brookzooka Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I'm quite new to gaming and not used scouts before. In a recent match this weekend i used them for the first time and was unimpressed to see a rules clash between LoS and infiltrate. I tried to place a 5-man scout squad in a wood block 12'' away from a unit of guardians only to be told they were in LoS. I know this coincides with RAW but i thought the whole point of inlfiltration is to specialise in getting close to the enemy without being seen hence, they would be hidden in the wood block. Thanx for help in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Get close to the enemy without being hidden - you need to actually have sufficient terrain there to actually hide behind. Otherwise its a short step from ther to having a 10-man terminator squad hiding behind a small shrub. they drew the line quite fiarly at - is there actually enough substance to that terrain that the models could actually hide in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookzooka Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 The wood block was roughly 3''x6'' with about 5 medium sized conifer trees on it so quite dense. my whole understanding in infiltrate it that they would be hiding behind trees or in the under growth, which is realistic otherwise you would have to build terain that dense that you couldn't actually get the models in there, either that or model them on there belt buckles with a bush to hide behind on there base! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The wood block was roughly 3''x6'' with about 5 medium sized conifer trees on it so quite dense.my whole understanding in infiltrate it that they would be hiding behind trees or in the under growth, which is realistic otherwise you would have to build terain that dense that you couldn't actually get the models in there, either that or model them on there belt buckles with a bush to hide behind on there base! :huh: Five conifer trees doesn't sound dense to me; you could still walk through that chunk of forest. ;) Dense is like...massive amounts of undergrowth. Or a solid wall, where their super genetically/surgically/technologically enhanced eyeballs definitely cannot see you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 With true LOS infiltraters can really only hide behind walls, buildings, large hills, etc. Most peoples forest terrain isn't going to cut it, cause we've all made it sparse enough to move models through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 with scouts it doesnt actually matter, becuase they can move up the extra 6" with a scout move anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I'm quite new to gaming and not used scouts before. In a recent match this weekend i used them for the first time and was unimpressed to see a rules clash between LoS and infiltrate. I tried to place a 5-man scout squad in a wood block 12'' away from a unit of guardians only to be told they were in LoS. I know this coincides with RAW but i thought the whole point of inlfiltration is to specialise in getting close to the enemy without being seen hence, they would be hidden in the wood block. Thanx for help in advance they are good enouph to get within 18 inches in broad open site. Thats pretty damn good. 12 inches is a lot harder, and thats why they need full los blockage. I mean its not like they are a lictor, they are just scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'm quite new to gaming and not used scouts before. In a recent match this weekend i used them for the first time and was unimpressed to see a rules clash between LoS and infiltrate. I tried to place a 5-man scout squad in a wood block 12'' away from a unit of guardians only to be told they were in LoS. I know this coincides with RAW but i thought the whole point of inlfiltration is to specialise in getting close to the enemy without being seen hence, they would be hidden in the wood block. Thanx for help in advance they are good enouph to get within 18 inches in broad open site. Thats pretty damn good. 12 inches is a lot harder, and thats why they need full los blockage. I mean its not like they are a lictor, they are just scouts. or the Deathleaper which deep strike 1 inch from an enemy model (has anyone tried and had the deathleaper live to assault the next turn) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 or the Deathleaper which deep strike 1 inch from an enemy model (has anyone tried and had the deathleaper live to assault the next turn) Sounds like the Callidus, minus the shooting. It's the kind of model you want to drop in to support a unit of your own that is already engaged in an assault, to limit (or completely negate) any shooting the leaper might soak pre-charge. Dropping either the Callidus, the Deathleaper, or any other model that deploys in this way off on their own is like saying "Here's your free kill point." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 To fully answer the OP: Infiltrate allows you to be just outside of 12" away if the models cannot be seen at all. If they can be seen- even a little bit- then they must be more than 18" away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 To fully answer the OP: Infiltrate allows you to be just outside of 12" away if the models cannot be seen at all. If they can be seen- even a little bit- then they must be more than 18" away. at which point you would move your 6" scout move and be in the trees anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 To fully answer the OP: Infiltrate allows you to be just outside of 12" away if the models cannot be seen at all. If they can be seen- even a little bit- then they must be more than 18" away. at which point you would move your 6" scout move and be in the trees anyway.. I hate to bring this up again, but I honestly cannot remember the conclusion we came to...it's actually "just over 12/18", right? That is, it's impossible for Scouts to use Infiltrate to get a first turn assault, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I hate to bring this up again, but I honestly cannot remember the conclusion we came to...it's actually "just over 12/18", right? That is, it's impossible for Scouts to use Infiltrate to get a first turn assault, yes? scouts have to deploy at least 12/18" depending on LOS, so they cannot start exactly 12" away and get a first turn charge.. Unless you take Shrike and fleet them in.. like i do :P scout bikes and land speeder storms dont have these issues though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookzooka Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thanks to everyone for the comments.... possibly gonna try the scout bikers to get that 1st turn assault 3X S6 AP4 rapid fire plus a TL bolter then smash! and mop up whats left :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Thanks to everyone for the comments.... possibly gonna try the scout bikers to get that 1st turn assault 3X S6 AP4 rapid fire plus a TL bolter then smash! and mop up whats left :lol: the S3 templates work better against troops, you get 6 at rapid fire and templates dont 'miss' as such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Valerius Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I hate to bring this up again, but I honestly cannot remember the conclusion we came to...it's actually "just over 12/18", right? That is, it's impossible for Scouts to use Infiltrate to get a first turn assault, yes? scouts have to deploy at least 12/18" depending on LOS, so they cannot start exactly 12" away and get a first turn charge.. Unless you take Shrike and fleet them in.. like i do :lol: scout bikes and land speeder storms dont have these issues though Scout moves have to stay a certain distance away, right? Just wondering because what you said isn't correct in the way you said it... "at least 12 inches away" includes deploying exactly 12 inches away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogstaff Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 The exact wording is "more than 12"/18" " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Yeah apologies on the poor wording, i think i got the point across though... more or less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 In summary: Infiltrate into LoS >18" away Infiltrate out of LoS >12" away Scout movement >12" away Which means that unless Scouts can get up close by staying out of LoS they won't be able to pull off first turn charges unless Shrike is being used or they are in a LSS. Do keep that in mind, normal infantry on foot with only infiltrate, no Scouts or anything won't be able to get first turn charges, but if they have Scouts, Fleet, or in a fast transport that turbo-boosts (no infiltrate though) then a first turn charge is very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 In summary:Infiltrate into LoS >18" away Infiltrate out of LoS >12" away Scout movement >12" away Which means that unless Scouts can get up close by staying out of LoS they won't be able to pull off first turn charges unless Shrike is being used or they are in a LSS. Do keep that in mind, normal infantry on foot with only infiltrate, no Scouts or anything won't be able to get first turn charges, but if they have Scouts, Fleet, or in a fast transport that turbo-boosts (no infiltrate though) then a first turn charge is very possible. the scouts special rule does not allow a first turn charge, they still must end the scout move more than twelve inches away. unless they can move more than twelve inches in their move+shooting+assault phases in a turn (fleet, bikes, calvery, beasts, jump infantry) they will still be just a hair out of charge range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 You can move 6" in the movement phase and 6" on the charge if you end the scout movement right at the 12" from someone (still being mover that 12" because the model is outside of the 12") you can get a first turn charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Right you are Frosty, the embarrassing thing is I pointed that out in the summary of my post. Elric the Silvercoat, I'm afraid that doesn't work as you have to deploy more than 12" away, or stay more than 12" away with movement. This means that the nearest you can deploy or move to is 12.1", which isn't enough for a first turn charge unless you're a bike, jump infantry, in an open topped/assault vehicle, beast or have fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yea, Elric, this has come up a few times on this board. ;) The writing of the Scout/Infiltrate USRs state your models must be "more than 12 away". If they're at exactly 12" or less (which they'd need to be to make an assault) they they have infiltrated illegally. This is neither an accident nor an oversight; GW very much seems to want to make first-turn assaults very difficult, even impossible for most armies. Under standard deployment options, it takes Shrike and scouts to do it in the vanilla Dex, and I think Dark Eldar can do it. Anybody else? Nothing comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yea, Elric, this has come up a few times on this board. ;) The writing of the Scout/Infiltrate USRs state your models must be "more than 12 away". If they're at exactly 12" or less (which they'd need to be to make an assault) they they have infiltrated illegally. This is neither an accident nor an oversight; GW very much seems to want to make first-turn assaults very difficult, even impossible for most armies. Under standard deployment options, it takes Shrike and scouts to do it in the vanilla Dex, and I think Dark Eldar can do it. Anybody else? Nothing comes to mind. GKs with Intercepts and Dreadknights with PT can do it first turn if you give them scouts with a GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 ork dethkoptors can too :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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