Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I was wondering why Grey Knights can't use Storm Shields. They are said to have the best wargear if any chapter but only the Supreme Grand Master gets a Storm Shield. What are your thoughts about this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 They are so good they don't need 'em.. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 They are so good they don't need 'em.. :lol: If they are so good why does Diago have one then :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Nemisis Force swords... Unless they were going to replace their Nemisis Weapons with the Storm Shields, Storm Shields on GK models would be broken (hence why Draigo does not come with a force sword). On top of which this would make the Warding Staff irrelevant. IF GK termies for Paladins could take Storm shileds (unless they were prohibitively expenesive like 25+ points per model) and Nemisis weapons, they would be too good. Oh my termies go at I6 and have a 3++, or strike at I 4 but have a 2++ in close combat, and can be S5, and these guys have 2 wounds, and feel no pain. 10 Paladins with Apothecary, Storm Shields, and Wound allocation tricks would be damn near unkillable. Oh and for good measure well throw in Drago, and an Inquisitor with grenades to make them rediculous and Stubborn.... Fluff makign sense of not it is a game balace issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 it is dihonourable to cower before the enemy behind a shield. A noble warrior should stand and face them (whilst discretely wetting himself) i dunno, no good fluff reason, they just would be broken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Its a easy fix to give them Storm Shields just make NFS the same but without the incease to Inv Save and you don't have to change the Stave because them it will be better than the Storm Shield in combat but make them the same point cost 25 points for a Storm Shield is about Average for all Space Marine Chapters and they do have at least one Storm Shield Diago has it so why don't they get more. And if you think Storm Shields on Pallies are horrible just make them 30 points for the Pallies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Its a easy fix to give them Storm Shields just make NFS the same but without the incease to Inv Save and you don't have to change the Stave because them it will be better than the Storm Shield in combat but make them the same point cost 25 points for a Storm Shield is about Average for all Space Marine Chapters and they do have at least one Storm Shield Diago has it so why don't they get more. And if you think Storm Shields on Pallies are horrible just make them 30 points for the Pallies. Even GW is not insane enough to have a unit with 2 wounds, 2+/3++ save, I6 force weapons at S5 or 6 with possible 2d6 armour pen (or more with the new stacking psychic powers rules), regardless of the points cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 They are so good they don't need 'em.. :lol: If they are so good why does Diago have one then :lol: Because he sucks, obviously! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 A paladin with a 30 point SS and a Halberd would be better than Many HQ choices in other books 85 Points for an WS 5 I6 model with a 2+/3++, with 2 Psychic powers. Sorry it is just too good balance wise, and sorry but I'll take a 3++ all the time over a 2+ in CC all the time. TH/SS termies are hard to kill already, now imagine if they hit you first had frag grenades, hit you on 3s, with force weapons. Stick rad grenades on a character and give them an Apothecary, and sorry they are way too strong, they will wipe the floor with any unit in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hfran Morkai Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 They use them as lava proof surfboards on their downtime. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 A paladin with a 30 point SS and a Halberd would be better than Many HQ choices in other books 85 Points for an WS 5 I6 model with a 2+/3++, with 2 Psychic powers. Sorry it is just too good balance wise, and sorry but I'll take a 3++ all the time over a 2+ in CC all the time. TH/SS termies are hard to kill already, now imagine if they hit you first had frag grenades, hit you on 3s, with force weapons. Stick rad grenades on a character and give them an Apothecary, and sorry they are way too strong, they will wipe the floor with any unit in the game. Well in fluff Paladins needed to have banished some of the most powerful daemons every to step into realspace by themselves........ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 A paladin with a 30 point SS and a Halberd would be better than Many HQ choices in other books 85 Points for an WS 5 I6 model with a 2+/3++, with 2 Psychic powers. Sorry it is just too good balance wise, and sorry but I'll take a 3++ all the time over a 2+ in CC all the time. TH/SS termies are hard to kill already, now imagine if they hit you first had frag grenades, hit you on 3s, with force weapons. Stick rad grenades on a character and give them an Apothecary, and sorry they are way too strong, they will wipe the floor with any unit in the game. Well in fluff Paladins needed to have banished some of the most powerful daemons every to step into realspace by themselves........ Yes, but in that smae fluff Draigo carved his initials into Mortarions heart. Let's not get carried away with fluff otherwise you'd only ever need 10 vanilla marines to deal with almost any threat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Yes, but in that smae fluff Draigo carved his initials into Mortarions heart. Let's not get carried away with fluff otherwise you'd only ever need 10 vanilla marines to deal with almost any threat. Well I know Daigo's fluff seems extreme (its like he is the Emperar's real son not a generic experiment) yea I do understand that Storm Shields would make Paladins the most unbeatable unit in the game. But do the math alittle. a Paladin with a 30 point Stormshield and a Daemon Hammer is 85 points where a Space Marine Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is 40 points. That is all I am going to say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Yes, but in that smae fluff Draigo carved his initials into Mortarions heart. Let's not get carried away with fluff otherwise you'd only ever need 10 vanilla marines to deal with almost any threat. Well I know Daigo's fluff seems extreme (its like he is the Emperar's real son not a generic experiment) yea I do understand that Storm Shields would make Paladins the most unbeatable unit in the game. But do the math alittle. a Paladin with a 30 point Stormshield and a Daemon Hammer is 85 points where a Space Marine Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is 40 points. That is all I am going to say. He's also higher WS, S, I and armed with a force weapon plus he has 2 wounds and can be in a unit with unique models for extra wound allocation shenaigans. It's just too much, regardless of points cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 He's also higher WS, S, I and armed with a force weapon plus he has 2 wounds and can be in a unit with unique models for extra wound allocation shenaigans. It's just too much, regardless of points cost. Its only 1 more WS and one more wound has to pass a psyhic test for +1 S and another psyhic test to activite the force weapon and the incease I is only if you take a Halbred and I am not comparing them I am comparing a Daemon Hammer to a Thunder Hammer in my example. And Wolf Guard Terminators can all be unquire models too and they are about 23 points Average so that isn't anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816610 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 and that paladin is effectivly 2 TH/SS termies as far as durablility agaisnt non-S8 attacks, and that same Paladin for the same points can go at I 6, and has hammer hand, and a force weapon, and has WS 5, and has holocaust. Yes it would be an expensive unit, but it is acutally undercosted for what you are getting. Consider this the apothecary is right now a debatable upgrade for a squad because AP1 and 2 will Wreck them, if you give them a 3++, now I am definitely taking an Apoth, and banner and 10 Paladins with storm shields, and wound allocating them out, they are just not going to die before they hit the enemy lines and when they do they will rip through just about anything. Expensive sure, not particularly fast, but way to strong, it is effectively the equivalent of killing 20 TH/SS termies, but unlike the TH/SS termies they go first, often at S 5 (S 6 with a character, and if that character has Rad grenades then you get instant deathed). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Its only 1 more WS and one more wound has to pass a psyhic test for +1 S and another psyhic test to activite the force weapon and the incease I is only if you take a Halbred and I am not comparing them I am comparing a Daemon Hammer to a Thunder Hammer in my example. And Wolf Guard Terminators can all be unquire models too and they are about 23 points Average so that isn't anything. But wolf guard don't get 2 wounds (and they are 33 points, more with a storm shield 48 I think) and you cannot just choose to compare the Daemon Hammer one to the TH/SS because the Halberd costs the same as the hammer, and everyone will take it (with maybe 1 or 2 hammers, in case of walkers) +1 WS is a big deal(the difference between WS4 and WS 5 is huge, as most units are WS 3 or 4, only characters for the most part are 5+), as is Hammer hand (which unless there is psychic defense goes off like 90% of the time) So, when you have I6 terminators hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s against marines, and you really cannot take them down in shooting, because of wound allocation, 2+/3++ and possibly FNP, it is a bit much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 But wolf guard don't get 2 wounds (and they are 33 points, more with a storm shield 48 I think) and you cannot just choose to compare the Daemon Hammer one to the TH/SS because the Halberd costs the same as the hammer, and everyone will take it (with maybe 1 or 2 hammers, in case of walkers) +1 WS is a big deal(the difference between WS4 and WS 5 is huge, as most units are WS 3 or 4, only characters for the most part are 5+), as is Hammer hand (which unless there is psychic defense goes off like 90% of the time) So, when you have I6 terminators hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s against marines, and you really cannot take them down in shooting, because of wound allocation, 2+/3++ and possibly FNP, it is a bit much. There is a way to make this where it isn't broke just make it where they can only get 2 storm shield per 5 Paladins. This will max you out with 4 shields per 10 man squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 If TWC can take shields, it's not too much of a streach to let the Pallies have them. As above, they wouldn't be undercosted, you get the equivalent of two 'nilla TH/SS termies for the price of 1 Pally (with SS/NDH). But you lose 1/2 the attacks. The only reason (apart form Matt Ward fiat) is due to Nemesis Force Swords +1I save in CC. But then I think that was a last minute add to cover the lack of SS somewhat. SS would also help with our vulnerability to Perils, and not require hashing a FAQ ruling to somewhat alliviate the problem. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 and then remove Combat Squads?, otherwise I'm taking 10 4 with Shields 4 with Psycannons, and combat squading into two 5man squads an assault unit and a shooty unit. Then I'll put the assault unit in a transport, and let them go to town. Or even having two 3++ saves is plenty, as most times you don't take more than 2 AP 1 or 2 Wounds from most shooting, and with wound allocation I can stack them on one model and let that model take 3++ saves. Sorry on 2 wounded terminators, that can be allocated out there is no way storm shields are not broken, unless it is like 70 points or so for each shield. In addition the amount of stuff that you have changed just to get storm shields is getting long. If you change the force sword then all other NFW option really would need to be recosted on all the terminators, then you have to appropriately cost SSs, then you need to limit how many you can take, then elimitate combat squads from the Paladins. Also if this is all based off fluff, then limiting Storm shields makes no sense as no other Marine codex does this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Its actually because they only have left arm storm shields which is where the storm bolter is already attached. Draigo and some other special character have their on the wrong side :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Even GW is not insane enough to have a unit with 2 wounds, 2+/3++ save, I6 force weapons at S5 or 6 with possible 2d6 armour pen (or more with the new stacking psychic powers rules), regardless of the points cost. I really think they tried it though. :lol: and were like "wow. that's...kind of broken. even for us." Yes, but in that smae fluff Draigo carved his initials into Mortarions heart. Let's not get carried away with fluff otherwise you'd only ever need 10 vanilla marines to deal with almost any threat. Draigo is impossibly awesome in the GK codex. When I field Draigo, he will not be Draigo. He will be a counts-as-Draigo bamf of a Brother Captain. Actual, real Draigo could be fielded by himself and would decimate and rout an opposing 3000 point army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 The reason most Grey Knights don't use stormshields is due to the Tech Priests of Mars deeming the stormbolter be mounted on the left wrist. Ergo if they held a stormshield, they would have no weapon with which to shoot the daemon that had a 2++ versus their Nemesis Force Weapon. Therefore they deemed it better to maintain a ranged weapon presence on the battlefield instead. The concept of swapping the stormbolter to the dominant hand would involve altering the blessed schematics of the Tactical Dreadnought Armor, which is unthinkable. That and it would be a little more weight awkward. Draigo is obviously just a freak of nature, but we're used to that :lol: Honestly... I suspect it's mostly a balance issue. Our terminators are more of a cross between standard Astartes brand and Assault Astartes brand, and perform all around well. Stormshields is more of a pure assault role, and our Codex by design doesn't have pure anything roles, that's part of it's strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Didn't the Crusaders steal them all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Didn't the Crusaders steal them all? See they could just go and take them back from the Crusaders. ;) I do understand they don't want to change the plans for the armour and I understand that the Grey Knights need to be more flexible to fight daemans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233947-why-no-shields/#findComment-2816723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.