Scumgrief Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Today I have put together the Captain what you you guys think of these rules and do you think the points cost is right. Captain Machiavi 180pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv 6 5 4(5) 4 3 5 3 10 2(4) And They Shall Know No Fear Independent Character Rites of Battle Wraith of Tycho: Comissioned to Machiavi after his promotion to the master of sacrifice, these matching pistols have enough punch to turn even the biggest of tanks to molten slag. (A pair of Infernus Pistols that count as a Twin Linked Meltagun) Sword of Sacrifice: The Sword the was given to the orginal captain of the 3rd Company, this sword is so sharp that even the toughest of creatures are no match for it's keen edge. (A two handed power sword that adds 1 Strength) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
by_any_other_names Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Machiavi sounds like machiavilli? Wasn't he the ruler of Italy with Hitler? Your custom is fine but change the name a little? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebG Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 @ B.A.O.N - do you mean Mussolini? It's pretty different, I doubt that's what he was going for. *Edit* Just googled Machiavilli, he was a Renaissance painter and other things who died in 1527. Actually a pretty good name for a BA. Plus he died in 1527 so definitely not a friend of Hitler :D @Scumgrief - He sounds pretty cool. I don't have my codex about to compare stats/points etc so can't comment much there. Equipment and model wise two pistols and a two handed sword would be a pain to model. Why not make it a mastercrafted melta gun and a fancy powersword that adds +1 strength. You could still have the fluff/model of the gun as a posh pistol. That way you'll also get the +1 attack. Worth a thought but otherwise I like the idea of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Machiavi sounds like machiavilli?Wasn't he the ruler of Italy with Hitler? Your custom is fine but change the name a little? Seriously? -.- Is that what you think? The guy you are talking about is Mussolini. Machiavelli was a famous politician, philosopher, writer and what not and fits perfectly for the Renaissance Fluff of the BA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scumgrief Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 He is meant to be the 3rd company commander in the codex so I didn't get a choice with the name, I have modeled him with the pistols out of the holsters with the sword on the ground like he had quickly dropped it to draw his pistols. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I would maybe drop the twinlinked thing but that is purely my own silly little feelings. I would not use the term commissioned either. It makes it sound as though he had them made specifically for himself. Which is not so doable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't have a comment on the Captain, I'm afraid, as I literally haven't slept for so long I can't remember when the last time was. I was just thinking it'd be interesting if Games Workshop would release the information they use to calculate points values. I believe - though I could be wrong - that they have a points value for each and every ability, power or statistic and that when they create a character or unit they calculate the points by adding up whatever they've given them. Actually, strike that. Although that would be a sensible way of doing things, it's plainly not the case. I'm just thinking of Space Wolves Grey Hunters who... well, looking at it, suddenly I'm not so sure any more. I had thought that Grey Hunters were a better version of Tactical Squads but for fewer points. Turns out that, while they are cheaper, they may not actually be better: Pros Counter-attack instead of The Red Thirst* Free second special weapon Flexibility in kit loadout Bolter and bolt pistol as standard Cons No heavy weapons Limited access to dedicated transports Lack of combat squads No sergeant stat-line Lack of sergeant weapon options Blood Angels have the option of a free special weapon and and free heavy weapon *I mention this as a pro for the Grey Hunters, but it's a matter of preference. I've never had The Red Thirst actually come off on any of my units, so I wouldn't miss not having it. But having bolters plus Counter-attack seems to me like a winning combination. So, yeah, the Grey Hunters are cheaper than our Tactical Squads, but I rather feel they pay for it in other ways. Which gets me back to wondering: do Games Workshop just have a points value for each individual statistic? I'd be interested to find out. Nb: sorry for rambling. As I said, my head's not properly attached. I hadn't meant this to go on so long, but anyone who's ever read one of my posts will know I like to waffle. Out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Byhlli Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Machiavi sounds like machiavilli?Wasn't he the ruler of Italy with Hitler? Your custom is fine but change the name a little? Seriously? -.- Is that what you think? The guy you are talking about is Mussolini. Machiavelli was a famous politician, philosopher, writer and what not and fits perfectly for the Renaissance Fluff of the BA. Kinda this. Machiavelli was all of what you say, but the adjective "machiavellian" means scheming, deceitful, cunning or unscrupulous. It's not a nice word. I think it comes from one of Machiavelli's books called Prince or The Prince or something similar which was published posthumously. From what I recall, it details a pretty cynical mentality to gaining power. I hadn't picked up on it when I was going through the Codex before. Seems a rather odd choice of name for Games Workshop to have come up with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Machiavi sounds like machiavilli?Wasn't he the ruler of Italy with Hitler? Your custom is fine but change the name a little? Seriously? -.- Is that what you think? The guy you are talking about is Mussolini. Machiavelli was a famous politician, philosopher, writer and what not and fits perfectly for the Renaissance Fluff of the BA. Kinda this. Machiavelli was all of what you say, but the adjective "machiavellian" means scheming, deceitful, cunning or unscrupulous. It's not a nice word. I think it comes from one of Machiavelli's books called Prince or The Prince or something similar which was published posthumously. From what I recall, it details a pretty cynical mentality to gaining power. I hadn't picked up on it when I was going through the Codex before. Seems a rather odd choice of name for Games Workshop to have come up with. I haven't said he was a nice guy. Quite the opposite indeed. :) But comparing him to a fascist is kind of over the top. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 well, it is sort of doable... For example ventris of the ultras inherited the sword of his previous captain, which had been made specially for him, when that broke ventris made his own iirc... Tho what you have here is a captain with a relic blade, mc meltagun and rites of battle... Why do you think he should have these? What's tycho got to do with a meltagun? Combi-bolter, i could understand- but meltagun? Explain your thinking please? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 well, it is sort of doable... For example ventris of the ultras inherited the sword of his previous captain, which had been made specially for him, when that broke ventris made his own iirc... Tho what you have here is a captain with a relic blade, mc meltagun and rites of battle... Why do you think he should have these? What's tycho got to do with a meltagun? Combi-bolter, i could understand- but meltagun? Explain your thinking please? I would argue that a combi-bolter is probably a whole heck of a lot more useful then a meltagun. For example a lot of shooters with classes have Engineers with Rocket Launchers and machine guns. Which do you use more? The Machinegun often. Despite the fact the rocket launcher is awesome its just not as useful as having a machinegun to plink at people with all the time. A second thought on the sword front is that it should be a set strength not a bonus. So that it doesnt stack with FC just like the rest of the BA characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric the Silvercoat Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 You can make the gun Bloodsong Tycho's combi-melta so the inherited after Tycho died and he had a Relic Blade made for him what gives him 6 str when using it. That would go with him being the replacement for Tycho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Niccolò Machiavelli is best known for his book The Prince. Although it wasn't strictly for Royalty, It is a book of advice for modern leaders of the time on how to maintain political power through deciet and manipulation. The Catholic Church registered it with the Index Librorum Prohibitorum ("List of Prohibited Books") Machiavellianism means "the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct" (Oxford English Dictionary) A quote from The Prince “A prince must imitate the fox and the lion, for the lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves. Those that wish to be only lions do not understand this. Therefore, a prudent ruler ought not to keep faith when by so doing it would be against his interest, and when the reasons which made him bind himself no longer exist. If men were all good, this precept would not be a good one; but as they are bad, and would not observe their faith with you, so you are not bound to keep faith with them.” My copy was lost in a fire 3 years ago along with my Sun Tzun's Art of War :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustonT Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Machiavi sounds like machiavilli?Wasn't he the ruler of Italy with Hitler? Your custom is fine but change the name a little? Seriously? -.- Is that what you think? The guy you are talking about is Mussolini. Machiavelli was a famous politician, philosopher, writer and what not and fits perfectly for the Renaissance Fluff of the BA. Kinda this. Machiavelli was all of what you say, but the adjective "machiavellian" means scheming, deceitful, cunning or unscrupulous. It's not a nice word. I think it comes from one of Machiavelli's books called Prince or The Prince or something similar which was published posthumously. From what I recall, it details a pretty cynical mentality to gaining power. I hadn't picked up on it when I was going through the Codex before. Seems a rather odd choice of name for Games Workshop to have come up with. Technically the prince was written and circulated while Machiavelli was alive, but as a letter not a book. It's a great choice for a name next to Dante. Italian writers. But the weapons choice and rules are out of place. Only Tycho has RoB in C:BA his replacement doesn't have the experience to have RoB already. If he has drawn weapons from the Armory they should not be from Tycho. Unless it's Tychos combi-Melta. If you want him to have an TL Meltagun you can't retain the flexibility of the infernus pistol without paying for it. Just a MC Infernus Pistol costs 30 points. Since you're basically taking a relic blade -1 S let's call that 20 pts. Starting on the BA Captain that puts you at 150pts in 30pts you are claiming Artificer armor, RoB, and an additional 6" of range for your infernus pistols. In the current C:SM Artificer Armor is 15 pts. So now 15pts for RoB and making your Melta pistols into guns. Not mentioning the fact that you cannot take MOST of what your suggesting as upgrades the price seems low. That being said why retain infernus pistols when using a two handed powersword that will not allow additional attacks in CC? starting from a captain and adding MC IPs you're at 130. A single handed power sword will run you 15. It's 145 points and it's actually possible. I LIKE your weapons and wargear choices, they simply aren't allowed by the codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Lets keep the discussion to the character and not to the historical significance of Machiavelli. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMac Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't understand how two infernus pistols equal one TL meltagun? They should be MC Infernus pistol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2817775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 He's probably been influenced at some point by the Sisters/Seraphim hith two hand-flamers equalling 1 flamer for shooting purposes, but still 2 CCW's in assault. Though this does kind of defeat the object by haivn ga 2-handed sword anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2818023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scumgrief Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 The idea of having it as a Meltagun was to get rid of the extra combat weapon, so he pretty much has a Meltagun and relic blade Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2818084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toaae Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 My few suggestions: Make the power sword into a unique Glaive Encarmine. So, a mastercrafted 2-hander power weapon that gives +1 strength. That way it fits more into the rest of the Blood Angels. And then, I'd drop the meltagun thing. Either give him a combi-melta as an ode to Tycho, or a master-crafted infernus pistol. Also, I think you're looking for the word "Wrath", not "Wraith". And then I think 180 points is good for this. Captain+Articifer+Glaive Encarmine+additional strength+mastercraft+infernus pistol+Rites of Battle would add up like this, I think: 100+15+15+5+15+15+15=180 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2818128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
by_any_other_names Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (Italian pronunciation: [nikkoˌlɔ makjaˈvɛlli], 3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) was an Italian historian, philosopher, humanist, and writer based in Florence during the Renaissance. He is one of the main founders of modern political science.[1] He was a diplomat, political philosopher, playwright, and a civil servant of the Florentine Republic. He also wrote comedies, carnival songs, poetry, and some of the most well-known personal correspondence in the Italian language. His position in the regime of Florence as Secretary to the Second Chancery of the Republic of Florence lasted from 1498 to 1512, the period in which the Medici were not in power. Machiavelli's most well-known writing was, however, after this period, during the time when the Medici recovered power, and Machiavelli was removed from all positions of responsibility. Ya, this guy Machiavellianism was seen as a foreign plague infecting English politics, originating in Italy, and having already infected France. It was in this context that the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of 1572 in Paris came to be seen as a product of Machiavellianism Modern estimates for the number of dead vary widely between 5,000 and 30,000 in total Captain who was associated with mass murder; Yes I should have done more research before I posted, but that was why I thought of Hitler. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2818155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scumgrief Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Tahaal I like the idea of those changes I will amend the gear when I get back to my PC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2818185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 To go with the Machiavelle theme (because of his name), make him have a rule, "It is better to be feared." And make it where they have to pass a moral test or all enemy attacks are reduced to 1 for the remainder of the phase. :lol: Kind of like Dante had the Inferno Pistol (Dante's Inferno) Machievelli gets "It is better to be feared." (If one had to choose to be loved or feared, and can not have both, it is far safer to be feared than love.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2819307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 If you want to create a character, and give him wargear that is already available (at least to Codex Marines). Captain Relic blade Combi melta Artificer armour Hellfire rounds (to make him special) Total 165 points. Now work out what points value you can assign to rites of battle. 15-20 points might be a good start, if he seems to have too great an influence bump him up a little, if nothing too spectacular try knocking him down a few points. Trial and error is how GW set their points costs really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2820164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Now work out what points value you can assign to rites of battle. 15-20 points might be a good start, if he seems to have too great an influence bump him up a little, if nothing too spectacular try knocking him down a few points. Trial and error is how GW set their points costs really. Eh, sort of. Take a look at Cassius. He's 25 points more than a regular Chaplain and has: +2 Toughness Master-crafted Combi-flamer, with Hellfire shells Feel No Pain And probably one or two more things that I can't remember. The combi-flamer on its own is almost worth the 25 points, everything else is icing that you're not paying for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2820339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Like I said, trial and error. Toughness six? Great if he's on his own or in combat, otherwise it's majority toughness for shooting. Master-crafted combi-flamer? No one in their right mind would take a master-crafted bolter, and it has no affect on the flamer. Hellfire rounds? Worth every cent, on a bike or in terminator armour. On foot they don't really play a part until you're 12 inches from the enemy but if you fire them you're not assaulting. Feel no pain? That is handy when you're toughness 6. What do you lose? The ability to customise your Chaplain. For 115 points (if I were going to take one) I'd take a Chaplain with jump pack but then assault squads are bad enough there's no point in taking them, and hence I don't need the Chaplain. He's not terrible, if you were going to take a Chaplain on foot he's probably your best option, but all his benefits have their costs and limitations as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234010-captain-machiavi/#findComment-2820393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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