sure GW is working furiously on it as we debate. ;)

I agree with the first half of your statement: GW has shown, with the GK FAQ, that they expect us to just know when Daemons (and by extension, Psykers) are affected by rules that affect them.

 

But I don't agree with this needing a FAQ :D

 

A Psyker in a Henchman squad is... A Psyker. And so are the rest of them in there. But they count as one for... everything.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The problem also stems from the power gamers who want them all to count as psykers when they're shooting, but for none (or at least only one) to count when they get hit by mindstrikes. ;)

 

GW should be clearer.

 

When in doubt 1,2,3 - 4,5,6.

 

When it's in tourney ask the opponent what they think before starting and get the TO to rule then...not turn 4 with 2 objectives at stake (as usually seems to be the case)