II Legion & XI Legion

[Olis]

Fair enough.

 

Anyhoo, back (roughly) on topic - I'd love to see a II or XI legion 'survivor' pop up briefly, just to get us frothing again. :)

[A_POINTED_STICK]

Names?

 

I like the "Solar Lions" for Legion II and I think this sketch happens to coincide with that.

 

http://noldofinve.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48#/d1qmqln

 

Legio XI should be the "Silver Stags" and again she manages to capture roughly what I'd been thinking.

 

http://noldofinve.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48#/d1wzxqt

 

The Solar Lions were led by a brash primarch who got himself and his legion wiped out in a suitable manner, like hunting void whales or lost to the warp (rather than lost in it).

The Silver Stags were led by a rather secretive primarch who started playing with the warp, went rogue (perhaps after attacking the Death Guard?) and got hunted down and killed by Russ which made Russ and Mortarion justifiably "Off with his head" about Magnus at the Summit on Nikea (calling it the council of Nikea is silly, that was something which actually happened...) Russ clearly couldn't just have a "Gut feeling" on the subject of sorcery, since his own legion was doing just that with it's runepriests. More it was his fear he'd have to kill Magnus because he'd seen what had happened to the XI firsthand and didn't want to repeat it on the Thousand Sons who I'm sure he knew were at the time still steadfast loyal good guys; he just didn't do favors for potential traitors.

 

Yeah...

[Pulse]

Yeah...

Said it all for me. :devil:

[Captian Xavier]

Just a thought... Could one of the un-named legions be the Custodian Guard? I mean i know they arent anywhere near as strong as a legion in man power and they are the Emperors bodygaurd but they could be a a very small legion in themsleves.

 

It was just a thought, never know... Unless of course you do know then erm well done :(

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

No, probably not. Fluff states that all 20 Primarchs were found and participated in the Crusade, so the Custodians couldn't since they don't have a Primarch's geneseed.

[Captian Xavier]

Didnt they have the Emperors gene seed? So they could be his personal legion... but i get what your saying, no real primarch no real legion :/

[Drac0]

Didnt they have the Emperors gene seed? So they could be his personal legion... but i get what your saying, no real primarch no real legion :/

 

IIRC, on the Book the First Heretic, the Custodes are labelled as "genetic waste" as they were created by mixing lots of genetic material (Primarchs, marines, Emperor)

 

Kinda like the powerpuff girls sugar, spice, and everything nice... :D

[Perrin]

None of the Legions are Aztec/Mayan/Jungle based so that could be an idea, maybe they were excommunicated because their culture involved human sacrifice and was borderline chaos.

[Coryphaus 101]

In either the 3rd Ed Space Marine codex or on Warhammer Wiki it mentions a legion being utterly destroyed and expunged from the records for committing an unspeakable act. My theory for other one is that they were maytrs and sacrificed themselves to protect the Emperor from something. On the other hand in False Gods when Horus is walking past the 11th Primarch's tank he looks at it and feels all the untapped glories that will never be.

[Jareddm]

I don't know if this site is commonly known but I feel it's an extremely useful tool in extrapolating information about the missinging primarchs. It ties each of the primarchs to one of the Major Arcana of the tarot, and even uses the remaining Arcana to guess at the personalities and relationships the missing primarchs may have had with the other primarchs.

 

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

 

Before anyone starts, I know this is fan-made and means absolutely nothing, but for what it's worth, the personalities and relationships of the known primarchs are exceedingly accurate and backed by almost every known meeting of two primarchs.

 

The extrapolations for the missing primarchs even matches what little we do know of them. That Lorgar was very close with one of them and was quite devestated by their loss. This is shown in the Heirophant-High Priestess relationship.

 

For what it's worth, it describes one as being even more in tune with the warp than Magnus, not so much learning and controlling the warp, but existing as a part of it. He was extremely reserved and difficult to talk with. Perhaps this primarch lost control of his power and fell to the madness and mutation of the warp (though not to chaos)? Apparently Sanguinus had some deep insight into why this primarch was the way he was, with a hint that it might be due to a common connection.

 

The other is described as almost laid back, an optimist and fantastic speaker, but at the same time over-confident and naive. The relationships describe him as a party buddy to Russ, but more willing to let things happen than to take them seriously. An interesting connection is with Curze, that the confidence of the lost primarch would be able to bring out the best in Curze.

 

Overall, despite what people may say about fan theories, these hold up rather well under scrutiny.

[Commander S. Caesare]

Just a thought... Could one of the un-named legions be the Custodian Guard? I mean i know they arent anywhere near as strong as a legion in man power and they are the Emperors bodygaurd but they could be a a very small legion in themsleves.

 

It was just a thought, never know... Unless of course you do know then erm well done ;)

 

From what I read, the Custodians are not even Space Marines. They're larger, possess a different physiology, and have no gene-seed.

 

 

Back on the thread, I heard that one of the Legions had committed a great act of terrible greatness, thus leading to its excommunication. As for the other, no idea on what happen to their outcome, though the Ultramarines did gain a enlargement in its primary forces.

 

I hope one of the Legions was like a covert-ops based outlook. Maybe they favor sabotage and long-range weaponry. A Spec-ops team on guerilla warfare? Very cool, in my opinion. Camouflage armor. Camo-cloaks. Sniper Bolters (that'll be the day). Superior Deepstrike rules.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Hey, guys.

 

So far, I hear there are 2 missing Legions. Could those Legions somewhere be out there, like what Rogal Dorn said at the tower?

 

Since each Legion is based upon some ancient empire in real life (Ultramarines=Greek, White Scars=Khan's), the one I don't see mentioned is a Catholic/Roman Empire.

 

I think I have an idea what one of these Legions would be, but I'm not entirely sure how they would be originated.

 

The Heralds of the Emperor? Like the Roman choirs of Caesar? I like the name for the II Legion.

Dark Angels - English/British Dark Age knights.

The Emperor's Children - Phoenician

Iron Warriors - Dunno...

White Scars - primarily Mongolia (also Japan/China)

Space Wolves - Vikings

Imperial Fists - Post-Roman Empire (Holy Roman/Carolingian/Ottoman Empire), and also Eskimos...

Night Lords - Dunno...

Blood Angels - Italian Renaissance Catholic Church

Iron Hands - Dunno...

World Eaters - Akkadian Empire maybe?????

Ultramarines - Ancient Greece, Sparta, Athens, the Roman Republic/Empire

Death Guard - Dunno...

Thousand Sons - primarily Ancient Egyptian and Persian empires.

Luna Wolves - Proto-Roman. Like the initial tribes settling the settlement founded by the wolf-brother Romulus, son of Ares.

Word Bearers - The Vatican

Salamanders - Maori (makes the most sense to me)

Raven Guard - 1800's eastern USA (Edgar Allen Poe's time and place)

Alpha Legion - Uh......

[Coryphaus 101]

Alpha Legion are Soviet Russia during the Cold War.

[Perrin]

I think some Legions are based on ideas rather than civilisations.

Alpha Legion = Covert Ops, MI5/CIA/SAS etc

Death Guard = Inevitable death

Night Lords = Fear and military scare tactics

 

I've thought of a longer explanation for some of these, and for the Iron Warriors but i'm not sure they'd make much sense so won't bother writing them.

[Dinks]

I would base the Alpha Legion on organisations like the CIA, MI5/MI6, Mossad, FSB - all mixed in with Special Forces.

 

The Alpha Legion tend to work in small cells, controlled by probably no more than five Astartes, for an average operation, with the rest of the numbers filled with human recruits. They specialise in intelligence gathering and small precise strikes aimed at critical areas on a planet they are based on.

 

 

I think some Legions are based on ideas rather than civilisations.

Alpha Legion = Covert Ops, MI5/CIA/SAS etc

 

I think these both replies best sum up the Alpha Legion.

[Grotsmasha]

Although this does nothing to describe who the missing Legions and Primarchs are, towards the end of the Battle of the Fang novel, a Wolf Priest confirms that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were not the first legion the Wolves were sent to purge.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Jareddm]

Although this does nothing to describe who the missing Legions and Primarchs are, towards the end of the Battle of the Fang novel, a Wolf Priest confirms that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were not the first legion the Wolves were sent to purge.

 

We already knew this from The First Heretic.

 

The Heralds of the Emperor?

 

The Word Bearers were already originally called The Imperial Heralds before Lorgar took command of them.

 

 

I think it's important to understand the difference between personifying a Legion and personifying a Primarch. The two are not related. The Legion tends to be based more on whatever type of homeworld they recruited from. The Primarch is a lot more complicated. For example, Mortarion is a lot more than just death. Angron is more than just being angry.

[Grotsmasha]

Although this does nothing to describe who the missing Legions and Primarchs are, towards the end of the Battle of the Fang novel, a Wolf Priest confirms that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were not the first legion the Wolves were sent to purge.

 

We already knew this from The First Heretic.

 

The Heralds of the Emperor?

 

The Word Bearers were already originally called The Imperial Heralds before Lorgar took command of them.

 

 

I think it's important to understand the difference between personifying a Legion and personifying a Primarch. The two are not related. The Legion tends to be based more on whatever type of homeworld they recruited from. The Primarch is a lot more complicated. For example, Mortarion is a lot more than just death. Angron is more than just being angry.

 

It is hinted at in The First Heretic, in Battle for the Fang there is no hints, it is spoken as fact.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[The Emperor's Champion]

All of this is IIRC:

When A D-B discussed it with us (the Ultramarines subforum guys), because we were going nuts with the possibilities and discussing the hell out of it, he said that it was unlikely that the fate of the Lost Legions would ever be revealed.

He said GW didn't have an answer as to what happened to them either.

He said the BL authors weren't allowed to go off and write it for themselves, but they had the freedom to work within the unknown and write in the form of rumors and speculation.

He said that that's basically all this boiled down to. It was an idea he thought was really interesting and cool, and it was just something he came up with that he decided to throw into his book.

 

So, basically, we can assume it's a possibility, but not really any more so than any other plausible ideas.

The facts we have:

he Ultramarines Legion was HUGE

two Legions vanished from existence and record

it's said the Lost Legions disappeared at roughly the same time that the Ultramarines Legion experienced a growth in size

the Ultramarines Legion's size was due to them taking less casualties, recruiting faster, and being better supplied than any other Legion

 

 

The idea that a disbanded Legion or two might have been subsumed into a Legion that was already rapidly expanding in order to obscure their fate seems pretty plausible, but it doesn't rule out any other possibilities either.

They could just as easily all be locked up in a stasis dungeon deep inside Terra, or they could've all been executed, or they could've gotten sucked into the Warp, or they could've declared themselves to be pacifists and refused to fight, or etc etc etc etc....

 

 

 

 

For my money, I like the idea and have added it into my general stance on the Lost Legions -

I accept Primarch Rubinek and the Iron Hearts from Hell In A Bottle as one of the Lost Primarchs and his Lost Legion (great names that fit in nicely among the existing Primarchs and Legions, and recent reprints of the story have changed "Commander Rubinek" to/back to "Primarch Rubinek").

I accept Andy Chambers' Valedictors Legion (The Overfiend doesn't even work for GW anymore, but I'd accept him retconning stuff left and right and consider it official. Plus, again, it's a great name for a Legion and they have a good Legion symbol too.)

I still go by the theory that Sigmar is the other Lost Primarch. (The tale of Sigmar fits in almost perfectly with the tales of the Primarchs, because that's how he was written back when they actively wrote WHFB as being a planet inside of WH40k)

 

So, logically, this would mean Sigmar is the Primarich of the Valedictors Legion, which actually fits pretty well.

 

Then, if you accept the idea that the Ultramarines Legion contained the Iron Hearts and Valedictors among the actual Ultramarines, you can go through the Primogenitor Chapters and try and figure out who doesn't fit.

To quote myself from the first time we were discussing this stuff:

Consider the way that Mars tests geneseed; we know next to nothing about it beyond that they test for purity and flaws.

It's entirely possible (AFAIK) that the Ultramarines Legion WAS made up of Ultramarines, "Valedictors", and "Iron Hearts", but that Mars simply can't tell them apart. Perhaps the "Valedictors" and "Iron Hearts" both have flawless sets of working implants and no impurities that they can quantify, and therefore, as far as they can tell, it is just Ultramarines geneseed.

 

Perhaps any flaws in the geneseed manifest as they do in other Chapters whose flaws the AdMech can't identify genetically, such as the Dark Angels (slightly prone to Chaos), or the Iron Hands (body dysmorphia), or the Iron Warriors (Paranoid personality disorder), etc....

 

 

 

Certainly there are Ultramarines Legion Successors that appear to be totally removed from the norm for some reason.

The Doom Eagles and Mortifactors, for example, could both be Chapters with the geneseed of the same lost Primarch. Their obsessions with death seem like they could be manifestations of the same specific flaw. If I were to guess, solely based on the names we "know", which of the Lost Legions these traits would come from, I'd guess the Valedictors.

A Legion named after valediction (a farewell)....Chapters obsessed with death and the idea that they are already dead.... Seems to me that whatever tendency earned the Valedictors their Legion name may have gotten a bit...out of control...over the course of 10,000 years.

 

Also based simply on the name, the "Iron Hearts" don't strike me as the Legion to end up having a bunch of death obsessed lunatics in their family tree. I could see The "Iron Hearts" being the source for particularly stalwart Chapters like the Howling Griffons, for example, who take great pride in their oaths and unrelenting commitment to fulfilling each one.

 

Perhaps this might also be part of the riddle of the Relictors. Perhaps it wasn't actually Dark Angels and Ultramarines geneseed used to create them, but rather Dark Angel and "Valedictor" geneseed. In this theory, that would be a dangerous combination, despite being apparently pure. The Dark Angels' minor tendency towards Chaos balanced not by nearly incorruptible Ultramarines geneseed, but rather complimented by the geneseed of a Legion who has tendency towards morbid obsessions. So maybe, on balance, they ended up perched on the edge of normal until they were nudged over (by a daemon sword) and ended up morbidly obsessed with Chaos relics, tho without actually being corrupted....

 

 

And was it "fully half" of the Legions that fell to Chaos, or was it "fully half" of the Primarchs (I forget)?

Either way, I'd go ahead and guess that "Sigmar" (who will stand in here for the "Valedictor" Primarch) was the one who fell to Chaos. Perhaps the tendencies that earned his Legion their name had made him a prime target for the Dark Gods before they ever whispered to Kor Phaeron. Perhaps he was the the prototype for the path that half his brothers would follow. Perhaps Chaos twisted the natural inclinations of "Sigmar" from that which earned the "Valedictors" their name until they became the tendencies that now define the Mortifactors. To The Emperor, a death/doom obsessed cannibal Primarch leading his Legion towards doing the same could easily be a reason to remove him from command and even from Imperial records as a whole, especially if he found that the Chaos Gods had something to do with it, yes?

 

Therefore I'd have to assume that the infant Primarch XI referred to as "still innocent, still pure" would have to be the future "Sigmar", in keeping with this line of speculation, which leaves "Rubinek" as Primarch II who may be the one referred to as having a "shameful future". Apparently something bad enough to have him expunged alongside "Sigmar"....

 

Perhaps the government of a whole planetary mini-empire (like Ultramar) of newly rediscovered human worlds insulted The Emperor, and "Rubinek" had his Legion swear to destroy them.....and then did (working with the Howling Griffons are "Iron Hearts" theory here, and adding the "what if they went too far?" template to it). Would the brutal and needless annihilation of a whole empire of humans due to the words of a few of their leaders be enough in the days of the Great Crusade for The Emperor to remove one of his Primarchs from command and history?

 

 

Both of those scenarios seem like they'd fit, and fit together, to me.

I've always wondered what in the world two Primarchs/Legions could do that would be so bad that they were wiped from Imperial records entirely, but not so bad that everyone knows about it(in some sense), as is the case with the Traitor Legions and the Heresy.

If the Legions themselves were only expunged in record while the Marines themselves were allowed to live on as Ultramarines, then I only have to work out what their Primarchs did.

In the days when The Emperor walked the stars with his sons, and the message of the Imperium was one of science, unity, reunited family, and diplomacy with potential allies, I can see Primarchs who commit mass slaughter of humans in His name, or death/doom worship and cannibalism, as being the darkest mark against his great works that The Emperor could imagine happening. I can imagine The Emperor sequestering two of his sons for that, sorting out and doing away with whichever of their Marines happily agreed with them, while still regarding many of their Marines as just loyally following orders and not being in need of a fate worse than having their names and honors stripped from history.

 

In this way it is possible that one could say that most of the "Valedictors" were beginning to be changed by Chaos without going so far as being "tainted", and some of the Legion had "fallen" when they willingly followed "Sigmar's" example. That, in a sense, fulfills the "fully half" turning to Chaos quote whether it refers to just Primarchs or the Legions too, while still allowing the "pure" Marines to continue their existence as loyal "Ultramarines".

 

 

I love when I get to snowball new information into a giant mess of new and very possible/somewhat possible conspiracy theories.

[2000AD]

Seems like one of them should be a Mayan/Aztec or similar jungle based civilization....

 

Something involving human sacrifice to gods would definitely incur the Emperors wrath....

[Yogi]

Thank god they are still missing. The ideas presented here do not impress me. Which is the whole point of them missing. To let them be your own theory.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Seems like one of them should be a Mayan/Aztec or similar jungle based civilization....

 

Something involving human sacrifice to gods would definitely incur the Emperors wrath....

Could be!

Have you ever seen Philip Sibbering's Aztec style Rainbow Warriors? They're pretty awesome.

 

But yea, those were my thoughts back when the idea of the Lost Legions being absorbed by the Ultramarines first cropped up. But when I was thinking about it it again I kinda got the impression that the Iron Hearts would be the human sacrifice guys that the Mortifactors and such actually descend from. And with the whole Aztec thing of carving out hearts and human sacrifice and stuff it makes an awesome ancestor to the Aztec interpretation of the Rainbow Warriors.

And ATM it also seems to me that the "knight" type Chapters would probably be the ones with Sigmar as their Primarch.... So the Howling Griffons and what not being sons of Sigmar...sounds good. The only problem then is that it implies Sigmar fell to Chaos if Rubinek is the one who went weird, I guess???

[Jareddm]

But yea, those were my thoughts back when the idea of the Lost Legions being absorbed by the Ultramarines first cropped up. But when I was thinking about it it again I kinda got the impression that the Iron Hearts would be the human sacrifice guys that the Mortifactors and such actually descend from. And with the whole Aztec thing of carving out hearts and human sacrifice and stuff it makes an awesome ancestor to the Aztec interpretation of the Rainbow Warriors.

And ATM it also seems to me that the "knight" type Chapters would probably be the ones with Sigmar as their Primarch.... So the Howling Griffons and what not being sons of Sigmar...sounds good. The only problem then is that it implies Sigmar fell to Chaos if Rubinek is the one who went weird, I guess???

 

Wouldn't a chapter have to be 2nd founding in order to actually contain a marine of the lost legions? My understanding is that the 2nd founding chapters were made simply by dividing up the legions, that for the most part, probably no new marines were made. If this is the case, how could a later founding chapter contain marines from the lost legion unless the chapter was 2nd founding and the theory of the Ultramarine absorption was true? Unless you're implying that lost legion geneseed was being used in later foundings?

[Perrin]

All of this is IIRC:

When A D-B discussed it with us (the Ultramarines subforum guys), because we were going nuts with the possibilities and discussing the hell out of it, he said that it was unlikely that the fate of the Lost Legions would ever be revealed.

He said GW didn't have an answer as to what happened to them either.

He said the BL authors weren't allowed to go off and write it for themselves, but they had the freedom to work within the unknown and write in the form of rumors and speculation.

He said that that's basically all this boiled down to. It was an idea he thought was really interesting and cool, and it was just something he came up with that he decided to throw into his book.

 

So, basically, we can assume it's a possibility, but not really any more so than any other plausible ideas.

The facts we have:

he Ultramarines Legion was HUGE

two Legions vanished from existence and record

it's said the Lost Legions disappeared at roughly the same time that the Ultramarines Legion experienced a growth in size

the Ultramarines Legion's size was due to them taking less casualties, recruiting faster, and being better supplied than any other Legion

 

 

The idea that a disbanded Legion or two might have been subsumed into a Legion that was already rapidly expanding in order to obscure their fate seems pretty plausible, but it doesn't rule out any other possibilities either.

They could just as easily all be locked up in a stasis dungeon deep inside Terra, or they could've all been executed, or they could've gotten sucked into the Warp, or they could've declared themselves to be pacifists and refused to fight, or etc etc etc etc....

 

 

 

 

For my money, I like the idea and have added it into my general stance on the Lost Legions -

I accept Primarch Rubinek and the Iron Hearts from Hell In A Bottle as one of the Lost Primarchs and his Lost Legion (great names that fit in nicely among the existing Primarchs and Legions, and recent reprints of the story have changed "Commander Rubinek" to/back to "Primarch Rubinek").

I accept Andy Chambers' Valedictors Legion (The Overfiend doesn't even work for GW anymore, but I'd accept him retconning stuff left and right and consider it official. Plus, again, it's a great name for a Legion and they have a good Legion symbol too.)

I still go by the theory that Sigmar is the other Lost Primarch. (The tale of Sigmar fits in almost perfectly with the tales of the Primarchs, because that's how he was written back when they actively wrote WHFB as being a planet inside of WH40k)

 

So, logically, this would mean Sigmar is the Primarich of the Valedictors Legion, which actually fits pretty well.

 

Then, if you accept the idea that the Ultramarines Legion contained the Iron Hearts and Valedictors among the actual Ultramarines, you can go through the Primogenitor Chapters and try and figure out who doesn't fit.

To quote myself from the first time we were discussing this stuff:

Consider the way that Mars tests geneseed; we know next to nothing about it beyond that they test for purity and flaws.

It's entirely possible (AFAIK) that the Ultramarines Legion WAS made up of Ultramarines, "Valedictors", and "Iron Hearts", but that Mars simply can't tell them apart. Perhaps the "Valedictors" and "Iron Hearts" both have flawless sets of working implants and no impurities that they can quantify, and therefore, as far as they can tell, it is just Ultramarines geneseed.

 

Perhaps any flaws in the geneseed manifest as they do in other Chapters whose flaws the AdMech can't identify genetically, such as the Dark Angels (slightly prone to Chaos), or the Iron Hands (body dysmorphia), or the Iron Warriors (Paranoid personality disorder), etc....

 

 

 

Certainly there are Ultramarines Legion Successors that appear to be totally removed from the norm for some reason.

The Doom Eagles and Mortifactors, for example, could both be Chapters with the geneseed of the same lost Primarch. Their obsessions with death seem like they could be manifestations of the same specific flaw. If I were to guess, solely based on the names we "know", which of the Lost Legions these traits would come from, I'd guess the Valedictors.

A Legion named after valediction (a farewell)....Chapters obsessed with death and the idea that they are already dead.... Seems to me that whatever tendency earned the Valedictors their Legion name may have gotten a bit...out of control...over the course of 10,000 years.

 

Also based simply on the name, the "Iron Hearts" don't strike me as the Legion to end up having a bunch of death obsessed lunatics in their family tree. I could see The "Iron Hearts" being the source for particularly stalwart Chapters like the Howling Griffons, for example, who take great pride in their oaths and unrelenting commitment to fulfilling each one.

 

Perhaps this might also be part of the riddle of the Relictors. Perhaps it wasn't actually Dark Angels and Ultramarines geneseed used to create them, but rather Dark Angel and "Valedictor" geneseed. In this theory, that would be a dangerous combination, despite being apparently pure. The Dark Angels' minor tendency towards Chaos balanced not by nearly incorruptible Ultramarines geneseed, but rather complimented by the geneseed of a Legion who has tendency towards morbid obsessions. So maybe, on balance, they ended up perched on the edge of normal until they were nudged over (by a daemon sword) and ended up morbidly obsessed with Chaos relics, tho without actually being corrupted....

 

 

And was it "fully half" of the Legions that fell to Chaos, or was it "fully half" of the Primarchs (I forget)?

Either way, I'd go ahead and guess that "Sigmar" (who will stand in here for the "Valedictor" Primarch) was the one who fell to Chaos. Perhaps the tendencies that earned his Legion their name had made him a prime target for the Dark Gods before they ever whispered to Kor Phaeron. Perhaps he was the the prototype for the path that half his brothers would follow. Perhaps Chaos twisted the natural inclinations of "Sigmar" from that which earned the "Valedictors" their name until they became the tendencies that now define the Mortifactors. To The Emperor, a death/doom obsessed cannibal Primarch leading his Legion towards doing the same could easily be a reason to remove him from command and even from Imperial records as a whole, especially if he found that the Chaos Gods had something to do with it, yes?

 

Therefore I'd have to assume that the infant Primarch XI referred to as "still innocent, still pure" would have to be the future "Sigmar", in keeping with this line of speculation, which leaves "Rubinek" as Primarch II who may be the one referred to as having a "shameful future". Apparently something bad enough to have him expunged alongside "Sigmar"....

 

Perhaps the government of a whole planetary mini-empire (like Ultramar) of newly rediscovered human worlds insulted The Emperor, and "Rubinek" had his Legion swear to destroy them.....and then did (working with the Howling Griffons are "Iron Hearts" theory here, and adding the "what if they went too far?" template to it). Would the brutal and needless annihilation of a whole empire of humans due to the words of a few of their leaders be enough in the days of the Great Crusade for The Emperor to remove one of his Primarchs from command and history?

 

 

Both of those scenarios seem like they'd fit, and fit together, to me.

I've always wondered what in the world two Primarchs/Legions could do that would be so bad that they were wiped from Imperial records entirely, but not so bad that everyone knows about it(in some sense), as is the case with the Traitor Legions and the Heresy.

If the Legions themselves were only expunged in record while the Marines themselves were allowed to live on as Ultramarines, then I only have to work out what their Primarchs did.

In the days when The Emperor walked the stars with his sons, and the message of the Imperium was one of science, unity, reunited family, and diplomacy with potential allies, I can see Primarchs who commit mass slaughter of humans in His name, or death/doom worship and cannibalism, as being the darkest mark against his great works that The Emperor could imagine happening. I can imagine The Emperor sequestering two of his sons for that, sorting out and doing away with whichever of their Marines happily agreed with them, while still regarding many of their Marines as just loyally following orders and not being in need of a fate worse than having their names and honors stripped from history.

 

In this way it is possible that one could say that most of the "Valedictors" were beginning to be changed by Chaos without going so far as being "tainted", and some of the Legion had "fallen" when they willingly followed "Sigmar's" example. That, in a sense, fulfills the "fully half" turning to Chaos quote whether it refers to just Primarchs or the Legions too, while still allowing the "pure" Marines to continue their existence as loyal "Ultramarines".

 

 

I love when I get to snowball new information into a giant mess of new and very possible/somewhat possible conspiracy theories.

 

Good ideas but outdated, as you already know WHF isn't the same universe/dimension, and Graham McNeils Sigmar trilogy have made it impossible for Sigmar to be a Primarch. But at the end of the day the Legions are missing so people can make their own ideas about them so each to their own.

[BetweentheLines]

This topic has been discussed a few (understatement) on here but this is what I had tossed in last time back in April.

 

I find it very interesting, this idea about one of the Primarchs working with xenos. In Fulgrim, there was talk of incorporating The Laer into the Imperium because this would have been too challenging. Could it be that this has not been the first time the Imperium had taken in a Xenos Empire or maybe integrated a lost colony of man that had developed an empire that was open to Xenos? Maybe that is why some Primarchs are so bitter towards ALL xenos. I remember another poster had mentioned this before in the forums.

 

Perhaps this would have been the course of the 11th Primarch. Too damaged from Horus' vision of the capsules from the Chaos Gods to become greater than he tuned out to be so perhaps by happenstance, he landed in a world that was a part of such an open empire where man and xenos could work together. This Primarch would have been the guiding light but perhaps because of some perceived weakness or flaw was socially outcast by many of the other Primarchs. This would be "the purged" that was quoted from The First Heretic. Maybe this was the legion that the Space Wolves had to destroy or reduce.

 

I also find it interesting that throughout the Horus Heresy novels, twice is the 11th mentioned but never is the 2nd. This idea that one of them might have been a blank leads me to believe that the 2nd is the Blank. I can also see a major problem with this 2nd Legion advancing at the pace of the rest of the Expeditions precisely because of this ability. The navigators can't tap into the warp with these Blanks on the ship or have more difficulties doing so. Or maybe it's because (as other have speculated) of these abilities that they are kept in stasis somewhere as a backup. This could be "the forgotten" that was also from The First Heretic.

 

This was based off of the First Heretic where they referred to the missing legions as "the lost" and "the purged". The "rumor" about the Ultramarines absorbing the remnants of the two missing legions was just something that a couple of Word Bearers were joking about back and forth. ADB had confirmed that this was NOT a hint or cannon.

 

But to The Emperors Champion, your idea was great! I like a well thought out hypothesis and definitely enjoyed the read.

 

Also Jareddm had made mention of someone putting together the works where they had matched up Primarchs to the Tarot. I had read this awhile back and it's interesting to read about "The High Priestess" and "Fortune".

 

Apologist on Warseer did an amazing job with true scale pre-heresy Ultras but when he did Guilliman he also took this tarot into consideration and wrote a bit of fluff on it. Guilliman having a great relationship with these two Primarchs. "The High Priestess" for guildance and "Fortune" to get him to relax! Can you imagine Guilliman relaxing a bit? These two missing primarchs seem like they would have bridged many gaps between the others that would eventually end up on opposite sides.

 

I would bring this discussion further to ask all of you what you think would have happened to the course of the Imperium if these primarchs and missing legions (based on the Tarot link or other hypothesis) had survived in whole and had stayed "known"?