II Legion & XI Legion

[The Emperor's Champion]

But yea, those were my thoughts back when the idea of the Lost Legions being absorbed by the Ultramarines first cropped up. But when I was thinking about it it again I kinda got the impression that the Iron Hearts would be the human sacrifice guys that the Mortifactors and such actually descend from. And with the whole Aztec thing of carving out hearts and human sacrifice and stuff it makes an awesome ancestor to the Aztec interpretation of the Rainbow Warriors.

And ATM it also seems to me that the "knight" type Chapters would probably be the ones with Sigmar as their Primarch.... So the Howling Griffons and what not being sons of Sigmar...sounds good. The only problem then is that it implies Sigmar fell to Chaos if Rubinek is the one who went weird, I guess???

 

Wouldn't a chapter have to be 2nd founding in order to actually contain a marine of the lost legions? My understanding is that the 2nd founding chapters were made simply by dividing up the legions, that for the most part, probably no new marines were made. If this is the case, how could a later founding chapter contain marines from the lost legion unless the chapter was 2nd founding and the theory of the Ultramarine absorption was true? Unless you're implying that lost legion geneseed was being used in later foundings?

To contain one of the original Lost Legionnaires, yes, it would have to be 2nd Founding. For all we know, the Rainbow Warriors COULD be a 2nd Founding Chapter, since there appears to be no indications to the contrary. *shrug*

If the Ultramarines Chapter itself isn't aware of II and XI Legion geneseed within its ranks, then what's to stop them from sending geneseed samples to Mars?

Once on Mars, what's to stop the Adeptus Mechanicus from selecting one of those samples as the basis for a newly founded Chapter?

The II and XI Legion could live on...

[Cyrox]

I've seen countless threads on this, and we'll probably never know, which is why its so great to talk about and offer theories :D

 

My personal view, in light of events spoken of/referred to in BL novels, is this:

 

They have been referred to as 'The lost' and 'the purged'

 

* I think 'The Purged' did something that caused the Space Wolves to eradicate them. It was hinted in The First Heretic, and then stated as fact in The Battle of the Fang, that the Wolves had done it before.

 

* As for 'The Lost', I think the Emperor sent them though the Webay portal he created under the Imperial Palace. Just a theory though :)

[Unintentional Batman]

For me, Sigmar will always be one of them, no matter what GW/BL of today say. I think it can work with the idea that all Primarchs were found even - Sigmar was the one who "turned to chaos" (abandoned and "betrayed" Emps when he finally ascended into being a real Gawd) and thus his legion would be the purged one:

 

"Hey, Russ! Sigmar just made himself into a warpgod. Go kick asses of his sons, we need to bury this info Deep."

 

Old person is old :)

 

For the other, I go with the idea of roman lost legions and that being defeated is so shameful their record got erased.

[Perrin]

For me, Sigmar will always be one of them, no matter what GW/BL of today say. I think it can work with the idea that all Primarchs were found even - Sigmar was the one who "turned to chaos" (abandoned and "betrayed" Emps when he finally ascended into being a real Gawd) and thus his legion would be the purged one:

 

"Hey, Russ! Sigmar just made himself into a warpgod. Go kick asses of his sons, we need to bury this info Deep."

 

Old person is old :lol:

 

For the other, I go with the idea of roman lost legions and that being defeated is so shameful their record got erased.

 

No matter what GW/BL say? Alright then, Loken is a psyker and the Emperors true son, and the Tau Ethereals are actually very clever Squats in costumes. Obviously because of the height of the Tau its 2 Squats on top of each other per costume, otherwise they'd never pull off the disguise.

 

Thats sarcasm btw, but just as likely as Sigmar being a Primarch.

[Unintentional Batman]

*facepalm*

 

Yes. You see, it was something of a cool connection, possibility, back in the old days. That GW/BL has retconned the two universes to be (almost) completely separate since then is no matter to me. It's highly unlikely that GW/BL canon police will come bursting through my window and blackbagging me for using fluff that has been retconned. They have no say in my gaming garage. Just like I believe that Inquistion War trumps anything that is published later and contradicts it.

 

It is fiction. All stories are as tru...

 

*sound of glass breaking*

[Stelze]

Hey, I read through the thread now, and registered because I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

 

In A Thousand Sons, when Magnus and Mortarion met on Ullanor, Mortarion said this to Magnus:

 

 

“You have crossed a line, Magnus,” hissed Mortarion. “You

hold a snake by the tail and bargain with powers beyond your

understanding.”

“No power is beyond my understanding,” countered Magnus.

“You would do well to remember that.”

Mortarion laughed, the sound like mountains collapsing.

“I knew a being like you once before,” he said, “so sure in his

powers, so convinced of his superiority that he could not see his

doom until it was upon him. Like you, he wielded dark powers.

Our father made him pay with his life for such evil. Have a care

you do not suffer the same fate.”

 

 

That is the clearest information on what happened to one of the unknown primarchs we have yet.

I mean, it could very well be, that Mortarion meant something else entirely.

But I think it is clear he speaks of one of the Primarchs there.

[Legatus]

I think it is more likely that he is refering to the overlord of Barbarus, the world Mortarion was found on, who was struck down by the Emperor. If he had refered to one of the lost Primarchs he would probably not have been as vague in his reference, since Magnus would have known him as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

That was definitely Mortarions first 'father'.

[Jareddm]

Also Jareddm had made mention of someone putting together the works where they had matched up Primarchs to the Tarot. I had read this awhile back and it's interesting to read about "The High Priestess" and "Fortune".

 

Apologist on Warseer did an amazing job with true scale pre-heresy Ultras but when he did Guilliman he also took this tarot into consideration and wrote a bit of fluff on it. Guilliman having a great relationship with these two Primarchs. "The High Priestess" for guildance and "Fortune" to get him to relax! Can you imagine Guilliman relaxing a bit? These two missing primarchs seem like they would have bridged many gaps between the others that would eventually end up on opposite sides.

 

I would bring this discussion further to ask all of you what you think would have happened to the course of the Imperium if these primarchs and missing legions (based on the Tarot link or other hypothesis) had survived in whole and had stayed "known"?

 

Thanks for the plug, I wasn't familiar with the true scale pre-heresy project on warseer, I'll be sure to look that up.

 

I still feel that Konrad Curze would have been able to maintain both his sanity and his homeworld if he still had Fortune's levity and confidence to lend him aid.

 

The High Priestess, from the description given, may have been intended as the one to help the Emperor finish his webway project, with Magnus only acting as a poor substitute.

[Perrin]

*facepalm*

 

Yes. You see, it was something of a cool connection, possibility, back in the old days. That GW/BL has retconned the two universes to be (almost) completely separate since then is no matter to me. It's highly unlikely that GW/BL canon police will come bursting through my window and blackbagging me for using fluff that has been retconned. They have no say in my gaming garage. Just like I believe that Inquistion War trumps anything that is published later and contradicts it.

 

It is fiction. All stories are as tru...

 

*sound of glass breaking*

 

I didn't know what blackbagging was until one of my teachers said he was going to do it to someone then explained what it was to our blank faces

 

tbf there was recently (few years ago) a GW run WHF campaign (possibly the Albion one) that gave in-game artifacts to the armies taking part. I think the artifacts arrived through a portal, they were basically lightning claws and a bolter but the natives didnt know the proper names.