Hatred for the Captains

[GreatEscape_13]

I'm interested in the fact that so many people repeat the mantra "captains are not worth the points" when talking about our HQ options. I want to work thru the logic, without resorting to special characters, since a ) some of us hate them, and b ) i play a successor chapter (and counts-as might as well be counts-ass imo).

 

Chaplains are 30 points more for a "free" power weapon, liturgy re-rolls (useful on the charge), and fearless (a wash of plus and minus). 4+ rosarius is same as iron halo.

 

Librarians are the same points for a hood (psychic defense, good vs. certain armies), a force weapon, and a potential two useful psychic powers depending on role (takes +50 points if we want to stack powers, or use the force weapon in a turn we have already used a power). Of course, only two wounds and two attacks. And no invulnerable save w/o spending big points on Termi armor (and storm shield for the best).

 

So what our captain can do:

 

1) Take lightning claws. In a world of high toughness foes, is re-rolling the to-wound preferable to the chaplain's to-hit (solo, maybe... less so w/ squad)?

2) Take thunder hammer. Nifty perks for the extra 5 points over the fist, and can be taken in just power armor.

3) Take storm shield (tho the iron halo is usually enough imo) w/o termi armor like libby (chaplain can't at all).

4) WS 6 rather than 5. Makes them much more likely to hit on 3s when facing "elite" opponents.

 

I'm not convinced that the captain is heads and shoulders better, but I also don't see why he is heads and shoulders worse either. Seems like a character/elite killer, with more customizable options. That doesn't seem like "not worth the points" to me.

 

I'd love some feedback, or response. Anything I'm missing? Other reasoning for the captain? Other reasons to reject him?

 

Cheers.

[JamesI]

So what our captain can do:

 

1) Take lightning claws. In a world of high toughness foes, is re-rolling the to-wound preferable to the chaplain's to-hit (solo, maybe... less so w/ squad)?

2) Take thunder hammer. Nifty perks for the extra 5 points over the fist, and can be taken in just power armor.

3) Take storm shield (tho the iron halo is usually enough imo) w/o termi armor like libby (chaplain can't at all).

4) WS 6 rather than 5. Makes them much more likely to hit on 3s when facing "elite" opponents.

1. Lightning claws are nice. 5 furious charging attacks, rerolling to wound are nice. But, the chaplain or libby can provide rerolls to hit to the entire squad. 30+ attack with rerolls to hit, or 5 rerolling to wound?

2) Captain with Thunder hammer is barely cheaper than Reclusiarch with Power fist, and doesn't have the option of still using a power weapon.

3) Is 1point to invul worth the points? Not in my opinion.

4) Nice, but not a great bonus.

 

In my mind, nothing the captain provides can outweigh the rerolls to hit provided by the other 2 generic HQs. 1 on 1, the captain is better than a reclusiarch or a librarian. But the Reclusiarch and Librarian make those around them better, the captain does not.

 

I used to run a lightning claw captain with jump pack. Then I realized the Reclusiarch with jump pack cost the same amount.

[Martok]

So what our captain can do:

 

In my mind, nothing the captain provides can outweigh the rerolls to hit provided by the other 2 generic HQs. 1 on 1, the captain is better than a reclusiarch or a librarian. But the Reclusiarch and Librarian make those around them better, the captain does not.

 

I used to run a lightning claw captain with jump pack. Then I realized the Reclusiarch with jump pack cost the same amount.

 

This is spot on. The new Blood Angels are all about force multipliers (Sang Priest, Liby with Unleash rage/Shield, Reclusiarch/Chaplain) who make your rank and file assault marines flying around in fast vehicles much more powerful and far more survivable. For two Captains you get a fair addition to power weapon kills in combat but with 1 librarian and a sang priest you can get 9 guys from the Libbys rhino sitting next to the priest throwing out attack at S5 I5 with rerolls to hit and then when the opponent hits back you get FnP. The example HQs work out cheaper as 2 captains with no power weapon = 200 and then libby with force weapon etc and a priest = 150. Its hard to justify the captain unforunately. its a real shame tbh.

 

- Martok

[Deus_Sanguinius]

The thing is the common consensus on the internet is the BA Captains "suck" but there is often little explanation. The Captain is a great combat model which would be useful in any army. The problem which makes them "suck" is there are simply other choices in the army list which give the same performance with additional benefits.

 

The Captain is still a good choice, it's just hard to make a choice for something when there is something else in the list which is just as good with additional benefits.

 

 

I think this statement hits the nail right on the head. I like the Captain and I believe you can still play him in a decent way (dual LC and JP). His only problem is that he isn't a force multiplier like the Libby and Reclusiarch for the same amount of points.

 

Cheers

Sang

[breng77]

Captains are really not popular in any SM army (WOlf Lords are I guess) unless it is a codex SM captain on bike to unlock bikes as troops. I also disagree that re-rolls to hit is any worse than rerolls to wound. I would take re-rolls to hit any day(unless you have rending). I look at it this way, you need to hit something before you can wound it, and while odds say a captain should hit 4ish times on the charge, it does not always work out that way (I have had captains with lightning claws miss so often it is not even funny). Then given that the chaplian ability is squad wide trumps the captain by far. IMO the captain would need one of the following to make him worth taking. 1.) Rites of Battle -board wide LD 10 is always nice. 2.) Mounted Assault - to allow bikes as troops (though this would take away one of codex marines last viable builds). 3.) Make him cheaper if he was like 80 or 90 points base, then you could make an argument for upgrading hime. 4.) Give him Grey Knight GM like ability to alter your armies tactics/alter reserve rolls/deployment etc.

[Brother Nathan]

or give him aces to a relic blade then he can efficently fight...but yea for what he costs below a chaplin... essientially a recluseiarch provides rerolls for 15 when you factor in that he comes with a powerweapon... and yet i still prefer a libarian fro sheilding my guys and then providing the buff to the squad when they reach cc. my characters always whiff their acctacks so the drop in stats dosent really bother me...

[toaae]

I've said this before, and I still stand by it:

 

Captains aren't always useless. The point as to why we don't take them is because they don't have a buff to give out, which means it's more effective to take a Reclusiarch.

 

However, if you are already taking a Reclusiarch (or Librarian with Unleash Rage), then he is a better character to add to the same unit. Fun Fact: Captains are the only characters who can take Twin Lightning Claws that have more than two base attacks. Of the 3 choices, he is the best single killer. Equip him with the claws, make sure he gets re-rolls to hit and Furious Charge, and add him to a squad to add some slicing-and-dicing.

 

At 155 points (including jump pack), his 5 WS6, S6, I6 re-roll hits and wounds attacks on the charge are good.

 

But, thats 155 on top of the 125, 155, or 175 you already spent on a libby/reclusiarch/epistolary. It's a decent cost. I would venture to guess, though, that a Captain, priest with Power Weapon, and a libby/reclusiarch would greatly beef up the killing potential of a regular Assault Squad.

 

I just need to make one myself to try it out.

[Sokhar]

Captains (both BA and Codex) aren't bad, just other options are better. They need to take the Grey Knight Grand Master concept and run with it. Let Captains provide some rule/benefit to the army. FOC swap, making a unit(s) scoring, special rule, something. They're certainly kill-y, but you need to get more than that out of your HQ slot, unless you're getting a top-tier beatstick like Mephiston.

 

Or just give them access to a psychic hood or similar piece of kit. Can't really think of a reason for them to have it, but with psychic defense either way, I'd consider his increased combat potential a fair trade-off for the utility of the Librarian's psychic powers. :P

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

The problem is that they're just a combat character. They don't synergise well with the rest of the armies, unlike the 4th edition captains, since they have no real benefit to it. Compared to the Reclusiarch, whom I dearly wish to have in the Vanilla dex like last edition, he's not great. The Reclusiarch buffs any combat unit in your army and makes them a real hammer unit, while the Librarian has all sorts of useful abilities like the shield. Sure, the captain is good for a close combat character, but why not take some Vanguard or something if you want that?

[shan vener]

actually in freindly games i use captains.

its kinda fun to have a captain with TDA and 2 hammers. :P

[Drachnon]

IMO there are several things that GW could have done to make captains more viable in the BA codex.

1. Start off with a power weapon, compared to the reclusiarch and Librarian who both carry power(/force) weapons the captain has are normal close combat weapon as base weapon while for the points you pay you'd expect him to come with one as well.

2. Change FOC, had assault marines been fast attack and become troops when fielding a captain we probably would have looked at a completely different meta game for the BA. An other option would be he makes 1 VV squad troops instead.

3. More options, Relic blades would be nice. Also upgrade to make a weapon master crafted doesn't seem like that much to ask. Perhaps something like the space wolves with their saga abilities.

4. Some special rules to make him a viable close combat hero. The captain has nothing to his name to make him better in close combat which right now seems like its supposed to be his role. Perhaps allowing him heroic intervention when joined to a VV squad.

5. Buff the army, Rites of battle would have been nice perhaps they could have thought up something else like stubborn for all BA within 12".

6. Better statline, right now the captains stats are nothing special, if you compare him to the reclusiarch he only has 1 more ws making him not the go to choice when you want a character good in close combat. He could have done with +1 in either W,I or A.

[jakeraven]

I have had success using a captain armed with TDA with a Thunder hammer and storm shield. i have been playtesting my ard boyz list alot. i run him in a terminator squad. last game i played he helped his squad tear through a tyranid deathstar. i had a priest in TDA in the squad too. i have ran Reclusiarchs and Libbys before with and done well. There are alot of grey knight players in my group and they tear my libby to shredds now....:P so i am running a psyker free army for ard boyz with a captain!