Is a Henchmen Psyker a Psyker?

[thade]

Im inclined to say they dont count for beans, seeing as none of them have the Psyker special rule.

:huh: Even after the GK FAQ's precedent of defining Daemons? It seems GW wants us to just know when something is a Daemon or a Psyker instead of depending on them to put the correct USR on their profile.

If this falls under the "What? Are you daft?" GW fallback rule, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they've finally gone too far with it.

[Something Wycked]

While I agree that GW can always use more clarity in their rules, this one is fairly clear, imo. The unit's name is Psyker and 99% of the rules listed for the model talk about its one purpose for being on the board- casting a psychic power. To me, that's big, bold letters stating that the unit is, in fact, a Psyker. :huh: (Especially when considering the GK FAQ, re: Daemons.)

 

For the second part of the original question, part of those rules state that whether you take 1 Psyker or 12 Psykers, they count as a single Psyker for psychic tests "and etc."

 

"Et cetera" is extraordinarily broad; by RAW, what you have is a number of infantry bases that all make up the physical body of one Psyker, except for things that don't pertain to Psyker rules. Such as: squad coherency, Dangerous Terrain tests, wound allocation, etc.

[dswanick]

OK, so reading the rules for the Psyker Henchmen unit in total. It would seem that everyone is in agreement that this unit counts as a single Psyker for purposes of the Culexus' Animus Speculum (adding just a +1 to the Assault 2 for the entire unit), but for purposes of being targeted by a Mindstrike Missile they would each be affected by a Perils of the Warp attack?

[thade]

They all suffer Perils if one suffers Perils... uh oh

[yperihitikos]

According to BRB contents "Psyker" isn't a special rule. It's a category. In p.50 the text refers to "psykers" in general.

 

In GK codex, in p.51, Psyker henchmen are described as psykers. There is no need for a psyker special rule for them because they fulfil the BRB's description. It's the same as the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon and plasma weapons.

 

I find that the all psykers-one psyker refers to how they are treated when they use their psychic power "Psychic Barrage" and not in every situation, because it's included in the psychic power's description and not in the main body of the rules. The fact that they can be hit as one by a power that causes Perils of the Warp is a window written on purpose.

 

Culexus adds +1 for every "Psyker", which could mean that only the "Psykers" are counted. Not every psyker model. In the codex, "Psykers" exist and they are in p.51 with their own description.

 

The assassin's +1 doesn't affect the Psykers in any way, so I don't think that they are subject to the rule of psychic barrage all psykers-one psyker.

[thade]

At the end of the day, that is clear enough for me, but the whole "Psyker" is a name/type/category/rule/special rule/there is no actual clear delineation between these things dilemma is still at large.

 

It's not a bullet proof rule set; things like this only serve to hammer that point home. If anybody tries to tell you that they can get Assault 20+ out of a few packs of Psykers, kindly ask them to switch to Warmachine.

[appiah4]

Assuming that we've established (at least in my mind) that they have the Psyker USR..

 

Would an Assault Squad of 10 Marines, who are Jump Infantry, use a rule, or are targeted by a rule, that affects 'all Jump Infantry', would they be subject to it once, or as many times as there are bodies in the unit?

 

To me, the answer is obvious, and resolves the whole debate.

 

There are as many psykers as there are bodies in the unit. The problem is probably that GW didn't really think the assasin's rules through well enough.

[thade]

Assuming that we've established (at least in my mind) that they have the Psyker USR..

 

Would an Assault Squad of 10 Marines, who are Jump Infantry, use a rule, or are targeted by a rule, that affects 'all Jump Infantry', would they be subject to it once, or as many times as there are bodies in the unit?

 

To me, the answer is obvious, and resolves the whole debate.

 

There are as many psykers as there are bodies in the unit. The problem is probably that GW didn't really think the assasin's rules through well enough.

I hate to be pedantic (really, I hate to belabor this thread at all) BUT these are not the same thing. A single assault marine is NOT called a "jump infantry"; however, a single Psyker in a squad of Psyker henchmen IS called a "Psyker". That is the crux of the issue.

 

Again, I do think it was clearly their intent to have the entire Psyker unit count as a single psyker (per the category/rule/whatever-it-is) for the purposes of things like anti-psyker weaponry and the Culexus's weapons. That it is ambiguous at all was the entire reason I started this thread. It's still ambiguous, hardly obvious, but I while I see errors in your logic I certainly agree with your conclusion.

[appiah4]

I hate to be pedantic (really, I hate to belabor this thread at all) BUT these are not the same thing. A single assault marine is NOT called a "jump infantry"; however, a single Psyker in a squad of Psyker henchmen IS called a "Psyker". That is the crux of the issue.

 

Again, I do think it was clearly their intent to have the entire Psyker unit count as a single psyker (per the category/rule/whatever-it-is) for the purposes of things like anti-psyker weaponry and the Culexus's weapons. That it is ambiguous at all was the entire reason I started this thread. It's still ambiguous, hardly obvious, but I while I see errors in your logic I certainly agree with your conclusion.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Jump Pack confers the status of being Jump Infantry to each and every model equipped with it. It does not need to be CALLED a Jump Infantry.

 

Just like the Henchmen not being specifically given the Psyker trait, but their description and rules makes it blatantly obvious.

 

So IMO the crux is the same. More so than I at first saw, even.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Assuming that we've established (at least in my mind) that they have the Psyker USR..

 

Would an Assault Squad of 10 Marines, who are Jump Infantry, use a rule, or are targeted by a rule, that affects 'all Jump Infantry', would they be subject to it once, or as many times as there are bodies in the unit?

 

To me, the answer is obvious, and resolves the whole debate.

 

There are as many psykers as there are bodies in the unit. The problem is probably that GW didn't really think the assasin's rules through well enough.

Except that the rules for the unit in question says that they are a single psyker for "the purposes of psychic tests, etc". Etc then being any and all effects that hit psykers. So, 1 psyker, as a collective entity, for the purposes of any and all game rules.

[appiah4]

Assuming that we've established (at least in my mind) that they have the Psyker USR..

 

Would an Assault Squad of 10 Marines, who are Jump Infantry, use a rule, or are targeted by a rule, that affects 'all Jump Infantry', would they be subject to it once, or as many times as there are bodies in the unit?

 

To me, the answer is obvious, and resolves the whole debate.

 

There are as many psykers as there are bodies in the unit. The problem is probably that GW didn't really think the assasin's rules through well enough.

Except that the rules for the unit in question says that they are a single psyker for "the purposes of psychic tests, etc". Etc then being any and all effects that hit psykers. So, 1 psyker, as a collective entity, for the purposes of any and all game rules.

 

True, but "for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc." is so vague and ambiguous that I don't know where to approach this perspective.

 

The text you refer to, as previously noted by another poster, has etc. followed immediately by a blurb about Ld tests, so I could a easily argue that being the target of an attack and contributing to the statline of a weapon/attack has no relevance to the et cettera list inferred here.. I mean, if we'll go that far, why don't they count as one psyker for the purpose of taking toughness tests/suffering wounds as well and rightaway die when they suffer their first wound?

 

And of course you could argue otherwise and we could never agree.. But where do you draw that line?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Assuming that we've established (at least in my mind) that they have the Psyker USR..

 

Would an Assault Squad of 10 Marines, who are Jump Infantry, use a rule, or are targeted by a rule, that affects 'all Jump Infantry', would they be subject to it once, or as many times as there are bodies in the unit?

 

To me, the answer is obvious, and resolves the whole debate.

 

There are as many psykers as there are bodies in the unit. The problem is probably that GW didn't really think the assasin's rules through well enough.

Except that the rules for the unit in question says that they are a single psyker for "the purposes of psychic tests, etc". Etc then being any and all effects that hit psykers. So, 1 psyker, as a collective entity, for the purposes of any and all game rules.

 

True, but "for the purpose of Psychic tests, etc." is so vague and ambiguous that I don't know where to approach this perspective.

 

The text you refer to, as previously noted by another poster, has etc. followed immediately by a blurb about Ld tests, so I could a easily argue that being the target of an attack and contributing to the statline of a weapon/attack has no relevance to the et cettera list inferred here.. I mean, if we'll go that far, why don't they count as one psyker for the purpose of taking toughness tests/suffering wounds as well and rightaway die when they suffer their first wound?

 

And of course you could argue otherwise and we could never agree.. But where do you draw that line?

I draw the line at "etc" meaning any and all game purposes relating to psykers. They count as a single model for psychic tests, for the Culexus, for the Crucible of Malediction (and thus losing only a singel model), and so forth and so on.

[thade]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Jump Pack confers the status of being Jump Infantry to each and every model equipped with it. It does not need to be CALLED a Jump Infantry.

Okay, I think I see your confusion. I believe you are making the same underlying (and hidden, even to you) assumption that they are: that the rule(s) in question refer to units and not models. That is, however, the very linchpin in the issue.

 

The Culexus's gun gains +1 shot for each Psyker in range.

 

A member of a Psyker infantry unit is in-name/on it's stat-line a "Psyker".

 

The weapon is intended to increase +1 shot per psyker unit that is in range; on that much we agree. It doesn't say this however: it says it increases shots per "Psyker". And that is the problem. What's a single model in a Psyker Henchmen unit called? It's called a "Psyker". In the absence of a more clearly worded Culexus weapon rule and/or a more clearly worded Psyker Henchmen unit rule, we are left to guess as to how it should work. Do I agree that it should work per unit instead of per model? Yes. Does it say this unambiguously? No, it does not.

 

Let me emphasis (again) that I think, while it may not be clear, it definitely makes sense that a Cullexus should not be able to garner 30+ shots. It's not a far cry to assume they meant "unit", as you are doing.

[Hellios]

And there is nothing funny about a 'Death Jester'.

Actually Death Jesters have been mentioned to have a sense of humour...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

And there is nothing funny about a 'Death Jester'.

Actually Death Jesters have been mentioned to have a sense of humour...

"What do you call two Emperor's Children playing catch with a meltabomb on a 1 second timer? A good outcome either way."

[yperihitikos]

If the +1 for Psykers means that it works only with Psyker Henchmen and not with any psyker, I think that it wouldn't be too unbalanced to count every Psyker model. The Psykers should be on foot and the group should move packed, which is a fair disadvantage for the extra shots you get. The range of the weapon is relatively low. 12"-18" range will have as a result that the group should already have casualties and the henchmen would be vulnerable to a counter shoot/attack.

[thade]

If the +1 for Psykers means that it works only with Psyker Henchmen and not with any psyker, I think that it wouldn't be too unbalanced to count every Psyker model. The Psykers should be on foot and the group should move packed, which is a fair disadvantage for the extra shots you get. The range of the weapon is relatively low. 12"-18" range will have as a result that the group should already have casualties and the henchmen would be vulnerable to a counter shoot/attack.

You should read the rest of the thread, especially the OPs. In summary:

 

Based on your interpretation there: imagine a Coteaz list with four units of Psykers in Chimeras and the Cullexus in the middle of them. 12 Psykers in a Chimera * 4 Chimeras = +48 shots for the Cullexus.

 

This is in fact imbalanced.

[yperihitikos]

A squad in a Chimera is mentally and not physically there. On the table there would be 4 Chimeras and no Psykers. I can't remember any rule covering this but even if a squad in a chimera was only +1 what happens when only the driver of the transport is within 12" and the passenger area isn't? As I understand the rules, you count only the models on the table.

[thade]

As I understand the rules, you count only the models on the table.

Even if what you say is true, disembarking all of the Psykers and huddling them behind their APCs would still break the Cullexus under the interpretation I've been analyzing in this thread.

 

However, what you say is not true.

 

Without my books in hand I can't drill it down; however, while a model in an APC cannot be targeted, it is certainly considered to be on the table for many other purposes: auras (consider Sanguine Priests affect all models within 6" of the APC they're in), psychic powers that are not targeted (Shield of Sanguinus, Null Zone), and banners (command squad banners that all re-rolls on failed morale checks), and techmarines can (per FAQs) repair transports that they are inside of. Also, many APCs have fire points from which models can fire. NONE of these things would be possible if a model in a transport didn't count as being on the table. Are those psykers on the table while embarked? Yes. Can they be targeted? No, that's what the transport afford them (along with mobility).

[yperihitikos]

-How would you treat a squad in a Chimera that isn't fully within 12" ? If you only count the passenger's area, then...

 

-How would you treat 3 Psykers in a Chimera when only the half passenger's area of the vehicle is within 12" ?

[thade]

-How would you treat a squad in a Chimera that isn't fully within 12" ? If you only count the passenger's area, then...

 

-How would you treat 3 Psykers in a Chimera when only the half passenger's area of the vehicle is within 12" ?

I'm afraid I understand neither of these statements.

 

Are you trying to suggest that a Psyker (or any) model only effectively occupies it's own base's area and not the full table area of the transport it's riding in? If that is the case, you are mistaken: see the precedents I listed in my last response to you (e.g. Sanguine Priest auras being a full 6" from the hull). In effect, a model counts as being the transport for the purposes of its aura. It's base is everywhere in that region all at once. Consider a theoretical Rhino with a Sanguine Priest, a Banner holder, and two Librarians. In any turn where both Librarians cast different aura-based powers, anybody within 6" of the transport would receive buffs from all four of those models. Why then would an inverse case (such as this, where the Cullexus alone receives this weird buff that Psykers unwittingly project for him).

 

I can't recall offhand the range on the Cullexus's ability, but I believe it is 12" (though it could be 6", I don't have my codex at work). That said, if the Chimera carrying any number of Psykers in it is within that range, he gets the buff (for either the single Psyker unit, a +1, or the broken version, +1/Psyker model in the Chimera).

[yperihitikos]

At first, I believed that the presence of the models wasn't necessary and then I read the last INAT where they ruled that the crucible of malediction can't affect embarked units, which seemed logical enough, but now that I looked at it again they had marked it as "rules change". My mistake.

 

Further than that, 4 chimeras, 40 psyckers and an assassin would have many drawbacks. They would be at least 750pts + 100pts for Coteaz. The assassin should get a transport (+ 40pts for a rhino or 55pts for one more Chimera) otherwise the group would be too slow. 800pts (almost half of your army) is only the cost of that one group that should stay together almost the whole game. 4 scoring units that spend the game tightly packed and 4-5 AV 12 vehicles that don't have the luxury to be immobilized or even stunned. Most armies won't find it difficult to take out or damage these transports in the first two turns. And all of these for 4 blasts and only one killed unit from the assassin (if he can have 40+ shots). At 2000pts it could be viable as long as you won't face any MSU list, but under that level it would be another one trick deathstar. And even more vulnerable the any other.

[thade]

...then I read the last INAT...

There's one issue. :) INAT isn't OR, which is what this board is. The merits of INAT (or lack thereof) not withstanding, they hold no bearing here as a precedent or otherwise. Considering them may confuse you.

 

Further than that, 4 chimeras, 40 psyckers and an assassin would have many drawbacks.

This is more tactics than rules, and was actually covered in the post I first proposed this unit in; if you follow the link in my OP in this thread, you'll see. It's not automatic-win; it's just broken.