Codicier Lucion Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 To those reading this you have been warned, this post may contain spoilers for future reveals in the Horus Heresy novel series. I have been looking through my copy of Visions of Heresy recently and I might have found something. While I doubt that I am the first to realise this, there are names and apparent hints of events during the novels within the illustrations. Subtle ones but specific ones which suggested things to come. For example in one of the few illustrations of the Alpha Legion on page 293 it was given the title "Voluntary Sacrifice" and a legionary descending into darkness with what I assume was Horus grinning behind him. Something which might have hinted their loyalties shown in Legion. A few pages before, on 286, the Custodian Guard Aquillon was named and on page 265 a daemon named Ingethel the Ascended was displayed apparently advising the leaders of the heresy. But what I found most interesting was the images and mentions of the character Torgaddon. The images of him shown seem to suggest him being fully allied with chaos. His head shrunken and covered in bionics and his armour defaced by chaotic imagery, that specific one was shown on page 192. A later one on page 366 listed him again, this time specifically as Horus' bodyguard. No other images I have found show loyal or traitor characters on apparently opposing sides, so could this be a hint of what is to come? We've already seen one character literally brought back from the dead, so could Torgaddon's corpse be used to house a daemon to act as Horus' bodyguard? It does sound like something the traitor legions would do to specifically say "up yours" to any loyalists and perhaps one specific knight errant in particular. I'm sure there are more hints listed in the book's images either of past novels or portraits of characters already known. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalythos Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Chaos Torgaddon was seen in a vision by Loken, possibly in an attempt to reconcile the artwork with the actual plotline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2818574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 At the moment Torgaddon is still quite dead.. would be suprised that they revive him, there has been quite some time that has passed.. In comparison with Grulgor, Grulgor was revived shortly after his death, not a few years after.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Chaos Torgaddon was seen in a vision by Loken, possibly in an attempt to reconcile the artwork with the actual plotline. Could you please tell me book was that in? And did it include the bionic bits and shrunken head? At the moment Torgaddon is still quite dead.. would be suprised that they revive him, there has been quite some time that has passed..In comparison with Grulgor, Grulgor was revived shortly after his death, not a few years after.. True, but that had the Warp involved so time can't be fully measured in this case. Plus unlike Torgaddon Grulgor was hit full in the face by a life eater virus so his body would have turned to mush a lot faster than normal decay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hang on... isn't Torgaddon currently minus his head atm? Also, wasn't he a particularly staunch loyalist when he died? :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hang on... isn't Torgaddon currently minus his head atm? Also, wasn't he a particularly staunch loyalist when he died? :lol: but as loken, gandalf and magneto proved, death is a revolving door. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hang on... isn't Torgaddon currently minus his head atm? Also, wasn't he a particularly staunch loyalist when he died? :confused: but as loken, gandalf and magneto proved, death is a revolving door. WLK True, true, hence my caveat/second question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 There are quite a few inaccuracies within the Visions series where the names and the pictures don't marry. I can't think of a specific example at the moment and the book isn't to hand, but this could be an example of it, especially with the 'addon' bit being common to many of the traitors names in the visions book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Chaos Torgaddon was seen in a vision by Loken, possibly in an attempt to reconcile the artwork with the actual plotline. Pretty much how i saw it to be fair. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2819788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The HH Artbooks were out before the HH Novels so there are some instances where things won't line up. The Torgaddon piece is one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2820806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I've had a read/flick through of my mates Visions of Heresy and i've noticed a couple of pictures being paired with the caption/quote. Not sure if this is an oversight. It'd be interesting to hear what the authors make of the VOH book and how it fits with how they write. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2820907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I've had a read/flick through of my mates Visions of Heresy and i've noticed a couple of pictures being paired with the caption/quote. Not sure if this is an oversight. It'd be interesting to hear what the authors make of the VOH book and how it fits with how they write. Some of the stuff so far is drawn from or ties directly into Collected Visions, actually, so its probably being used as a primary source for fluffing out the novels. For example, the Kaban Machine from Mechanicum. Its creation and corruption is detailed in narrative form in the Visions. The Titan that one of the Thousand Sons controlled in A Thousand Sons -- the names escapes me at the moment -- is also shown in the book and labeled in the caption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2820990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterEste Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The HH Artbooks were out before the HH Novels so there are some instances where things won't line up. The Torgaddon piece is one of them. So, here's a quick question for you all, which is considered 'canon'. The older HH Artbooks, or the new HH novels? Has GW ever come out and plainly said "this series is canon, anything different from the old materials will be considered a retcon'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2822647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Usually retcons will take precedent over older fluff - it's been done so many times I cannot currently think of a counter-example for older fluff overriding newer fluff but there's bound to be one or two somewhere. :) That said, I believe the Horus Heresy novel series is considered canon, running roughshod over all before it. Remember when Alpharius didn't have a twin? Feels like a while ago now, eh? :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2822654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The HH Artbooks were out before the HH Novels so there are some instances where things won't line up. The Torgaddon piece is one of them. So, here's a quick question for you all, which is considered 'canon'. The older HH Artbooks, or the new HH novels? Has GW ever come out and plainly said "this series is canon, anything different from the old materials will be considered a retcon'? GW doesn't think about it in quite the same terms as that. Anything (from GW, Forge World, or Black Library) that's newer than anything else is considered canon. In this case, yeah, Collected Visions is being updated, retconned, and so on. The novel series is the detailed, full canon. http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2823075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Anything (from GW, Forge World, or Black Library) that's newer than anything else is considered canon. In this case, yeah, Collected Visions is being updated, retconned, and so on. The novel series is the detailed, full canon. Thank god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234052-visions-of-what-is-to-come/#findComment-2823093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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