can khorne win without DPs and Oblits

[greatcrusade08]

howdy folks, my khorne based army is coming on very well, so much so i decided to ditch my ultramarine scouts for the next tournament and run with khorne instead.

 

however i dont want to fall into the same old trap that only lists using daemon princes and obliterators are competative and want to go a different direction.

my plan was to first use vindicators, but i fell asleep in the bath and had weird dreams, during which i came to the conclusion that defilers are slightly better 'all rounders' (i kid you not this actually happened), plus can have a twin las aswell as the big template.

i also want to use a couple of dual DCCW dreads with heavy flamers

 

what i wanted was to pick the brains of long time khorne users, if we disregard all "interwebz" nonsense about what the 'best' units are, what do you all find are good additions to a unique army list, stuff that works well that isnt spammed in every list out there..

please all opinions are welcome, personal experiences count for alot :lol:

 

since i want to include the units above, what are the opinions about going heavy armour, do you think a LR is worthy in a list like this or stick to rhinos?

[Liba terminatus]

Of course we can win without DP's and oblits I do it all the time ;)

 

Btw don't take a lascannon on the defiler as u cannot fire anything in addition to ordnance weapons

 

Land raiders are ok but the points need a change as it is too pricey for what you get when compared to a loyalist One. But they can work

 

Edit:spelling

[greatcrusade08]

Btw don't take a lascannon on the defiler as u cannot fire anything in addition to ordnance weapons

 

wow didnt know that.. kind makes you wonder whats the point in having secondary weapons

[Brother Nihm]

Btw don't take a lascannon on the defiler as u cannot fire anything in addition to ordnance weapons

 

wow didnt know that.. kind makes you wonder whats the point in having secondary weapons

To down Skimmers and transports more reliably (using the Autocannon).

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I like to keep the reaper though. It's better for popping vehicles than the battle cannon, gives you a second ranged weapon (cause that first Weapon Destryed is going to be the BC).

 

For the price of the Land Raider you could try upping a ten man to a twenty man squad. Run it almost like an Ork horde. Then ten man squads rush in in their rhinos while the "horde" follows killing anything that's left.

[PyronusSouria]

I've always liked hordes of lesser daemons. :lol: And possessed too, I always feel like they work well in a Khorne army. Everyone always gives them the Mark of Tzeentch, but when I played mine I always gave them Khorne instead.

[greatcrusade08]

hmm interesting, ill deffo keep the autocannon on the defilers.. the reason i mention the raider is to maximise the armour on the field, saturate with lots of tanks and walkers..

[Hellios]

hmm interesting, ill deffo keep the autocannon on the defilers.. the reason i mention the raider is to maximise the armour on the field, saturate with lots of tanks and walkers..

 

or being a khorne army a traditional build is put as many close combat weapons as you can on it... want to shoot? Pie plate away! Want close combat? scuttle scuttle it is with fleet! and you can't run and shoot anyway :'( Khorne players seem to like Chaozilla...

 

Anyway Oblits and DPs are not mandatory, no single unit is mandatory in the chaos codex! I guess it depends if you are going full khorne (World Eaters) or Khorne lite (lots of units with IoK) as well.

[greatcrusade08]

i use a homebrew CSM warband, although i use khorne rules, thats as far as it goes.. my theme is akin to khorne, but isnt khorne.

 

anyway that said, i think if you change the defilers heavy flamer for another DCCW it has attacks aplenty (4 base, 5 on charge IIRC), it pust it on par with the double DCCW dreadies, but can fire the lovely pie plates aswell.

 

im not sure whether to use the land raider or stick in another defiler, i dont want to spam, but a third would be brilliant.. either way the more armour i can put on the better, especially walkers, they dont fall down to meltabombs from alpha striking suicide squads

 

I think ill go with walker heavy and 3 solid squads of infantry with Khârn leading them, im still up in the air about how mnay walkers and the LR issue though..

should i post some lists here or link to the correct forum?

[crucial]

Good topic! Yeah just post some lists here if you want, the topic isn't soley about lists i supose. Got pictures too? The khorne forum needs more pictures!

 

Yeeeah I'm enjoying putting a couple of defilers together at the minute, they look right intimidating they do! I like how chaos can do a 'zilla list too with plenty of dreads.

 

So you will just be using standard CSM squads instead of 'zerkers then? I supose you'll save on the points and be able to pump out some rapid fire goodness when disembarking from your rhinos then. I always hate the way 'zerkers and rhinos gel together. These days i find getting a charge off with them is hard except when using a LR.

 

Thanks

[greatcrusade08]

Good topic! Yeah just post some lists here if you want, the topic isn't soley about lists i supose. Got pictures too? The khorne forum needs more pictures!

i will have some pics eventually, ive done a few conversions, just need to paint some

 

Yeeeah I'm enjoying putting a couple of defilers together at the minute, they look right intimidating they do! I like how chaos can do a 'zilla list too with plenty of dreads.

Yeah i keep hearing how chaos dreads are aweful, but with the dual DCCW they reduce the weakness of being crazed, plus it adds a little more fun into the game.

 

So you will just be using standard CSM squads instead of 'zerkers then? I supose you'll save on the points and be able to pump out some rapid fire goodness when disembarking from your rhinos then. I always hate the way 'zerkers and rhinos gel together. These days i find getting a charge off with them is hard except when using a LR.

At the moment im running quite a heavy infantry army with 3 squads of zerks, 2 CSM squads and a squad of raptors, for the planned tournament list ill stick with the berserkers and go 100% Khorne.

[greatcrusade08]

ive got two lists in mind at the moment, of course nothing is set in stone, so i will look at any other suggestions

 

LIST 1:

Khârn (165)

9 berserkers (249)

-2 plasma pistols

-PW champ

Land raider (235)

-extra armour

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

dreadnought (125)

-2 DCCW

-2 heavy flamers

-extra armour

 

dreadnought (125)

-2 DCCW

-2 heavy flamers

-extra armour

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

1745

 

LIST 2:

Khârn (165)

7 berserkers (212)

-PW champ

-rhino

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

dreadnought (125)

-2 DCCW

-2 heavy flamers

-extra armour

 

dreadnought (125)

-2 DCCW

-2 heavy flamers

-extra armour

 

dreadnought (125)

-2 DCCW

-2 heavy flamers

-extra armour

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

1748

 

edit: list 2 is a little spammy

[crucial]

Yeah the reaper autocannon is the best choice on the defilers. You gotta ask yourself 'is that extra DCCW attack gonna win me more games?' The autocannons benefits are just so many in so many gritty little situations, which is multiplied when taking 2 or 3.

 

How do you find your plasma pistols on the 'zerkers? They a good investment? They seem to give the 'zerkers some much needed punch when using rhinos.

 

I prefer the first list myself. Less spam! You leaving the dreads arms interchangable though? I've felt the sting of new codex editions and I've learnt from my mistakes lol, I betcha the dreads won't be going ape:cuss on a dice roll in the next 'dex.

[greatcrusade08]

How do you find your plasma pistols on the 'zerkers? They a good investment? They seem to give the 'zerkers some much needed punch when using rhinos.

 

i take them becuase zerkers are no longer the alpha assault units, GK with halberds are nasty, so i figure its worth the cost for the chance of killing one or two more pre assault (every little helps).

the big reason was like you said, in rhinos the two fire points mean 2 plasma shots on the turn before assault (and then on the turn we actually assault), i figure Deldar skimmers are prone to plasma which means hopefully we can force some emergency disembarking and chop up the squishy insides

[Razblood]

I'm doing an experiment at the mo running a Khorne army to BA rules, which involves: 30 man DC (Zerkers), 2 x 10 man assault squads w/Rhinos, 5 man Honour Guard, Dread and Gabe Seth (More Khorne than Khorne Flakes ;) ).

 

Tried running a ground-pounder zerker army and it was mauled by everything I threw it at :(.

 

I'm avoiding using any of the BA list's flashier gizmos, but I dont see why Khornate marines wouldn't super-charge their Rhinos at the first opportunity :(

[greatcrusade08]

yeah blood angels are pretty much khorne, even if they dont admit it to themselves...

 

does anyone have any opinions on the lists, which is preferred or are there other options?

please help ;)

[Hiro_Protagonist]

There's a problem in both lists. Dreads can only take one Heavy Flamer, not two. I'd used the exrta points to upgrade the champs weapon (in the Khârn squad) to a Powerfist, otherwise that squad's going to have some trouble with dreads I think.

 

I actually like the second list better I think. It is kind of spammy, but it's also kind of Khorny! (yes, pun intended) :)

 

I've never seen that many walkers fielded for chaos before and I think it would look cool on the field. It's a nice change from the standard.

[greatcrusade08]

There's a problem in both lists. Dreads can only take one Heavy Flamer, not two. I'd used the exrta points to upgrade the champs weapon (in the Khârn squad) to a Powerfist, otherwise that squad's going to have some trouble with dreads I think.

 

oops your right, i missed that, the issue with dreads isnt too bothersome, Khârn rolls 2D6 for armour pen and will chop up any annoying dreads with his hits on a 2+ attacks at I5 or I6

more importantly ive converted a really nice mini with Pw that im hesitant to remove.. rule of cool and all that

i suppose i can upgrade a plasma pistol for kharns squad, give each unit 2 PPs each

 

I actually like the second list better I think. It is kind of spammy, but it's also kind of Khorny! (yes, pun intended) :)

 

I've never seen that many walkers fielded for chaos before and I think it would look cool on the field. It's a nice change from the standard.

 

:lol: very khorney, yeah i like the idea of running that many walkers, ill probably start proxying minis for games, see how i get on

[Cheex]

Thoughts for a Khorne army without a DP and without Oblits:

1. Khârn. Needs no explanation.
   
2. Chosen. You could go all Khornate and give them special CCWs, but if you do that you might as well end up taking Terminators. I recommend taking 5 ranged special weapons: 5 of the same special weapon (especially meltas or plasmas), or 3+2 of a special weapon + flamers respectively. I've had great success with a 5-man Chosen squad with meltas, since taking out heavy vehicles is one of the biggest challenges for a Khorne army.
   
3. Terminators. I suggest you keep the squad reasonably small (<5 men) and use them for their combi weapons more than their close combat ability. You could try lightning claws etc, but it adds up quickly and still ends up being worse (in terms of points efficiency) than Marine equivalents.
   
4. Dreadnoughts. I like taking multimeltas on them (to plug that anti-tank gap again), even though it increases the chances of damaging your own men. If it helps, you can try "bubble-wrapping" it with a small, cheap squad of Daemons: that way, if the Dreadnought goes nuts, he will only fire at the cheapest (and most melta-proof unit) in your army. Or, if you get to charge, you can use the Daemons to tie up any annoying powerfists so they can't land hits on the big guy.
   
5. Here's an odd one: Fabius Bile (or Bill for short) and a horde of Khorne-marked enhanced CSM. For a 10-man squad, you're averaging the same cost per model as a Berzerker, but get to take meltaguns and flamers on top of that :tu:
   
6. Small bike/raptor squads. These guys are too expensive to really take as shock assault troops, but small squads with meltas or plasmas can really cause hurt in just the right place.
   
7. Defilers. I recommend, as above, that you keep the reaper autocannon, but replace the TLHF with another combat weapon. It's worth remembering that he can also shoot the big cannon and assault in the same turn, resulting in much mayhem... :)
   
8. Vindicators. A great anti-Thunderwolf vehicle, thanks to instant death. Roll them up either in front of your Rhinos (to grant them cover) or behind them (if you really need the cannon).
   
9. Predators. Tri-las Preds are very expensive for what they do, but auto-las configurations work very well for reliably popping enemy light/medium armour.
   
10. Havocs. 4x autocannons or missile launchers are great, and while they aren't anywhere near as good a deal as Long Fangs, they're still some of the best shooting that we have. Autocannons (probably the more fluffy choice for Khorne) are statistically better against AV11 and identical against AV12, while MLs are better for AV13. Keep the unit small and cheap.
    
11. Land Raiders. LR + Khârn + Berzerkers = Winning.
    

Those are some of the things that have worked for me. I honestly believe that Khorne can still work against your average opponent, even without DPs and Oblits. Just don't expect them to win tournaments ;)

 

How do you find your plasma pistols on the 'zerkers? They a good investment? They seem to give the 'zerkers some much needed punch when using rhinos.

 

i take them becuase zerkers are no longer the alpha assault units, GK with halberds are nasty, so i figure its worth the cost for the chance of killing one or two more pre assault (every little helps).

the big reason was like you said, in rhinos the two fire points mean 2 plasma shots on the turn before assault (and then on the turn we actually assault), i figure Deldar skimmers are prone to plasma which means hopefully we can force some emergency disembarking and chop up the squishy insides

I'm actually starting to warm to this idea as well, having had many situations where a few extra kills before the charge (especially against Terminators) would have helped immensely.

[greatcrusade08]

i guess it goes without saying that heavy support is necessary in a competative khorne army :cuss

i think given the models i have available ill start running this list:

 

Khârn (165)

9 berserkers (249)

-2 plasma pistols

-PW champ

Land raider (235)

-extra armour

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

8 berserkers (273)

-2 plasma pistols

-PF champ

-rhino

 

dreadnought (120)

-2 DCCW

-heavy flamer

-extra armour

 

dreadnought (120)

-2 DCCW

-heavy flamer

-extra armour

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

Defiler (150)

-3 DCCW

-reaper autocannon

-battlecannon

 

1735

 

if i find the LR is too easily picked off ill switch to the addtional walkers..

btw whats the thoughts on daemonic posession on a land raider?

[Liba terminatus]

Meh prety rubbish against GK as it makes them count as a deamon :D

 

Plus it makes the land raider almost an over-investment

 

But heh never use one in my 600pt games :P

 

Now if they could transform... :lol:

[Cheex]

if i find the LR is too easily picked off ill switch to the addtional walkers..

btw whats the thoughts on daemonic posession on a land raider?

The only real use Daemonic Possession has is to keep a vehicle shooting when it gets shaken. Land Raiders are pretty rubbish shooting platforms (even loyalist ones with POTMS are marginal), and are mostly used in a Chaos army for transporting assault units (Berzerkers) into combat. You might as well save 5pts and take extra armour instead.

 

That said, the LR is probably the best vehicle to receive possession, since all of its weapons are twin-linked anyway. There's just not much point in firing those weapons in the first place until after the cargo has been delivered.

[greatcrusade08]

The only real use Daemonic Possession has is to keep a vehicle shooting when it gets shaken. Land Raiders are pretty rubbish shooting platforms (even loyalist ones with POTMS are marginal), and are mostly used in a Chaos army for transporting assault units (Berzerkers) into combat. You might as well save 5pts and take extra armour instead.

 

That said, the LR is probably the best vehicle to receive possession, since all of its weapons are twin-linked anyway. There's just not much point in firing those weapons in the first place until after the cargo has been delivered.

 

thats a very good point, ive always said the LR suffers from an identity crisis.. ^^ this is the way it should behave, deliver the goods then smash the enemy afterwards

[the jeske]

the problem with this list is that 2xDP does make it work better 2 more targets [LR downgraded to rhino . rest of points in to a DP] . The last and only time we have seen an army like this win a GT was back when the dex came out and someone won a GT with a build simiular to this [only with 2x5zerker unit 3 dreads and 2 DPs and a third defiler].

 

IF no DPs the the changes I would make is drop the LR take a rhino for the Khârn squad . buy the bigest terminator unit possible to give an extra short range unit that has to be killed to draw away fire from the rhinos.

[Kevlarshark]

I have run a very similar list in a 1500pts tournie and did ok. It makes short work of expensive elite type armys (where you can focus your fire/close combat power), but watch out

for horde or anti tank spam type lists... A unlucky turn of shooting could leave you with Khârn and 24 bezerkers.