Thunderlord and TWC synergy

[Grimtooth]

I am going to have to test it out, but wanted some opinions here first on my thoughts.

 

I have normally always run a thunderlord with a ss and thunder hammer. However I was thinking of running him with some TWC that would be include a thunder hammer and figured since I will have a thunder hammer in the unit I might as well swap him to a frostblade.

 

The way I see the pros:

 

1. My lord will be back at iniative, wounding pretty much at 2+ on almost everything.

2. My thunder hammer is no longer on an IC to be singled out in cc.

 

The way I see the cons:

 

1. Less thunder hammer attacks (I think).

2. No more WTN thunder hammer hits on 3+.

 

Thoughts/comments?

[Martok]

The way I see it my thunderwolves should never be going after armour my Long fangs are in charge of anti tank. Therefore, a thunderhammer in the unit is a safety blanket incase some crazy Blood Talon dread charges my TWC. My Thunder Lord is there to kill as many of the enemy as possible at a higher initiative than MEQ thus saving my TWC from massed attacks... to be honest a Thunder Lord with Frost Blade is S6 at I5 that is not to be sniffed at with A6 with Frost Blade/Storm Shield and the way I run my Lord A7 with Frostblade/CCW (plus I use Saga of the warrior born which has actually given me +7 attacks before in a second turn combat so plus the non charging 6 thats A13 needless to say I butchered the Ork Mob).

 

For me wasting the I5 on the Thunderlord is in no way worth the +4 to strength when your trying to kill scoring units.

 

My 0.02p

 

- Martok

[Sven Dragonfire]

I havnt yet finished my Wolf Lord, but he will have ss and Frostaxe. I have a unit of 4 TWC and I gave one member of the unit a SS and Frostblade, but have been using him as a proxy Wolf Lord until he is done. The high initiative of the Wolf lord plus the strength of the weapon , also with the survivability from the SS has made him extremely successful. The first time I used him and the other 3 TWC , who incidentally dont currently have a special close combat weapon because of the proxy, they butchered 6 Death Guard, then ended up in CC with a unit of Iron warriors, Khan the betrayer and a greater deamon. At the end of 3 rounds of combat all that was left was my wolf lord and 3 iron warriors, admitedly Khan did kill 4 of the original 10 iron warriors. The next game I played they charged 5 Thousand sons terminators led by a sorceror in terminator armour and butchered them all in two turns, and dint lose any wounds, though I was extremely lucky with my SS saves.

I will be changing the TWC unit member to have a Thunder hammer and definitely retain SS and Frost blade for Wolf Lord.

[dswanick]

Why do you guys go for the 30pt 3++ Storm Shield on your Lord when for 5pts less you can get a 4++ Belt of Russ and give him a CC/Plasma Pistol for a +1A?

[Lord Ragnarok]

Why do you guys go for the 30pt 3++ Storm Shield on your Lord when for 5pts less you can get a 4++ Belt of Russ and give him a CC/Plasma Pistol for a +1A?

 

To me, that is a matter of taste. I see both sides but lean towards harder to die 3++ inv.

[Vlk]

Why do you guys go for the 30pt 3++ Storm Shield on your Lord when for 5pts less you can get a 4++ Belt of Russ and give him a CC/Plasma Pistol for a +1A?

 

Because for mere 5 points you can drastically improve your lord's survivability. Trust me, 3++ is SO MUCH BETTER than 4++.

[dswanick]

Why do you guys go for the 30pt 3++ Storm Shield on your Lord when for 5pts less you can get a 4++ Belt of Russ and give him a CC/Plasma Pistol for a +1A?

 

Because for mere 5 points you can drastically improve your lord's survivability. Trust me, 3++ is SO MUCH BETTER than 4++.

But it's not "a mere 5 points", it's a mere 5pts and 1X WS6, S6, I5 power weapon attack plus a BS5, S7, AP2 pre-assault shot. All in exchange for 17% greater chance to save a wound. Especially on a model with MotWB, this just strikes me as the better choice. But, to each his own. :cuss

[Grimtooth]

The way I see it my thunderwolves should never be going after armour my Long fangs are in charge of anti tank. Therefore, a thunderhammer in the unit is a safety blanket incase some crazy Blood Talon dread charges my TWC. My Thunder Lord is there to kill as many of the enemy as possible at a higher initiative than MEQ thus saving my TWC from massed attacks... to be honest a Thunder Lord with Frost Blade is S6 at I5 that is not to be sniffed at with A6 with Frost Blade/Storm Shield and the way I run my Lord A7 with Frostblade/CCW (plus I use Saga of the warrior born which has actually given me +7 attacks before in a second turn combat so plus the non charging 6 thats A13 needless to say I butchered the Ork Mob).

 

For me wasting the I5 on the Thunderlord is in no way worth the +4 to strength when your trying to kill scoring units.

 

My 0.02p

 

- Martok

 

I would not pigeonhole your TWM/TWC so easily.

 

Long Fang packs can be decimated in one turn of Splinter Cannon fire from multiple Venoms.

 

Long Fangs are practically useless against any GK armor above Rhinos due to Fortitude and don't even think of tossing a THunderlord and TWC against those NFW.

 

Land Raiders.

 

Normally plan to phase-out, but Monoliths will not scare you when str 10 thunder hammers are around.

 

Any indirect fire IG ordance weapons your Long Fangs cannot LOS make for tasty TWC treats.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

High Initiative is a terrible thing to waste. Just saying.

[Hear da Lamentation]

With either a frostblade or wc - I thought the extra ccw / pistol doesn't give you an extra attack - I thought you needed 2 of the weapon type. Am I wrong there?

 

But in essence I would agree. Put the TH str10 attacks on someone who can't be singled and out take advantage of your higher initiative. Personally I prefer WolfClaw though - for the rerolls to hit (you are usually going to be wounding on a 3+. 2+ is better, but re-rolling to hits (which will probably be 4+) is better, imo.

[dswanick]

With either a frostblade or wc - I thought the extra ccw / pistol doesn't give you an extra attack - I thought you needed 2 of the weapon type. Am I wrong there?

 

But in essence I would agree. Put the TH str10 attacks on someone who can't be singled and out take advantage of your higher initiative. Personally I prefer WolfClaw though - for the rerolls to hit (you are usually going to be wounding on a 3+. 2+ is better, but re-rolling to hits (which will probably be 4+) is better, imo.

Frost blades are uber-power weapons - special weapons get a bonus attack from a regular CCW/pistol.

Wolf Claws are uber-Lightning Claws - they are specifically excluded from getting a bonus attack unless paired with another of the same item (al la Lightning Claws, Thunder Hammers, and Power Fists).

[Martok]

The way I see it my thunderwolves should never be going after armour my Long fangs are in charge of anti tank. Therefore, a thunderhammer in the unit is a safety blanket incase some crazy Blood Talon dread charges my TWC. My Thunder Lord is there to kill as many of the enemy as possible at a higher initiative than MEQ thus saving my TWC from massed attacks... to be honest a Thunder Lord with Frost Blade is S6 at I5 that is not to be sniffed at with A6 with Frost Blade/Storm Shield and the way I run my Lord A7 with Frostblade/CCW (plus I use Saga of the warrior born which has actually given me +7 attacks before in a second turn combat so plus the non charging 6 thats A13 needless to say I butchered the Ork Mob).

 

For me wasting the I5 on the Thunderlord is in no way worth the +4 to strength when your trying to kill scoring units.

 

My 0.02p

 

- Martok

 

I would not pigeonhole your TWM/TWC so easily.

 

Long Fang packs can be decimated in one turn of Splinter Cannon fire from multiple Venoms.

 

Long Fangs are practically useless against any GK armor above Rhinos due to Fortitude and don't even think of tossing a THunderlord and TWC against those NFW.

 

Land Raiders.

 

Normally plan to phase-out, but Monoliths will not scare you when str 10 thunder hammers are around.

 

Any indirect fire IG ordance weapons your Long Fangs cannot LOS make for tasty TWC treats.

 

I can see you point here and it is indeed why I put a Thunder Hammer in my TWC late game hes usually the only TWC left and he takes on back line armour but seeing as hitting armour is completely determined by vehicle speed and not WS then there is no difference between a Thunder Hammer TWC and TWL for anti tank except for the attacks where a TWL's stats become overkill (auto hitting a basilisk with auto glance against rear armour 10 with 6 attacks.. erm..).

 

Now if we take a look at the other side of the argument (ie Frost Blade/Wolf Claw vs Thunder Hammer) there is a massive difference between a TWL with Frost Blade compared to a TWC with Frost Blade. Most importantly to me is the fact that the TWL has initiative over the TWC this is massive. The initiative will mean that a death co unit that has just charged you with furious charge will actually take some hits from the lord while they decimate your unit if he had that hammer the whole unit would simply be dead.

 

In the end the late game mop up you refer to is just as well done with a TWL at S6 with 6-7 attacks and a TWC guy with a thunder hammer as it is by a TWL with a hammer but the S6 TWL will be wrecking scoring units all game.

 

In my experience every wound your TWC take is massive and i will do everything I possibly can to try and keep them all on one wound. Letting the unit take a pounding while I am waiting for the TWL's I1 hammer seems a waste of TWC wounds. Say I kill 4 BA assault marines with my lord at I5 then that is 8 less attacks being thrown at my TWC at I4.

 

In my experience with Dark Eldar thus far is that Long Fang missiles make a mess of their transports but high Initiative and poison ruin the TWC party furthermore Grey Knights have a major advantage against ANY unit that has multi wounds. I see your point but TWC will always have bad matchups (such as BA 3 x Vindicator lists I hate them lol).

 

With Crons I will stick to S8 AP3 Kraks to push the phase out but S10 hammers certainly do help when that monolith gets close enough to throw pie plates around B)

 

- Martok

[Max_Dammit]

I take him with 4 normal TWM, I take the frostblade, normaly the units i want them to kill wil be in the back and got a screen of infantry, I want to get trough those ASAP with minimum of hits back (mas infantry is the bane as lots of attacks will kill them just as a normal marine (about)) so every attacker thats dead, its less attacks.

 

After that speed bumb the lord goes of on his own, again i want him to hit first as his 2+3+ save is OK but a attack not made is a save not taken.

[Wysten]

Depends what exactly you want the Wolf Lord to do really. Kill infantry and have a decent chance of damaging mosters and other tough charcters, or aim to kill everything but hit slow.

 

Personally, I am a fan of Wolf Claw/blade myself. Largely because a wolf lord will want to be shredding infantry due to the fact he's a IC, meaning he will be exposed to attacks constantly, or will be breaking off the Thunder Wolf Pack to tie up another unit. While he should never be assualting armour unless as a absolute last resort (meltaguns, your long ranged fire, wolf scouts, the wolf lord should only attacking tanks if there are no better targets or it's something fairly threatening.) the strength 10 may have advantage to crack pretty much anything at the cost of going last. Which may not mean much to the typical unit, but when your crashing fighty units together it could be pretty rough. Good thing with Frost Blade is it allows you a decent chance of roughing up some tanks.

 

I understand the belt of russ, again, it depends who he's against. With GK out in force, you really need the sheild compared to the extra attack. It's tempting to use a plasma pistol on him though. lolz

[Martok]

Depends what exactly you want the Wolf Lord to do really. Kill infantry and have a decent chance of damaging mosters and other tough charcters, or aim to kill everything but hit slow.

 

Personally, I am a fan of Wolf Claw/blade myself. Largely because a wolf lord will want to be shredding infantry due to the fact he's a IC, meaning he will be exposed to attacks constantly, or will be breaking off the Thunder Wolf Pack to tie up another unit. While he should never be assualting armour unless as a absolute last resort (meltaguns, your long ranged fire, wolf scouts, the wolf lord should only attacking tanks if there are no better targets or it's something fairly threatening.) the strength 10 may have advantage to crack pretty much anything at the cost of going last. Which may not mean much to the typical unit, but when your crashing fighty units together it could be pretty rough. Good thing with Frost Blade is it allows you a decent chance of roughing up some tanks.

 

I understand the belt of russ, again, it depends who he's against. With GK out in force, you really need the sheild compared to the extra attack. It's tempting to use a plasma pistol on him though. lolz

 

Personally I don't remember any early game charges (which is what you want from TWC) where I did not need to use my fleet first so any guns on my TWC are irrelevant in my experience.

 

I have always used the TWC to kill the enemies troops its what they are good at with so many attacks. At the risk of pigeon holing them i just don't think they are a jack of all trades unit yes you can kit them out to take on everything but as they are suitably expensive to start with I prefer kitting them to kill as many troops as quickly as possible.

 

Grey Knights as I said before are a problem for all multi wound units you are spot on with the SS being crucial for them as well as Saga of the Bear to shut down instant death. in fact I used to run my TWL exactly in this way but I found i would get bogged down by large infantry units so i went to using Warrior Borne which essentially assures you that the enemy will not survive two rounds of combat thus freeing me up for another charge when we are back in my turn. I don't understand why Grey Knights are so scary though.. they have half as many boots on the ground. At 1500pts more than 30 GKs is unlikely so between my 15 kraks they are eating one each after two turns... also they are relying on their troops to do the killing which makes it a pain to score objectives (my blood angels have the same problem i find). Grey Knights certainly change the way you use TWC but tailoring the unit in fear of them seems a knee jerk reaction which will be wasting points against most other armies.

 

- Martok

[Wysten]

I am not really talking about tutoring though, it's more taking into consideration what is out there.

 

I know most armours will have a unit that will ignore armour, I expect most armies to have power fists due to nearly half of the codexes being marines. So it is a good assumtion that by being prepaired to face GK, you are also still prepaired to face the several other marine varients out there. A wolf lord needs to be ready for absolutely everything considering even a fairly standard wolf lord costs a Grey Hunter Squad. Hence the sheild is probably more generally useful.

[Martok]

I am not really talking about tutoring though, it's more taking into consideration what is out there.

 

I know most armours will have a unit that will ignore armour, I expect most armies to have power fists due to nearly half of the codexes being marines. So it is a good assumtion that by being prepaired to face GK, you are also still prepaired to face the several other marine varients out there. A wolf lord needs to be ready for absolutely everything considering even a fairly standard wolf lord costs a Grey Hunter Squad. Hence the sheild is probably more generally useful.

 

I might be missing your point here.... The thing that separates GKs from other MEQ is the fact that they are all holding FWs which is a massive risk for a Wolf Lord when in combat. With MEQ sure you have fists but you are T5 base so a fist is just a PW that wounds easier... it also strikes last so with any luck my TWC have killed the unit lol but yes they can throw some wounds on my TWL for sure.

 

I actually expect my TWC to die. Having said that they do survive more games then they don't but I don't see the need to use points to make sure that my TWL lives the whole game. As far as I see it if I give up two KPs while my Long Fangs are raking them in it doesn't really matter. Similarly if my TWC have murdered the oppositions scoring units then sure I would like them to continue wrecking house but as long as my GHs hold their own on their objectives the game is in the bag. Push Thunderwolves going straight at the enemy usually forces them into their deployment zone and then when the TWC are dead they are still in their deployment leaving little they can do to threaten your GHs. Fast armies play havoc with this plan for sure but then the GHs as we all know are badass enough to look after themselves 9/10ths of the time.

 

I think the very point of why Wolves do so well in the tournament meta is that they are pretty well balanced against 90% of enemy armies and builds with seriously offensive troops long range fire so cheap that even I can't justify it (seriously 5 long fangs with rockets are cheaper then 4 Marine Rockets and they have Acute Senses, Split Fire and Counter attack... go figure). Now in an all comers list I actually don't think TWC have any place at all. They have a few counters but those counters will remove them from the board (Vindicator) without a whole lot of effort but 90% of the time they are an indomitable beat stick that cannot be ignored. I think the fact that they MUST be dealt with is there strongest attribute as most of the time you can flank an opponent actually dragging half their army to deal with the threat but still have the speed to cut back into their main lines usually leaving your firebase and GHs to get down to business unopposed.

 

- Martok

[Wysten]

The thing is, what works for power fists, also works for GK force weapons. So that the storm sheild on Lord is more or less nessiary for that matchup, but also has a wide range of applications on many a list. Namely being able to endure fists, meltaguns and other things that ignore armour, which is fairly common depending on the lords setup, whether he choses to take runic armour to a scrap and so fourth. While a fist in a unit is a lesser threat compared to a mass of force weapons, it still has an application for those occations where you do take a nudge.

 

Personally, Wolf lords generally don't belong on balienced lists as the cost of him and his very aggressive orientation pretty much requires the rest of the army to be very aggressive to support the splash he and other TW makes. Taking a Wolf Lord forces the rest of the list to tutor to him which results in a list often having to require support. It's like taking a squad of CC terminators in that unless your podding them in, you are often forced to take a landraider or use them in a more supportive role by lining them up infront of your advance as offensive bubble warp, that they produce cover if you shoot through them and that they are tough enough not to charge. Only instead replace the CC squad with the lord, and the Raider with the Thunder Wolf. Thunder Wolves themselves also do simlar tutoring, but are relatively cheap in cost in compersion to the full blown lord and typically carry much more wounds anyway, so are nice distractions at worst, and a real thron at best.

 

Generally though, I agree Space Wolves are a balenced army in the sense that they can fight pretty much everything and still have something over the other side. Be it being better in combat, shooting or simply outnumbering them as the case is. Just when we are talking about Wolf Lords, it's never about balience, since a balienced list has no real requirement for a wolf lord over Thunder wolf due to simply how expensive he is in compersion to what he does. Rather, if a wolf lord is used, it's best to equip him so he can go toe to toe with most things and be able to do some serious damage. My arguement is that he probably should take the stormsheild as with the current rules, he is likely to be taking power fist hits at least, and dueling gigantic creatures at worst where his armour and toughness is likely to be mimimally useful, if not void.

 

How much better a plasma pistol and Belt is compared to simply taking a storm sheild probably needs testing, but taking the belt comprimises his ability to take hits off other units could hurt. Most of the time he should be shreading through troops choices and semihard combat units like BA assualt squads and other grey hunters anyways.

[Martok]

@ Wysten - I am on board. I get called cheesy for the Thunderwolves but in all honest a list without them can be far more worrying (what 4x rune priests all with living lightning and another random power all in rhinos with GHs backed by long fangs.. that will hammer you then when you charge it will butcher you). The fact is that every time a TWC unit steam rolls 4-5 units there are an equal number of times that the unit gets annihilated before doing anything (Vindicators, GK purifiers with I6 FWs etc etc).

 

If you are going for balance then Thunderwolves are not the way as after all a decent 4 TWC with TWL is easily 500pts which is 1/3 of the army at 1500pts. I myself absolutely love them they kick so much ass when they get going but they just aren't viable 100% of the time whereas GH, LF and RP spam is really really reliable.

 

In terms of SS vs Belt of Russ I think that is 100% player taste in the end.. if i was going to take a SS i would probably take a thunderhammer and start going after beasties but not all armies have beasties so I find it better to load up for maximum attacks and then hopefully avoid the big stuff and hunt anything that can score unless its KPs then go for the quickest KPs you can find.

 

- Martok

[Bikeninja]

I run my Thunderlord with a frost axe and storm shield on a TW. That in my opinion is the way to go. With that build I give him Saga of the bear though. It increases his survivability and gives him the staying power that is needed in close combat. I think you will like it.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I run my lord with claw and shield, but to be honest I've not played a game large enough to justify taking him. He just collects dust on the shelf.

 

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5057/5467641027_f1f9ca9d24_z.jpg

[Godhead]

I love my lord, and I don't fear GK's NFW's as I take the wtt, sage of the bear, and I typically have a Runepriest nearby. The thing to fear is the str 5 stormbolters and psycannons.

[SamaNagol]

Why? You have T5 and a 2+ save. It would take around 18 S5 Storm Bolter shots to cause 1 wound on the Lord.

[Grimtooth]

Why? You have T5 and a 2+ save. It would take around 18 S5 Storm Bolter shots to cause 1 wound on the Lord.

 

Volume of fire is a female Fenrisian wolf. I personally would be more cautious of the psycannons due to rending, but volume of fire in general is a viable threat to thunderwolves. Load up enough wounds and 1's will get rolled, Law of Wargaming #4542.