.pdf vs 5th ed codex's

[undeadfilth]

Been a while since I've played and I used to have a lot of success with the old .pdf codex that we used to have. Won many a tourney with it:) I played a few games with the new codex when it came out but took a (much too long) break from 40k. So coming back I was hoping someone could drill into me some of the new key differences from our .pdf heresy to the new 5th ed. I know we have a lot of versatility and fun toys, but what really works now? Anything pretty mandatory to run? Or can you pretty much just spin a roulette wheel to make a list:P Anyways, I love this board, so all of your input would be greatly appreciated and taken to heart.

 

P.S. I just moved like 2.4k miles across the US and there are 2 hobby shops near me. I really wanna wreck some havoc in their stores and blow them away with the whole, "deadly stranger" kind of deal:P

[spjaco]

Still working on my army. Best of luck to you. Let me know how it goes.

[Brother Nathan]

to be honest almost everything in our codex works. you can do what you want near enough. any unit can be made to work. saying that for the points cost the captain isnt worth it over the other options, and if you have the choice between special weapons and their pistol equivilents always take the full sized versions. our dex is fairly well balenced. of courrse we lean more towards cc and i would suggest having something that can wreck face if you arnt planning to have a full combat army. though has to be said dante was better in the pdf...

[undeadfilth]

well, how good are the storm ravens? I bought and built three when they came out and haven't fooled with em too much, though the thought of three of them with full loads(including dreads) would be some serious fun^.^

[Brother Nathan]

not a unit im interested in to be honest. the thought that 3 shots and prettymuch your entire army is crippled puts me off them. saying that others do manage to use them quite well. one day ill get one and try it but itll be getting heavily converted and i need more parts and money for that...

[Enzephalon]

I think the Stormraven was hyped because it is an expensive model (money wise).

I followed endless discussions if other marine chapters should be allowed field it too or not.

 

After all not even the Blood Angels players around my place really use it.

It certainly can be fielded with success, but other builds are more popular for several reasons in my experience.

 

-> It also shares the same slot as the predator. A unit I fell in love with. So no second Stormraven for me neither.

; )

 

Maybe one in the far future.

[undeadfilth]

hmmm, just seems like with turbo boost and the fact that i'm used to 2.5k or 3k pt matches i would think i'd be able to have a little more on the table than just those three:P plus with turbo boosting you get that cozy 3++ don't ya?

[AbusePuppy]

Unit's that are mediocre:

-Captains

-Reclusiarchs

-Techmarines

-Scout Bikers

-Captain Tycho

-Astorath

-The Sanguinor

 

Units which are bad:

-Whirlwind

-Vindicator

-Death Co Tycho

 

Pretty much everything else in the codex is redeemable, and most of them are outright good.

 

Three Stormravens is not really doable below 2500pts, which you won't play very often. Two at 2000 is about right, as it leaves you enough points for fire support; if you go down from there, you will find yourself having to cut virtually everything that isn't in the SRs, leaving you very vulnerable.

 

Stormraven lists can really take advantage of a unit of Death Company, which is nice and fluffy. Assault Terminators are probably your best choice for a unit to put in the second SR- make sure you have a Priest riding with them, and ideally a Libby as well. Always, always, always make use of the ability to carry a Dreadnaught- otherwise you might as well take a Land Raider instead.

 

In more general terms, you have a lot of options for building lists, but you'll want to stick to a general theme. If you're taking tanks, focus on squads in tanks- Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, etc. If you're taking lots of jump infantry, take LOTS of jump infantry. There are lots of good lists floating around out there various places and lots of options for how to build the army depending on what you want from it, but just like any other codex, it's entirely possible to screw up. However, there aren't really any "trap" units that are so terrible you'll cry (except maybe DC Tycho.)

[Brother Nathan]

i actually disagree with your lists.reclusiarch is hardly mediocre, scout bikeres ok they probably are though can be effective if used well, astro and the sanguin, fluff aside are both really good choices in the right situation. sure they need the list to be builtround them to gain their full effect but so does dante etc too... the vindicator is in your bad list? death co tycho i understand as he cant even join a death co, and the whirlwind you pay for the fast and will never use it and we have enouh ways to kill lightinfantry so i can understand, but the vindicator? our vindicators are awsome. being fast means we can move it 12 inches and still fire the demo cannon. essientiallly you have a 36inch range str 10 ap2 pie plate. sure we pay more than other armys for it but it works out right. last time i checked the templars forum they were buyingtheir vindis power of the machine spirit so they could effectively do the same thing... you must never have seen what a pair of vindis and a pair of baals in a list do together... its like the birds and the bees, simiontaniously attacking someone whos scared of flying things...

[Corby]

i actually disagree with your lists.reclusiarch is hardly mediocre, scout bikeres ok they probably are though can be effective if used well, astro and the sanguin, fluff aside are both really good choices in the right situation. sure they need the list to be builtround them to gain their full effect but so does dante etc too... the vindicator is in your bad list? death co tycho i understand as he cant even join a death co, and the whirlwind you pay for the fast and will never use it and we have enouh ways to kill lightinfantry so i can understand, but the vindicator? our vindicators are awsome. being fast means we can move it 12 inches and still fire the demo cannon. essientiallly you have a 36inch range str 10 ap2 pie plate. sure we pay more than other armys for it but it works out right. last time i checked the templars forum they were buyingtheir vindis power of the machine spirit so they could effectively do the same thing... you must never have seen what a pair of vindis and a pair of baals in a list do together... its like the birds and the bees, simiontaniously attacking someone whos scared of flying things...

 

 

You pay 145 points for a gun which fires once every turn. The prevailence of cover in 5th edition means the demolisher cannon isn't a great weapon as your opponent has a 4+ cover save , and with proper spacing by your opponent , you inflict a very low number of casaulties a turn. When you compare that to an Auto/las predator , the Effectiveness of the vindicator pales in comparision. For your 36" demolisher cannon you've to move 12" towards the target anwyays , at the 24" march the vindicator is vunerable to melta units , blasters , Psycannons and many other weapons. Not to mention inflicting an immobilised result or weapon destroyed result effectively takes the vindicator out of the game which make it a sub-par choice in my opinion. When the Codex came out players fell in love with the idea of fast vindicators , but as time wore on and people began to get to grips with the codex , it really showed as being a flashy unit that underperformed.

[JamesI]

I really disagree with labeling Vindicators bad, and Astorath mediocre. My vindicators rarely fail, far less often than my Baals or regular preds failed. Cover is an issue, but one that can be worked around.

[undeadfilth]

okay, so i just pumped this out as an idea going along with the 3 ravens with some support and a unit to take heat off of them for that critical first turn. here goes:P

 

Storm raven: lascannons, typhoon, xarmour

Storm raven: lascannons, typhoon, xarmour

storm raven: assault cannon, multi-melta, hurricanes, xarmour

Astorath

Reclusiarch:

5x DC: JP's, 1 power weapon, 1 power fist

5x dc: Thunder hammer

3x land speeders with typhoons

2x dc dreads with blood talons

assault termies w/ 2 THSS

furioso dread with heavy flamer, magna graple, and frag cannon

5x honour guard: 5x meltas, drop pod.

 

The plan is to have the HG come in first turn and toast a high priority target and then still be in range for a second target, hoping they survive of course. the first turn i use the two ranged SR's to power of the machine spirit one target with it's twin linked lascannons and then to unload it's payload of 6 str 8 shots into a transport or other suitable target. the 3rd SR will turbo boost up, this one will have the jp dc and astorath with a dc dread, the other two will have the other dc and dc dread with reclusiarch and the other will have the assault termies and furioso. this first turn, the speeders will move and put out hurt with their 6 str 8 shots and teach the opponent that speeders arn't just goofy looking>.> second turn the main SR will unload while the other two move up 12 so they can still unload both weapons left and, well, the rest i leave up to your imagination:P seems good on paper and in theory, but hey, how often does that actually transition to the battlefield, eh? A plan is only good till it comes time to implement it lol:P anyways, i'm tired with no sleep in 3 days so i'm probably rambling and really being bad at this so i'm gonna please be quiet and let you guys tell me how craptastic this is.

[Brother Nathan]

i actually disagree with your lists.reclusiarch is hardly mediocre, scout bikeres ok they probably are though can be effective if used well, astro and the sanguin, fluff aside are both really good choices in the right situation. sure they need the list to be builtround them to gain their full effect but so does dante etc too... the vindicator is in your bad list? death co tycho i understand as he cant even join a death co, and the whirlwind you pay for the fast and will never use it and we have enouh ways to kill lightinfantry so i can understand, but the vindicator? our vindicators are awsome. being fast means we can move it 12 inches and still fire the demo cannon. essientiallly you have a 36inch range str 10 ap2 pie plate. sure we pay more than other armys for it but it works out right. last time i checked the templars forum they were buyingtheir vindis power of the machine spirit so they could effectively do the same thing... you must never have seen what a pair of vindis and a pair of baals in a list do together... its like the birds and the bees, simiontaniously attacking someone whos scared of flying things...

 

 

You pay 145 points for a gun which fires once every turn. The prevailence of cover in 5th edition means the demolisher cannon isn't a great weapon as your opponent has a 4+ cover save , and with proper spacing by your opponent , you inflict a very low number of casaulties a turn. When you compare that to an Auto/las predator , the Effectiveness of the vindicator pales in comparision. For your 36" demolisher cannon you've to move 12" towards the target anwyays , at the 24" march the vindicator is vunerable to melta units , blasters , Psycannons and many other weapons. Not to mention inflicting an immobilised result or weapon destroyed result effectively takes the vindicator out of the game which make it a sub-par choice in my opinion. When the Codex came out players fell in love with the idea of fast vindicators , but as time wore on and people began to get to grips with the codex , it really showed as being a flashy unit that underperformed.

 

i still disagree the fear fact of the vindicator is what forces modes to spread out. that means they take up more space and are less likely to be entirely in cover. the effect this has may not mean much for the vindi but it effects greatly how the opponent plays and increases their chances of making mistakes. nevrmind what it can do to things like monoliths and nob bikers. of course i dont think a list should be built soley around them but you can greatly benifit from them in your force. and the amount of fire your opponent will pour at it in ordr to get rid of the threat of that gun can be unreal, iveen peple waste ammounts of fire on them that i wouldnt put in a landraider... you get what you pay for. i wouldnt of course say its cheap, it does weigh in at the same price as a dakka baal pred and i know a single shot pops its but dont overlook it as a choice.

[Mr.darkness]

on the above post. i love fast vindies, and have been playing three in my lists 2k and up. having three means you can get around the cover issue as with the 12 inch move with all of the vindies then you can cover most of the board. the advantage of this is that you can catch the unit that is out of cover on any given turn.

 

if that doesn't make any sense then just ask.

 

on the subject of your list : i have actually played with stormravens to some extent. ill go through it step by step

 

SRs look good. the only thing i would change is the hurricane bolters as i never seem to fire them, and the fact that they barely do any damage (p.s. thats not from math hammer, just experience).

astorath is meh. i ca see the attraction of multiple DC but his shadow rule is pretty useless in a balanced army and his combat potential is also meh. basically i think there are better hqs.

keep him if you leave the DC in your list. chaplais are hard to fit in due to the other stuff in our elites and a rec is much better.

 

ill post more and maybe an example list later on.

[undeadfilth]

thanks dark:) I haven't run astorath yet but I loved chaplains from the .pdf age and they still hold a soft spot with me and a sore spot with my enemies. that and they make dc even more effing deadly:P but yeah, just got the finecast of astorath yesterday and just really wanna try him out:) maybe he'll play good, maybe he won't, either way i'm gonna have a blast painting him^.^

[BA.Rauk]

As far as things that work, I've honestly found the Vindicators in our codex to outperform the Auto/las predators at least in the games I've used both, either or the other. Vindicators draw fire away from the rest of your army in most cases- and if they blow the gun off or shake it you have a fast moving AV 13 ramming tool which can cause just as much disruption as if it had it's gun. Having recently run a rhino rush army, a stormraven army and DoA army - all three work well in their ways. It's all in what you want to play. I've actually found my love in DC to be rekindled as of late and they've been absolutely tearing it up. In a recent 2v2 game (1500 points each) an 8 man DC with 2 fists, 2 PW and a reclusiarch killed a unit of ard boyz, a unit of khorne berserkers on the charge then they took the charge from Ghaz and another unit of khorne berserkers only to wind out on top in the end. (Had to bail them out with a dreadnought to finish off Ghaz, but they pulled their weight for sure.) In a 1v1 game against Chaos Space marines they destroyed a Landraider, rhino, 10 man Chaos marine squad and then took the charge from Abaddon and 4 terminators only to kill the 4 terminators and eventually be ground down by Abaddon.

 

Storm ravens can be frustrating against certain armies who have the kind of firepower to take them out- but when you make all of your cover saves they really do cause some damage.

 

Edit : Also, dunno where all the Astorath understating is coming from but the guys' a machine. STR 6 PW that makes you reroll invuls? Yes please. 1-3 red thirst is just an after the fact.

[JamesI]

Edit : Also, dunno where all the Astorath understating is coming from but the guys' a machine. STR 6 PW that makes you reroll invuls? Yes please. 1-3 red thirst is just an after the fact.

This.

 

The 1-3 red thirst is what got me to use Astorath. But the Artificer Armor, Relic Blade with reroll invuls, higher WS than a reclusairch cover most of the cost difference. Then take a list like mine with 8 units getting an average of 4 to fall to the Red Thrist versus an average of 1.333333 to fall is huge.

 

I figure if I took a Reclusiarch as my main HQ instead of Astorath, I'd lose points since I would need at least 1 more priest.

[Brother Chris]

I presume you mean the real GW pdf rather than the real heretical one which came out before the new one.

 

DC not compulsory, and not controllable, but furious charge on random units. Not sure I like this but it depends on you play style. You can get a DC dread with troops, which sees them played more, especially with the Blood Talons which are super lightning claws.

 

The old pressure is off the Elite slots, as neither Vanguard (formerly Veteran Assault) squads nor scouts are in it. If you use scouts, they are back as a troops choice and vanguard are fast attack. What seems to be a must have are the sanguinary priests, up to three in one elite slot, one of them could be upgraded to corbulo. They give feel no pain and furious charge. Really nice units.

 

All the sergeants have access to the infernus pistol, like Dante's Inferno/Perdition pistol, which I think devalues them, but are quite handy. Hand flamers too.

 

The techmarine takes a whole elite slot so I doubt anyone ever plays them. Pity.

 

I find the hardest presure now is one the Fast Attack slots, as Vanguard and Baals are fast attack, so I find bikes and landspeeders are squeezed.

 

Landraiders are dedicated transport, so you'll see them more often if you are playing enough points.

 

I think the Storm Raven is a bit pointless. I prefer my troops deep striking and my big APCs more armoured, but they do look fun and distinctive.

 

I hate Astorath and Sanguinor, will never use them, but some people like Astorath who makes more furious charge trops and allows more DC. I think we already had quite enough named super characters and we would have been better served with more options for the captain and rules for successor chapter masters, but I guess GW just wanted to shift some more models, and that is their business after all.

 

And Disco Lemartes got retired and an amazing new model brought in to replace him, so I use him quite a lot more. He is a troop upgrade.

 

Don't know if any of this helps, but for me the kind of minor quibbles over points values have had no effect on how I play the army, but the changes to to FOC slots have make quite a lot of difference,mainly for the better, but I don't think techmarines will be featuring in many armies now take up a slot in Elites when you could take Librarian Furiosos, Sanguinary guard and priests, space hulk terminators, Sternguard (those models are brilliant in BA colours),

[AustonT]

Chris: not really willing to dig and find my PDF but I think you are misremembering between the 3ed dex and PDF. In the PDF scouts were troops.

For the OP: I also disagree that vindis are bad. I've had a vindi since forever, no paint, no love, I broke the plates off for objective markers. Now I have three of them and two find a home in my 1500pt list. Sure cover is prevalent now but Vindis scream out to your opponent, "kill me or I will END YOU!" they almost always make thier points back. Your list looks pretty solid, I'm not a huge fan of SRs for a host of reasons but they are formidable fire support platforms. I lean heavily to the mech side now after playing a hybrid gunline/assault army in the PDF. I would suggest trying stuffing CC scouts and a priest in a SR. I've seen it work for a guy at the shop but I don't know iif it's feasible for a competitive list.

 

Just for my personal curiosity where did you relocate to?

[knife&fork]

Units which are bad:

-Whirlwind

 

Agree, at least vs MEQ. Against everything else it's pretty sweet. Take mech guard or orks for example.

 

Pinning tests at -1 ld, hells yes.

Indirect fire, yay.

Flamer big blasts, hello entrenched heavy weapon teams and lootas. KFF, what is that?

Hitting side armor on those pesky chimeras and rolling 2d6 because of ordnance makes the launcher useful even before the transports are blown up.

RAS blew up the transport but unit not quite in assault range to unit? Death from above!

Since it's not that good VS MEQ you can just fire away with impunity all game. Well worth the risk since all your units are inside a FNP bubble.

 

I currently run 2 whirlwinds with HK missiles in my DoA/mech allcomers list. Pleased so far with their performance.

[BigBaals]

Edit : Also, dunno where all the Astorath understating is coming from but the guys' a machine. STR 6 PW that makes you reroll invuls? Yes please. 1-3 red thirst is just an after the fact.

This.

 

The 1-3 red thirst is what got me to use Astorath. But the Artificer Armor, Relic Blade with reroll invuls, higher WS than a reclusairch cover most of the cost difference. Then take a list like mine with 8 units getting an average of 4 to fall to the Red Thrist versus an average of 1.333333 to fall is huge.

 

I figure if I took a Reclusiarch as my main HQ instead of Astorath, I'd lose points since I would need at least 1 more priest.

 

Couldn't agree more. Astorath is a beast.

[Obscura]

If you want to whoop ass, you'll have to go to the game store on 40k/open gaming nights and see what lists they generally play. What we say here means little to nothing as we honestly don't know the gaming demographic of your area. What works in one area of the world doesn't exactly transfer to another.

 

My area is usually filled between people who play campaigns, units building experience and gaining skills ( last edition hard cover ) and "OMG Best Internet List, ever!?". Thankfully with a prevalence of the former over the later.

 

Find out what they play and then we can help you out easier.

[Bradley Powers]

I just made a very similar list at 2000 and 2500, and played the 2000 point version. The 2000 point list has:

 

Astorath

 

Sang. Priest

 

5 DC, JPs, Lemartes

5 DC, JPs, (astorath)

 

RAS (10), 2x Meltagun, IP, PF

RAS (10), 2x Meltagun, IP, PF

 

DC Dread, HF

DC Dread, HF

 

Stormraven, Assault Cannon, MultiMelta

Stormraven, Lascannon, MultiMelta

 

I played this against a Dark Eldar webway portal list, against my "gold standard" player. Basically, every game I play against this guy is really really close, or my list is crap. Anyway, the game was extremely close, and had we played the entire game (he had to "leave early" cough cough) I was in a clear position to win. So, I think it's definitely doable, and quite entertaining...

 

My plan for the 2500 list is similar to yours, with disruption coming from Land Speeders and Vanguard Veterans to blow stuff up and mess with target priorities in turns 1 and 2.

 

 

okay, so i just pumped this out as an idea going along with the 3 ravens with some support and a unit to take heat off of them for that critical first turn. here goes:P

 

Storm raven: lascannons, typhoon, xarmour

Storm raven: lascannons, typhoon, xarmour

storm raven: assault cannon, multi-melta, hurricanes, xarmour

Astorath

Reclusiarch:

5x DC: JP's, 1 power weapon, 1 power fist

5x dc: Thunder hammer

3x land speeders with typhoons

2x dc dreads with blood talons

assault termies w/ 2 THSS

furioso dread with heavy flamer, magna graple, and frag cannon

5x honour guard: 5x meltas, drop pod.

 

The plan is to have the HG come in first turn and toast a high priority target and then still be in range for a second target, hoping they survive of course. the first turn i use the two ranged SR's to power of the machine spirit one target with it's twin linked lascannons and then to unload it's payload of 6 str 8 shots into a transport or other suitable target. the 3rd SR will turbo boost up, this one will have the jp dc and astorath with a dc dread, the other two will have the other dc and dc dread with reclusiarch and the other will have the assault termies and furioso. this first turn, the speeders will move and put out hurt with their 6 str 8 shots and teach the opponent that speeders arn't just goofy looking>.> second turn the main SR will unload while the other two move up 12 so they can still unload both weapons left and, well, the rest i leave up to your imagination:P seems good on paper and in theory, but hey, how often does that actually transition to the battlefield, eh? A plan is only good till it comes time to implement it lol:P anyways, i'm tired with no sleep in 3 days so i'm probably rambling and really being bad at this so i'm gonna please be quiet and let you guys tell me how craptastic this is.

[Taz]

If you're gonna take three fully loaded down SRs I highly recommend a solid DC, despite what some people are saying. A unit of DC, with Lemartes in a SR, wildly expensive jump packs or no, even minus rending, is a force of nature. Keeping them in the transpo mitigates the lack of control over their movement, and a DC dread with Blood Talons has the ability to rip and tear through pretty much any light and medium infantry unit it can get to grips with, and a SR is a very useful delivery vehicle for it. That said, as much as I like the idea of a black painted, DC Storm Raven, I'd avoid painting it such or if you do keep it in reserve or it's target priority is going to go through the roof. Staring down three Storm Ravens is a scary prospect, but mark one out as being full of Death Company you might as well paint a red target on it instead of saltires. Also a furioso libby probably wouldn't go amiss, either since DC dreads are troops you'd still have your elite slots open. Those things are all sorts of fun.

[Bradley Powers]

Even better, TWO black Stormravens with Saltires! **Cackles with joy**