Destroyed...

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

Hello to all!!

 

I recently played two 1500(ish) point annihalation matches with some guys at my local, I am still quite fresh in gaming terms (I've only played 5 in total!) and as such I'm a little shakey with some of the rules.

Yes, I have a few rule questions but first, I must say that my main point is to have fun wih the games, some people(as you may know) take games quite serious...

 

Before my Q's, here's my 1500ish list (in shorthand) and some stuff from the games...

 

FLESH EATERS (Although they didn't eat much...)

 

Captain

2xLC, JP

 

Sang priest

LC, JP

 

Chaplain

PF

 

Death Company x9

1 PF, 1 PP+CCW, 3x BP + CCW, 5 BG

 

(DC are Mounted in Drop Pod with Chaplain)

Drop Pod

Deathwind ML, Locator Beacon

 

Assault Squad x 10

2x MG, Serg has: IP+PF

 

Assault Squad x 10

2x Flamer, Serg has: 2x LC

 

DC Dreadnought – HF, Blood Talons

 

(Dread is mounted in Drop Pod)

Drop Pod - Deathwind ML

 

Assault Squad x 6

MG, 4 x BP+CCW, Serg has: TH+BP

 

(Assault Squad is mounted in Razorback)

Razorback – Twin-Linked Assault Cannon

 

 

Ok so for those of you still reading;

Basically, the same thing happened in both games:

I deepstriked everything that could, Turn 1 or 2 always saw my RZRBack get shot to pieces (even though I tried moving flat out and stay in some form of cover)

The first DP goes near the middle but more towards the enemy. My DC always got shot to pieces then the remainder got assaulted and killed in 2 turns without doing anything notable.

The DC Dread (Always deployed behind the 1st DP anti-scatter and in cover) Somehow gets in range of weaponary and gets immobilised/cannot fire/wrecked..The only time it charged into assault it got wrecked straight up and kills no one?

Then the remainder of my force is shot up and killed...all in all I took down 8 Orks and 7 Marines.

Obviously something is awry...

 

[i must point out, I do own a codex, but thought I'd go with the flow...]

 

Firstly; I had someone argue that Marines can move and rapid fire once at max range and twice a half range is this true? He cited something about a rule amendment in WD??

 

Secondly; The FNP rule, I was 100% sure that it can't be used against power weapons or weapons that cause insta-death, ie powerfists but again, this player assured me it could? Also, this rule taken after you have failed an armour save but not for failed invunrable saves against Blood Talons..

 

Thridly; Blood Talons, No armour save other than invunrables right? And every wound I immediately get another attack?

 

And Lastly; Why can't find my rule book?

 

Phew :) Long post!!

 

Any help will be muchly appreciated...

 

Yours in Honour, Faith and Blood,

Chaplain Hiltraud

[Rob_Loken]

FnP cannot be used against power weapons or things that would cause instant death. You cannot use it after invulnerable saves. And Blood Talons work like lightning claws and are power weapons so only invuns can be taken. And yes every unsaved wound caused by you allows you another attack.

 

And is he saying that marines are getting 4 shots a turn with rapid fire?

 

Hope some of that helps.

[Coopervisor]

Firstly; I had someone argue that Marines can move and rapid fire once at max range and twice a half range is this true? He cited something about a rule amendment in WD??

 

Secondly; The FNP rule, I was 100% sure that it can't be used against power weapons or weapons that cause insta-death, ie powerfists but again, this player assured me it could? Also, this rule taken after you have failed an armour save but not for failed invunrable saves against Blood Talons..

 

Thridly; Blood Talons, No armour save other than invunrables right? And every wound I immediately get another attack?

 

I'll try and answer these;

1st - Rapid fire means you can fire twice at a shorter range. If you don't move you have the choice, 2 shots at short range or 1 at long range. If you move, you only have the option of 2 shots at short range. Think of the marines having to stand aiming down the sights for the long shot. I don't get WD so i'm not sure if he is correct, but unless he could show you the article, then the safe bet is to go off the Rule Book and Codex.

 

2nd - FNP is ignored by anything that also ignores saves (this includes power weapons, AP1 and AP2 weapons, etc). FNP is taken after your normal save has failed (if you have one). If your 3+ save is beat by an AP3 weapon, you would still get your FNP as long as it doesn't fail on any other criteria (eg Str double T) So you are right and the player was wrong.

 

3rd - Correct, every unsaved wound gets you another attack.

[Coopervisor]

You cannot use it after invulnerable saves.

 

I can't find this mentioned in the rule book, is it something that has been FAQ'd since?

[Claws of Corax]

If it helps.. I use this analogy to explain rapid fire..

 

In order to get a longer ranged shot the bolter is brought up to the shoulder and sighted and firing a single shot like a sniper.. It's therefore very difficult to control a gun on full auto and maintain accuracy when sighting.

 

For the shorter range shots the marine is shooting from the hip.. as the models suggest.. The marine is shooting on full auto into a mess of enemies.

 

Putting this into the game format.. a marine can single shoot (snipe) only if he has stood still but has the option to autofire if he stands still or marches forward firing.

 

Claws

[thade]

There are no such "rule amendments in White Dwarf"; sounds like he was taking you for a ride. >_< Any legit rule amendments will appear in either the BRB or relevant codex FAQ; NONE of them allow a rapid-fire weapon to work the way he's describing.

 

As has been said, FNP doesn't work against Power Weapons; it says that pretty clearly in its USR entry in the BRB.

 

And yes on all counts for Blood Talons, with one tiny clarification: you get another attack with every unsaved wound...so wounds inflicted but saved (via an invuln save, the only way they can be saved) do not garner you additional attacks.

 

You get those rules issues cleared up, I think you'll find things will go differently for you. Now, on to your list. :)

 

Deathwind MLs aren't worth it, IMHO; drop it and go with a Locator Beacon (to help units in subsequent turns to DS nearby)...or just drop it altogether.

 

Don't forget that Descent of Angels (Blood Angels specific rule) allows you to re-roll reserve dice for your jump-pack wearing units, giving you better control over when they do (and don't) come on to the table. It doesn't work for your Drop Pods, but it can help you with a common weakness in DSing lists...which is that your guys come in too staggered and are easily focus-fired.

 

You say you took down "8 orks and 7 marines". Was this a 2v1 match? Or two different games? Why people would go 2v1 against someone new is beyond me. ;)

[Slyfox1990]

Basically:

 

1. You can either fire 1 shot at 12" or more. Or you can fire 2 shots at 12" or less. If you move then you cannot take a shot above 12". If the shot is below 12" you can always fire. Whatever he said was absolute bull ;) so ignore that in future. Never heard of WD doing rule updates before.

 

2. Not certain but I believe it is just for normal failed armour saves. If there is any reason a save is ignored then FnP will not work.

 

3.

And yes on all counts for Blood Talons, with one tiny clarification: you get another attack with every unsaved wound...so wounds inflicted but saved (via an invuln save, the only way they can be saved) do not garner you additional attacks.

 

I won't comment on the list personally as others will have better advice.

[JamesI]

Feel No Pain can be used after an invul save, as long as the other conditions are met (such as not a power weapon, not Instant Death, not AP1/2) Though this is mostly relevant only for Demons/.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

Thanks for the replies and clarification on the rules everyone ;)

 

It was just as I thought, I mean, I know I'm new but I have scoured the Rulebook and Codex, mostly for pics for cool conversion ideas, and have read many rules and such along the way.

 

I hate the idea of this but I may have to keep the books handy ready to flick to the relevant page when arguements come up...

 

Claws of Corax; I like that analogy and may use that in the future :)

 

Thade; I had a Locator beacon in the first Pod and basically everything DS'd near to it second turn (lucky rolls...maybe) I am thinking of dropping the Deathwind Launchers but they were the only things that constantly hit stuff and got ignored...

 

And it was 2 seperate matches that I played. But as I said, the same thing happened both times, maybe I was out manovoured?

 

Thanks again

Chaplain Hiltraud

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Thanks for the replies and clarification on the rules everyone :)

 

It was just as I thought, I mean, I know I'm new but I have scoured the Rulebook and Codex, mostly for pics for cool conversion ideas, and have read many rules and such along the way.

 

I hate the idea of this but I may have to keep the books handy ready to flick to the relevant page when arguements come up...

 

Claws of Corax; I like that analogy and may use that in the future ;)

 

Thade; I had a Locator beacon in the first Pod and basically everything DS'd near to it second turn (lucky rolls...maybe) I am thinking of dropping the Deathwind Launchers but they were the only things that constantly hit stuff and got ignored...

 

And it was 2 seperate matches that I played. But as I said, the same thing happened both times, maybe I was out manovoured?

 

Thanks again

Chaplain Hiltraud

I have never had an ork player wipe the board of me by shooting. I think he was taking you for a ride too. Some people that you "play a game" with, make it where you have to be on the ball to make sure they are not trying to cheat you. Like a guy at my LGS is really bad at making a list right but for some reason doesn't read the Codex rules and then makes ;) up as he is going along. He was telling me that an Ork with a power claw hits in Int order because they are so big the claw doesn't slow them down.......see my point.

[thade]

vs Orks and vs Marines are very different ball games. You have superior mobility with all those jump packs, so pick your fights and focus. Engage only one to two units at a time (no matter how many you have to choose from in range) and cull that herd. It's especially important against Orks, who will quickly overwhelm you if you don't focus units down below their Fearless threshold. When I say focus, I mean poor all of your shooting into one or two units. Shoot one unit until you're confident you can charge in and eat them (vs Orks) or eat them in the following Assault phase (vs Marines) so you can charge in again on your turn. (It's ideal to use that "two-assault phase tactic" at all times, but very dangerous against Orks who can Waaagh!, Fleet, and bum rush you if you're locked down.)

 

Stack up with more FNP for yourself. ;) Bring two or even three Sanguinary Priests. Other than JPs, I don't recommend giving them upgrades: they are expensive as it is and only have 1w a piece.

 

Ork shooting can be very good (they suck at it but there is so much of it)...so don't under-estimate that. Hopefully the rules quandaries/arguments are the least of your troubles. It's that kind of stuff that can ruin your taste for the game. :( Hang in there, resolve those small rules issues, and keep trying!

[Rob_Loken]

Yeah sorry forgot about daemons. It's just I've never come across anything that would need to take an invun and still take fnp.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

Elric the Silvercoat; That Claw thing sounds familiar...as it almost happened luckily he said "basically powerfist rules" and didn't argue about that :(

 

Thade: Thanks again, I had some very unlucky dice rolls (I put it down to me using chaos arms/weaponary and not blessing them properly before the game..) none of my melta weaponary hit...ever and bolt pistols hate me.

And the Orks waaaagh'd and demolished me, I wasn't ready for it, I thought I was far enough away but had 2 squads of orks v 1 squad for the majority of my units.

The Big Mek was what smashed me with shooting.

I ran the Captain and Sang.Priest with my CC assault squad (the one with flamers) and they were supposed to be my killy-death unit, they DS'd perfectly, I kept them in cover, they charged the enemies HQ (both games) and killed a few but then got destroyed, I really thought they'd hold up.

And the other squad who were supposed to be used as tankbusters failed to make any shot count ever and then generally got assaulted by whatever they were shooting at..both times I DS'd them at the rear armour of a tank, they came in perfectly but did nothing other than make some noise, stand there and get killed...

The DC dread was my biggest let down.

 

Maybe a Stormraven would be a better choice instead of the pods?

 

[After re-reading this I realise that I was very unfocused and sort of went for whatever was closest with whatever...]

 

Chaplain Hiltraud

[AustonT]

Apologize for my brevity I'm not trying to be a jerk my iPhone just makes typing difficult.

For your list:

ML on droppods=no.

In the assault squad with meltas ditch the IP, you already have two meltas with twice the range. If they don't work assault.

Is that a plasma pistol in your DC? Stop that. It's an assault unit, plus PP are too expensive for what they are.

Pretty sure SGTs cannot take dual LC, even if they can too many points for a one wound model. Stick to single.

I've tried AC RBs before too many points for too little armor. Stick to HB or HF RBs and use all the point saving above for a Baal if you want ACs to back up your dudes.

I feel like part of your issue is a lot of points in places that could be used elsewhere; my opinion however doesn't matter IF THEY WORK for you. Part of your problem is that intentionally or through ignorance your opponents are cheating you...hard.

Probably think about taking an honor guard for the extra bodies and sang priest. If you do: Blood Champion is the only upgrade you need. JP or Mech they are worth it.

Get a Baal instead of ACRB

Ditch the stuff suggested above and see how many points you are sitting at. Ideally in your list another 10 man JRAS with Meltas would be great.

[Makkeru]

Remember that Relentless will let your DC use rapid fire and assault.

[Brother Nathan]

personally id swap that captain out for a reclusiarch. the rerolls to wound vs the rerolls to hit for the recluse and the rest of the unit, i know what i find more effective... i can understand if you want a captain for fluff etc but really he dosent add anything you arnt better getting from somewhere else. you could even try using a normal recluse and sticking him in the death co unit and then also adding a libarian too, using sheild to add some much needed survivability to your deepstriking squads and unlease rage to make up for the combat ability loss. in my last game i managed to position my libarians and sanuary priests units so that their respectie bubbles over lapped and made them so much harder for my opponent to remove. which is what i needed as both squads had deepstruck and were trying to surround and overwhelm a sisters squad which with the combined abilitys they did with ease to be honest...

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Librarian, jump pack, blood lance and unleash rage.

 

2 x 10 Assault Marines, 2 x meltagun, power fist

 

2 x Sanguinary Priest, jump packs

 

Chaplain (no power fist, he's an independent character)

 

9 Death Company, bolters, 2 x power fists Rhino (they pay for relentless, might as well use it)

 

5 Assault Marines, meltagun, Razorback, twin-plasma/lascannon (why give the sergeant a thunder hammer? They're there to sit on your home objective and shoot things)

 

Death Company Dreadnaught, drop pod (throw him in as a distraction, expect him to die)

[Leonaides]

Also - and this is a surprisingly hard idea for some people to get theri heads round - dont use deep strike/Descent of Angels if it doesnt actually benefit you!

 

Against the Orks, you could be in combat in turn 2 (so a turn faster), have total reliability of wehre they turn up and can move to, and will have amuch easier time making sure you ar eth eone doing the charging, instead of being charged. By Deep striking you're trading one, or two (if he goes first) rounds of long range ork shooting, for the loss of the charge on an army that relies almost totally on getting the charge - you come off so much worse there that its not funny. You say you've not played very much at all - my advice is forget about DoA (apart from if you happen to take a vanguard veteran unit) and stick to learnign how to manouvre round a board from the go, not leaving it all up to chance on turn 2 deep strikes...

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

@AustonT: I appreciate the brevity (I didn't know what that word meant untill today lol) and your comments were helpful, I'm putting together another list and will post it here shortly, you (and a few others) are completely right about the ACRB - it didn't even shoot once! I like the idea of a cheap HG to go with my captain and I will drop some wasted points, I thought I just used the squads wrong but you made me realsie that it was the layout of the squads that were wrong...thanks again brother. [oh and my SP only has 1 LC, don't know if it's worth it as he didn't use it but fluff reasons and coolness factor, it's there.)

 

@Makkeru:Relentless is one of my favourite rules :D

 

@Brother nathan: I'm going to stick with the Captain+Chaplain, fluff reasons and I really want to try the Captain out again, not only have I made a cool model but he hardly made it into assault and I want to see what he can do. I will give some thought to a Libby with JP. thanks.

 

@Freman Bloodglaive: Thankyou for the list, I will incoperate some of that into my next list...

 

@Leonaides: It never crossed my mind not to use DoA, I assumed that a BA list is better to use as a full DS army - Next game I will be on the board with everything especially when I face those blasted Orks. I definately need to work on manovouring around the board and not over exposing my squads to being shot with short range weaponary and then being charged, I found that every game I've played at least 1 (or 2) squads has died due just to shooting from orks and the other marines!! So thankyou for helping me remember that the rule doesn't say 'BA lists always have to DS' :)

 

Thanks to everyone again,

Chaplain Hiltraud

(Yours in Honour, Faith and Blood)

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, players can be really manipulative. I remember the first time my dad went to do gaming like that. I had gone with him to watch, and sometimes he would let me roll the dice, considered it lucky. (this was when I was younger).

 

He got shammed by all three players. The first one was a Chaos one, who had given him advice to set him up for failure (he never listened again). The second one had manipulated him in a way that I don't really remember, mainly because the third one is the brightest blast in the dark. The Third one! He rolled his rerolls with his normal rolls, and picked which ones were the best. And not only that, but he rolled all of his shots (from differant weapons) at the same time as well, so he could pick which ones were most powerful.

My dad caught on to what was happening, but did not want ot create a scene (especially in front of me), so he let it happen, and told me when we left to make sure I don't treat players, especially new ones, like that. He also never went back to another game. (Though he still does play with his friends).

[AustonT]

It seems more and more people play 40k to win, even in pick up games. I understand it's a game and the point is in fact to win, but this is a game AND a hobby it is meant to be enjoyed. My friends and I figured out that a player who frequented our store had blatantly cheated in three tournaments in a row. With three separate armies. We told the store owner our suspicions and at the next store tourney everyones list was checked. Sure as shooting that guys list was over by almost 400pts in a 1500pt game. He didn't get banned from the store or anything, but he was politely asked to leave that day and pretty much from then on a ref stayed at his table for every game that year. Talk about persona non grata. It spawned a rule that my buddies and I use: suffer not the douche to play. We may sit around and debate fluff and rules to the point of physical violence, but getting your heartrate up over a pick up game. I'll pack my stuff up and go. That's pretty extreme though. I think the OP may have found the exception rather than the rule in his gaming community, I hope.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

@AustonT: I hear what you're saying! It's supposed to be a FUN hobby and a FUN game to play! Not everything is about winning!! ;)

The thing about these guys is that they say that as well and they are the people who run and organise the club (they are the President and VP) so I am going to bring up all the rule points as mentioned above but I have to do it with tact, if I don't, I may be excommunicate and there isn't another club for 100miles...

 

Anyways, I've got a game coming up in 2 weeks time, I'm going to go over everything with the aforementioned people before we play and see what happens, I will have the rulebook and codex handy and I intend on being relatively firm about all of this...

 

Thankyou for all of your help, I appriciate all the support greatly.

 

***

 

I have also posted my list in the BA Army List Section

 

 

 

Yours in Honour, Faith and Blood,

Chaplain Hiltraud

[JamesI]

Keep discussion of the list to the army list thread, thanks.

[Chaplain Hiltraud]

Sorry about that, JamesI I thought that it was ok due to the topic...

 

Anyways, my Army list can be found HERE ;)

 

Cheers,

Chaplain Hiltraud

[Venerable Jazzman]

Suffer not the douche to play

Sigged