Akylas Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hello, I'm starting an Alpha Legion warband/cell. I've been thinking a lot about theme and how I want to build my army. In ADBs Night Lord novels I really liked the character of the Exalted and the idea of there being tension within the more independently minded legions over stay pure versus succumbing to the slow fall to chaos. I was thinking of modeling my warband as being similarly on the edge, with a Tzeentch theme (he seems to best fit their modus operandi of misdirection and arguably overcomplicated schemes). Specifically I was planning to give the Lord a daemon weapon that is slowly coming to influence him, and possibly running a MoT on some units if it seems practical under the current codex, or having some Thousand Sons "allies" as a single squad in the army. Is giving my warband a more chaosy theme than the Alpha Legion seems to normally have out of bounds fluffwise? I know it's my army and I can run anything I want (up to an including Noise Marines having a bbq with their Plague Marine mates while the Beserkers play volleyball nearby with the Thousands Sons :P ) but I'd like to stay reasonably close to the background if I can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Regardless of new fluff as to why the Alphas turned or whether they were loyal or not, they are Chaosy now. The novel The Hunt for Voldorius is a case in point -- Chaos-marked Marines led by a Daemon Prince. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2817062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 After the failure of the Heresy, the Legions ceased to exist for all intents and purposes. Some stayed true to their roots, some went off to find religion, some just decided to be space pirates. By "independently minded", do you mean "not completely vested in the cause?" They all want to see the Imperium burn, but none of them trust the other and never really did. Without the charisma of Horus to keep them all on the same page of the playbook, they regard one another on a scale ranging from 'distrust' to 'kill on sight' even now within the same Legion. The Alphas, being the de-centralized Legion, probably suffered more from this than most Legions. A warband of Alpha Legionnaires that have fallen into the thrall (I mean, worship) of Tzeentch does not go against fluff in the slightest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2817076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 Regardless of new fluff as to why the Alphas turned or whether they were loyal or not, they are Chaosy now. The novel The Hunt for Voldorius is a case in point -- Chaos-marked Marines led by a Daemon Prince. I haven't read that one. How is it? After the failure of the Heresy, the Legions ceased to exist for all intents and purposes. Some stayed true to their roots, some went off to find religion, some just decided to be space pirates. By "independently minded", do you mean "not completely vested in the cause?" They all want to see the Imperium burn, but none of them trust the other and never really did. Without the charisma of Horus to keep them all on the same page of the playbook, they regard one another on a scale ranging from 'distrust' to 'kill on sight' even now within the same Legion. The Alphas, being the de-centralized Legion, probably suffered more from this than most Legions. A warband of Alpha Legionnaires that have fallen into the thrall (I mean, worship) of Tzeentch does not go against fluff in the slightest. By independtly minded I was thinking of the legions that don't seem to be dedicated to Chaos a such. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion (although you can never be quite sure with that last one...). Thanks for the replies. It sounds like I have some ground to stand on fluffwise. I guess the big question now is, how far would my Alphas have to fall before I'm no longer allowed to post in the Undivided section. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2817116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Regardless of new fluff as to why the Alphas turned or whether they were loyal or not, they are Chaosy now. The novel The Hunt for Voldorius is a case in point -- Chaos-marked Marines led by a Daemon Prince. I haven't read that one. How is it? Probably the single worst BL book that I have ever read, unfortunately, right after Sons of Dorn.I had to restart Hunt 5 times (with nothing else to read besides) and I only managed to finish it because 1. I was on vacation and didn't bring any other books. 2. I wanted to write a review of it that would hopefully save other fans of the Alpha Legion from experiencing that abomination. The scope of the story is nice and there is an interesting plot-twist towards the end, pertaining to White Scars lore - and that's it. The rest of the book is more or less stereotypical bolter porn with zero character, clichés, immature writing (as in he has yet to find his style) and the entire setup is dragged down by completely unrealistic things like Space Marines mistaking a mutant for a Daemon Prince, talking in garbage 'battle cant', and the author's overuse of the word cacophonous. I never got around to writing that full review (I cannot bring myself to open that book again), so I will point you to these instead (which I pretty much agree with): link & link Read it at your own peril. My 2 Kraks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2817231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 By independtly minded I was thinking of the legions that don't seem to be dedicated to Chaos a such. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion (although you can never be quite sure with that last one...). Thanks for the replies. It sounds like I have some ground to stand on fluffwise. I guess the big question now is, how far would my Alphas have to fall before I'm no longer allowed to post in the Undivided section. :rolleyes: The Chaos Legions are pretty much all dedicated to Chaos. Sure, they're not as overtly religious as the Word Bearers or any of the mono-god legions, but they all paint the eight-pointed star on their shoulderpads. The three Legions you listed may not worship, grovel and scrape, but they still make fell bargains with the powers of Chaos. To the Ruinous Powers, there's no difference: corruption is corruption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2817417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Read it at your own peril. My 2 Kraks Good to know. I'll be staying away from that one. It's too bad, with so few stories with the Alpha Legion. The Chaos Legions are pretty much all dedicated to Chaos. Sure, they're not as overtly religious as the Word Bearers or any of the mono-god legions, but they all paint the eight-pointed star on their shoulderpads. The three Legions you listed may not worship, grovel and scrape, but they still make fell bargains with the powers of Chaos. To the Ruinous Powers, there's no difference: corruption is corruption. True. While I was under the impression some of the less Chaos worshipping legions think they're using Chaos, the reality is almost certainly the other way around. Makes me kind of wonder if maybe the Word Bearers are getting the most out of it, since they don't lie to themselves. In the case of the warband I'm working on they'll think they're getting the better end of the bargain. All the more unfortunate for them... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2818324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Read it at your own peril. My 2 Kraks Good to know. I'll be staying away from that one. It's too bad, with so few stories with the Alpha Legion. If you are not familiar with it, take a look : here as it gives a nice overview. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2818334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akylas Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Thanks. That's very informative. Funny, so far I've found at least two references there to them fighting under the aegis of Khorne. Somehow of the Chaos gods he doesn't seemt to be the one that makes me think "Alpha Legion"... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2818345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Thanks. That's very informative. Funny, so far I've found at least two references there to them fighting under the aegis of Khorne. Somehow of the Chaos gods he doesn't seemt to be the one that makes me think "Alpha Legion"... I can see more of a use of Khornate Alphas than I can Nurgle Alphas; even with all their scheming, there will always be a need for brute force, and not all Khorne worshippers are ravening, spastic maniacs like Khârn. The Blood Pact, for instance, are devotees of Khorne but are well disciplined, well trained, and utilize stealth when necessary. That being said, I agree with you that Tzeentch is the most likely primary patron for the Alphas simply due to the plotting and scheming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2819879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 The way I see it is that cult troops could be recruited from the other legions or they've made a pact with that particular god just for the boons it grants the warband. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2819896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 True. Alpha Legion is known for their methods - they can use anything they want in order to win. But i don't think they can bear marks of the Dark Gods, only that one of Chaos Undivided as it was in the previous codex. But icons, perhaps. Different icons of the Gods, not only the Chaos Glory, may be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2819905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 But i don't think they can bear marks of the Dark Gods, only that one of Chaos Undivided as it was in the previous codex. But icons, perhaps. Different icons of the Gods, not only the Chaos Glory, may be. The previous codex is null and void for the most part, that's the whole "big thing" with the current dex, it gives you freedom to do whatever you want. So if anything don't restrict yourself fluff-wise and gameplay by not using certain things. If anything, just go with they worship Tzeentch to gain an advantage over their enemies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2819964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Perhaps, you're right. But i always thought Undivided Legions always didn't want to worship Chaos, only to use it. That's why they don't follow any God as it means not only to use the power of Chaos but to please the God. Of course, we can't use Chaos and be not used by it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2819997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I guess it really just depends on the player. Some people might not care about pleasing a god just that they get what they want out of the relationship (aka power etc.). I have a NL army and the Lord bears the mark of khorne in my fluff. He just doesn't care what the others think and his warband is the same way. They use the powers of the chaos gods to their benefit not caring if they're pawns only that they recieve the power from them. This fluff will probably change slightly if/when we get a new codex with legion specific rules, but until then gotta make due with what we have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2820010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Perhaps, you're right. But i always thought Undivided Legions always didn't want to worship Chaos, only to use it. That's why they don't follow any God as it means not only to use the power of Chaos but to please the God... That's a popular opinion (and in the current "Do what thou wilt..." Codex-fluff is certainly valid.) A lot of that comes from the players themselves not wanting to play a Legion that prostrates itself before gods that the player knows doesn't care for any kind of worship. It makes the Legion seem like a bunch of tools. Additionally, a lot of the current BL authors seem uncomfortable with the idea of writing characters with truly devout faith. (Indeed, describing a character's faith without verging into the realm of caricature is incredibly difficult.) Ergo, you have the Night Lords, who now refuse to bow before anything; and the Iron Warriors, who use Chaos like they would use a screwdriver or a spanner; and the Alpha Legion, who only use Chaos to spread chaos. In my opinion, however, if you put the eight-pointed star on your uniform, you are a Chaos Legion. You may not worship like other Legions, but the existence of that star sigil means that you have dedicated your Legion not only to the overthrow of the Imperium, but also the promotion of Chaos in its place. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2820138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Even back in their IA the Night Lords had "nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms", or words to that effect. It isn't a new development at all. However, the Iron Warriors certainly worship Chaos, they just aren't screaming fanatics. The worship is definitely there though, same as with the Alpha Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2820436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I guess it really just depends on the player. Some people might not care about pleasing a god just that they get what they want out of the relationship (aka power etc.). I have a NL army and the Lord bears the mark of khorne in my fluff. He just doesn't care what the others think and his warband is the same way. They use the powers of the chaos gods to their benefit not caring if they're pawns only that they recieve the power from them. This fluff will probably change slightly if/when we get a new codex with legion specific rules, but until then gotta make due with what we have. Agreed. ADB also writes about it - the Exalted is possessed by the daemon of the Architect of Fates, Uzas is falling to the Blood God... I also think old times're gone and Chaos is changing - our codex shows it. So i agree, we can only wait for a new codex. For now we have freedom in our choice. That's a popular opinion... Good words. Nothing to add. :) and i also think if we have a Star of Chaos it means not only power but also to spread Chaos. It's logical :P Lord_Caerolion Yes. Not all understand what to worship Chaos means. Chaos Gods require worship as they're alive. But Chaos Undivided doesn't require it. It's just endless and inconceivable thing :D it requires only more Chaos! So Undivided Legions only fight and spread Chaos and use it and Cult Legions beside it worship their God as their actions strenghten them. So, if our aim requires, we can use anything to achieve it. So Death to the False Emperor! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2820515 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trel Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Even back in their IA the Night Lords had "nothing but scorn for faith in all its forms", or words to that effect. It isn't a new development at all. However, the Iron Warriors certainly worship Chaos, they just aren't screaming fanatics. The worship is definitely there though, same as with the Alpha Legion. Scorn, sure, but that doesn't make them Space Atheists either. Faith is different when you can know definitively that your gods exist. The Space Marines' faith in the Emperor is oriented around the belief that the Emperor's massive psychic ability watches over them, empowers them, and that the Emperor will eventually do whatever needs to be done to win the Long War once and for all. None of that is provable. The Word Bearers' faith in Chaos is centered around the notion that eventually Chaos and humanity will become one and usher in a new age and a new state of existence for Mankind. While they are acutely aware of the effects their worship has, they can't prove that their ideals for Mankind and Chaos are anything close to accurate. The Night Lords know that daemons and gods exist. They've seen them. They've probably even interacted with them in the form of bargains that allow them to freely exist in the Eye of Terror. They may not bow and scape and worship, but all the gods and daemons need is mortals to accept their existence as a real thing, which the Night Lords do. In bargaining with Chaos, in working to further the "brand awareness" of Chaos in the galaxy, the Night Lords are a Chaos Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2820691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Well, many Night Lords hate the Chaos Gods, and don't accept their powers, and certainly don't fight to further their goals. They have similar goals, but your average Night Lord doesn't go into battle muttering a prayer to the Gods, or dedicate their kills, or anything like that. By your exact same logic, the Ordo Malleus/Grey Knights are a Chaos faction, as they know the Chaos Gods exist, use their powers (daemon-weapons/hosts and sorcery, anyone?), and further awareness of the Gods by inducting more acolytes, initiates and followers into the truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Well, many Night Lords hate the Chaos Gods Does hating faith really mean that they hate the Chaos gods as a consequence? I never saw it that way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821111 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Well, many Night Lords hate the Chaos Gods, and don't accept their powers, and certainly don't fight to further their goals. They have similar goals, but your average Night Lord doesn't go into battle muttering a prayer to the Gods, or dedicate their kills, or anything like that. By your exact same logic, the Ordo Malleus/Grey Knights are a Chaos faction, as they know the Chaos Gods exist, use their powers (daemon-weapons/hosts and sorcery, anyone?), and further awareness of the Gods by inducting more acolytes, initiates and followers into the truth. The Big 4, while being the BIG 4, are by no means representative in the entire spectrum that is the Empyrean. There are thousands of powers and deities therein who by no means answer or even are part of Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle or Tzeentch. There are even places within the Empyrean with no direct touch of the deities associated with "Chaos". Khaine and the rest of the Eldar Gods for example. Gork and Mork. The Imperial Faith which powers the Adepta Sororitas. All have a place within the Empyrean and none of them are part of Chaos. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 All have a place within the Empyrean and none of them are part of Chaos. TDA That's just what Tzeentch wants you to think... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Now that's just poor editing ;) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I've been thinking about this, and I feel that perhaps the mini-lists in the 3.5 codex are perhaps to blame for a lot of the thinking towards using cult troops, marks and icons within the "undivided" legions. because of the restrictions given in these lists on using cult troops and marks in order to recieve a legion specific benefit, eg, Iron Warriors HS options, it has led modern players to the thinking that this is now the only way to field one of these legion's armies. It is perfectly justifiable for any chaos marine to strike a pact with whichever chaotic patron he fancies, for whatever benefit, in exchange for whatever sacrifice deemed nessecary. This need not be any act of faith or worship, but simply a mutual benefit from the bargain, or even for a single sided benefit as ultimately the gods of the empyrean are fickle and tricksy. That a Legion as a whole doesn't devote itself to one aspect of the pantheon over any other doesn't mean that any individual or group of individuals within said Legion might not devote themselves to one more than another or even completely. It is simply more the case that they don't give themselves over as a legion in the manner of the death guard or world eaters. Even then there is no guarantee that the predelictions of the God would override tactical thinking, overall. i.e World Eater Havocs, they might well be as lobotomised as any typical khornate bezerker, but they still have Ld 10 and even if they did still suffer from frenzy (not that they do any more) would be able to overcome their lobotomised instinct to charge rabidly. So yeah, I'd say that if you decide you want to play a slightly khornate or tzeentchian or whatever other manner of Alpha Legion force you choose then there should be no reason why not, devise an interesting piece of background for why your force is composed in that particular way and you're set. if you're going khorne use non-bunny ear heads and a mixture of bezerker and normal CSM, painted a nice dark blue etc and you've got some nice models, I'd say probably field a max of one fully fledged bezerker unit and a few icon-bearing squads, of whatever nature (havocs, raptors etc). Rubrics are a bit harder to explain but a few Tzeentchian icons here and there mixed in with chaos glory should be ok, if the Tzeentchian figures were as flexible as the bezerkers then you'd have a lot easier job. We really could do with some plastic cult troops for Slaanesh and Tzeentch next model release time, after all we don't have any need for another recut of the CSM sprue with the same parts rearranged on the sprue. There's some really nice parts in the bezerker kit, although it is a little dated, but we could really do with generally compatible plastic parts for the other major gods, anyway that's an aisde. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/233990-before-i-get-paintingfluff-question/#findComment-2821502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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