Marneus Calgar: can he be played in a competitive army?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Battle Brothers,

 

I'm planning to start my next Space Marine Project: an army based on the Red Hunters chapter, the chapter tasked to hunt down traitor legions. It appeared in the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour series and given its strong relationships with Inquisition it would connect perfectly with my main Grey Knights army.

 

My intention is to build the mentioned army with Codex: Space Marine, using Marneus Calagar to represent a honourable hero of that chapter.

 

Is is possible to build a very competitive army around Calgar or at least playing it with a competive army?

 

I know the presence of special characters is not enough to dominate the battlefield but I'd like to build an army that can "tell a story" and the presence of a great hero, represented by Calgar's stats and equipment, is always a very pleasing part of that process.

 

At first I thought to use Lysander but the new finecast models should be easier to modify, namely removing original chapter logos and adding new ones.

 

Do you have any suggestion for this project?

 

Your assistance is always very appreciated, Battle Brothers.

[vanguardwolf]

"grabs codex"

calgar is a great model but in a competitive list quite expensive for a 3+ or 2+ and 4++ save

reroll to wound is nice and with a PF outch!

take a landraider and a stern guard squad (vengance rounds AP3)

would work nicely, but there are other more comp. options imho

 

 

1 take lysander with his bolter drill and a stern guard squad (vengance rounds AP3)

they will kill alot of traitors

 

2 take pedro with 3 stern guard squad's droppod's (vengance rounds AP3, hold the line)

and 2 scout squads as troops, and 1 or 2 scoutbike squads(locator beacon!!)

both the scout (bike) squads find the traitors and call in the big guy's

this also fits the theme, als they give traitors no save, and then claime the objective.

 

 

3 reading the fluff they are close to the inq and GK so maby a libby is the way to go,

picture this:

a epistolary in TDA, with SS 190 pts

and giving him powers to your flavor(the avenger AP3 fit's the theme)

give him with a stern guard squad (vengance rounds AP3)

and a nice transport

 

 

or juist kit out a normal HQ up to flavour(makes the best models i think)

anyway i think that sternguards would fit the best in your theme

in the end it's all up to you, and your creativeness.

 

 

greets

[DarkGuard]

You seem to have missed the main reason as to why people would want to take Calgar, the ability for all your units with combat tactics to choose to pass or fail morale tests, instead of testing for them. Combined with ATSNKF this gives you massive tactical flexibility. Need to quickly withdraw in the face of overwhelming odds? Fail and regroup. But we can do that anyway. Now, if a unit is really needed to hold position, you can just declare that they auto-pass, that is what makes him good.

 

I imagine you'll be using the TDA Calgar as you mention the finecast model. He comes with some cool Honour Guard, but you can still use him alongside Terminators of any sort, etc. I would stick him in a Land Raider however, to keep him mobile and safe, and you can still use his God of War ability to auto-pass or fail tests.

 

The AP2 bolters are cool, but the brilliant thing is the 4 wounds and 4 attacks base, and the fact that if you use the power fists you get 5 attacks with them with re-rolls to wound. And you have EW, so you don't have to worry so much about hidden power fists. Alternatively, if striking first is more imperative go for 4 power weapon attacks. Still re-rolls to wound, and you still have as many attacks as any other Captain or Chapter Master with two hand weapons.

 

A good choice, who can inspire and keep your army going, whose only downfall is his points cost, and the fact that you can't get him a 3++ and the 2+ is only in TDA, which brings difficulties in transport. However, perhaps consider putting him with a 10 man Terminator squad with cyclones. A lot of points, but you don't need the Raider, his storm bolters and power fists match the equipment, he can soak up wounds and dish out the punishment. Or perhaps Honour Guard or Assault Terminators in a Land Raider?

[TyrionTheImp]

Here's the real question: Is God of War really necessary? Combat Tactics already allow you to fail morale tests on purpose. So that right there is half of its use. Your army is almost entirely Ld9, which is very good. Do you really need to be able to auto pass tests?

 

From shooting you take 25% casualties, you're probably going to pass, and when you don't, who cares? ATSKNF regroup and fire your heavy weapon, or whatever.

 

In close combat, if your Ld gets lowered by getting your butt kicked, you'd probably Combat Tactics out anyways, so no benefit there.

 

Leadership is almost nonexistent to marines to begin with, does shelling out all those points for Calgar seem worthwhile for those slim chances you don't pass your Ld9? I don't think so. Is beating the crap out of things using Boxing Gloves of Doom fun? You bet, but competitive? Iffy.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Here's the real question: Is God of War really necessary? Combat Tactics already allow you to fail morale tests on purpose. So that right there is half of its use. Your army is almost entirely Ld9, which is very good. Do you really need to be able to auto pass tests?

 

From shooting you take 25% casualties, you're probably going to pass, and when you don't, who cares? ATSKNF regroup and fire your heavy weapon, or whatever.

 

In close combat, if your Ld gets lowered by getting your butt kicked, you'd probably Combat Tactics out anyways, so no benefit there.

 

Leadership is almost nonexistent to marines to begin with, does shelling out all those points for Calgar seem worthwhile for those slim chances you don't pass your Ld9? I don't think so. Is beating the crap out of things using Boxing Gloves of Doom fun? You bet, but competitive? Iffy.

 

I think it depends the army your playing - if you're mech obviously God of War has almost no benefit, but if you're running a foot list then it could help immensely.

 

My last game I took a TDA/SS Librarian with a 10x Tactical Termy squad, and combat squadded them, sticking the Lib/5x Terms in a LR, and the 2x CML on the back of the table with 3 other Terminators. Sure enough, since it was one of the only times EVER that I kept my guys on the back lines, I lost two of my Terminators to shooting, then promptly rolled an 11 for LD and ran off the board. I know it doesn't happen often, and that was sheer bad luck on my part... but I'm unlucky often when rolling dice in this game, and an ability like that would save me from that bad luck while simultaneously providing an ass kicker with EW.

[Cmdr Shepard]

You seem to have missed the main reason as to why people would want to take Calgar, the ability for all your units with combat tactics to choose to pass or fail morale tests, instead of testing for them. Combined with ATSNKF this gives you massive tactical flexibility. Need to quickly withdraw in the face of overwhelming odds? Fail and regroup. But we can do that anyway. Now, if a unit is really needed to hold position, you can just declare that they auto-pass, that is what makes him good.

Exaclty. I beleive it's one of the main reasons, the main reasons, people play Calgar. You can field de facto fearless units without suffring the drawbacks of Fearless rule.

 

The AP2 bolters are cool, but the brilliant thing is the 4 wounds and 4 attacks base, and the fact that if you use the power fists you get 5 attacks with them with re-rolls to wound. And you have EW, so you don't have to worry so much about hidden power fists. Alternatively, if striking first is more imperative go for 4 power weapon attacks. Still re-rolls to wound, and you still have as many attacks as any other Captain or Chapter Master with two hand weapons.

Calgar's wargear match his tactical felxibility. If you want to hit hard you have access to a couple of Power fists, thus granting an additional attack, If you want to strike faster you can use his power sword.

Eternal Warrior is a wonderful rule for a high cost HQ choice. A standard Chapter Master risks to be instant killed by a single lucky power fist attack. Re-rolls to wound can make a difference. I won many games with my GK due to Grand Master's Grand Strategy and you can re-roll only 1 to wound. In addition his TDA featurs a Teleport Homer: it will probably see limited use but it's free.

 

A good choice, who can inspire and keep your army going, whose only downfall is his points cost, and the fact that you can't get him a 3++ and the 2+ is only in TDA, which brings difficulties in transport. However, perhaps consider putting him with a 10 man Terminator squad with cyclones. A lot of points, but you don't need the Raider, his storm bolters and power fists match the equipment, he can soak up wounds and dish out the punishment. Or perhaps Honour Guard or Assault Terminators in a Land Raider?

 

I'm very interested in the 10 men Terminator squad with cyclones. I know many players still favout the assault configuaration for Terminators but I have learned to appreciate the so called tectical Terminators.

TH/SS Terminators are very difficult to destroy but their 3++ save is used against power weapons and AP2 attacks only and they cannot counter-attack until they reach CC, thus the need for the Land Raider.

Tactical Terminator can reduce enemy raks before eventually meet them in CC. I have a great trust in stormbolter massed fire beside the Tactical Terminators guide here on B&C fortified my opinion about Tactical Terminators.

 

In "fluff" terms I really like the honour gaurd idea but personally I consider it too expensive. A single model costs nearly as much as a Terminator but lacks of invul save and has a very limited ranged fire capability. You can of course by upgrades but it will make their cost to levitate. It's just my opinion, though.

 

Here's the real question: Is God of War really necessary? Combat Tactics already allow you to fail morale tests on purpose. So that right there is half of its use. Your army is almost entirely Ld9, which is very good. Do you really need to be able to auto pass tests?

 

From shooting you take 25% casualties, you're probably going to pass, and when you don't, who cares? ATSKNF regroup and fire your heavy weapon, or whatever.

 

In close combat, if your Ld gets lowered by getting your butt kicked, you'd probably Combat Tactics out anyways, so no benefit there.

 

Once you suffered two more wounds then your enemy you have about the 50% chance to fail the Test. Failing a morale test can be useful but sometimes you may want to "hold the line".

Beside ATSKNF removes only the "models number's limitation" but the other still apply. This means you cannot regroup if the enemy is too close.

 

an ability like that would save me from that bad luck while simultaneously providing an ass kicker with EW.

I agree. Consider that with all the dices we roll during a single game is not unusual to roll 11 on two d6: that's why I'm so interested in "God of War" rule.

 

take pedro with 3 stern guard squad

I already play Kantor/Sternguard for my Deatwatch army so I'm looking for something different.

[DarkGuard]

Here's the real question: Is God of War really necessary? Combat Tactics already allow you to fail morale tests on purpose. So that right there is half of its use. Your army is almost entirely Ld9, which is very good. Do you really need to be able to auto pass tests?

 

From shooting you take 25% casualties, you're probably going to pass, and when you don't, who cares? ATSKNF regroup and fire your heavy weapon, or whatever.

 

In close combat, if your Ld gets lowered by getting your butt kicked, you'd probably Combat Tactics out anyways, so no benefit there.

 

Leadership is almost nonexistent to marines to begin with, does shelling out all those points for Calgar seem worthwhile for those slim chances you don't pass your Ld9? I don't think so. Is beating the crap out of things using Boxing Gloves of Doom fun? You bet, but competitive? Iffy.

 

You should know by now that things don't always work out how you want it to. Sergeants can die thanks to wound allocation, or maybe you've combat squadded. And when things require you to pass that morale test, say an important one to keep your unit in place, threatening the enemy, or on an objective, you're just as likely to fail it as pass it, even if you are Ld9.

 

Do you need God of War? No, you'll probably be fine. But that doesn't mean God of War is useless, it's a very useful ability, which, like Cmdr Shepherd has said, pretty much makes your army fearless.

[Questioner]

Better than fearless: None of those annoying No Retreat! wounds.

[thade]

Calgar lets you effectively choose whether you want to roll snake-eyes or box cars on your morale checks. Sometimes a unit kills a lot of models in an assault but loses just one more, and you need them to keep their target engaged. Or failing a morale check would mean you Flee off of the table. Want to play close to your own table edge Earth-style? Calgar will do you proud.

 

Keep in mind when analyzing units that thinking about how much they can kill in a given phase does not account either for their total points-cost or their full battle field value.

 

When I personally fielded Calgar I put him in PA; I like him hopping in Rhinos.

 

EDIT: silly phone keyboard

[Captain Idaho]

I think there is a place for Calgar in a competetive list, but you have to play to the limitations of selecting Calgar.

 

He is expensive, by about 80-100pts more than many of the characters in the game. 65pts more expensive than Lysander. That, combined with the concept of getting the most out of him means you need to give appropriate thought what his role is.

 

He needs an escort of some sort. Sure he is tough and most people won't want to take him on in a fair fight, but he will still get mobbed and be vulnerable. Likewise, to get the most out of him you could really do with a means to get him killing things and earning his keep.

 

Since he can do some good shooting with AP2 bolters, re-rolling his failed to wound rolls, I would like to use him either marching up the table with a Terminator squad and blasting away. Or Drop Podded in with a Tactical squad or even Sternguard. He can then be flexible and fight up close or play area control by virtue of being scary.

 

Of course, in Terminator armour he needs a Landraider if you want to use him for assault potential. That's where I think he becomes too difficult to justify since the costs get so big with an escort also included. Wouldn't want to do that myself, but I wouldn't say it is completely unworkable.

[thade]

Think about it like this: Calgar in a list with two tactical squads, three Dreads, three Vindicators, and Land Speeders would definitely feel like a massive waste of points. He's a beast in CC and has nice Storm Bolters, but making only two units of infantry Fearless-without-No-Retreat-Wounds definitely will not feel worth it.

 

Calgar in an infantry-heavy army is another matter. Consider 3-4 tactical squads, 1-2 assault squads, 2-3 devastator squads, maybe a scout squad or two. Suddenly you have upwards of 60-70 marines (go ahead and give some of them Rhinos) who move as you wish: falling back or standing their ground at need. The increase in tactical flexibility is immense.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Think about it like this: Calgar in a list with two tactical squads, three Dreads, three Vindicators, and Land Speeders would definitely feel like a massive waste of points. He's a beast in CC and has nice Storm Bolters, but making only two units of infantry Fearless-without-No-Retreat-Wounds definitely will not feel worth it.

 

Calgar in an infantry-heavy army is another matter. Consider 3-4 tactical squads, 1-2 assault squads, 2-3 devastator squads, maybe a scout squad or two. Suddenly you have upwards of 60-70 marines (go ahead and give some of them Rhinos) who move as you wish: falling back or standing their ground at need. The increase in tactical flexibility is immense.

 

That sounds a plan :D. I have my issues with Devastator squads: I may be wrong but they seem quite expensive in C:SM due to the cost of their heavy weapons. BA devastators cost less, if I remember correctly. For the rest this army appears very interesting. 60-70 Space Marines can ruin the day to traitors and xenos alike :)

 

Do you think Lysander is a more efficient choice for a competitive army? I was thinking about Calgar due to modelling/conversion matters (removing original chapter's icons is easier with resin models).

However if Lysander would make easier to build a competitive army I can use him. After all I would find a way to modify the model.

[thade]

I have my issues with Devastator squads: I may be wrong but they seem quite expensive in C:SM due to the cost of their heavy weapons. BA devastators cost less, if I remember correctly. For the rest this army appears very interesting. 60-70 Space Marines can ruin the day to traitors and xenos alike :D

Everyone gets so hung up on this. The army books are significantly different, so despite the fact that a 1v1 comparison between Vanilla devs and BA devs are (slightly) points-wise in favor of BA, the overall picture doesn't change much. You have different choices available and thus point-costs over each codex will be slightly different.

 

Storm Shields are 5-points more in the BA codex, for instance. This makes sense, as you have more than a few ways of making your marines more durable (and thus, more assault-capable) so your assault-oriented options (especially those that make them even thicker) will be more expensive. The other side holds true with vanilla marines: there are a plethora of ways to buff your shooting infantry units that you just don't have in BA, so sure your Devs cost a bit more.

 

Don't let the points put you off; Devs in the vanilla codex are just fine. 4xMLs and five marines to take falls for your MLs worked out for me nicely.

[Ming]

I seldom use Calgar (if ever in any games less than 2000 points) because of the fact that he rarely impacts the game - when he does get used, he plays like an uber terminator, more likely or eventually on his own. Hard to kill, big distraction. The ability to pass/fail morale is not a game changer.

 

In the typical game size range (say 1500-1850) better to have a HQ that gives a bigger buff to a nilla' marine force (Kantor's inspiring presence, librarians' null zone, Vulkan's master crafting, etc.).

 

So I'd say no, Calgar is not in a typical competition list. For the same price in points you can get a captain or base libby and a predator, or a stable full of speeders, etc.

 

In a DIY marine force, Calgar makes a good example Chapter Master, not a company captain. Great for special occaissions.

 

On the other hand, consider taking ANY of the special character marines from the FW expansions, good for any pickup-game. Just sub in a codex captain for the same points for tournament events.

[Brother Valerius]

I have my issues with Devastator squads: I may be wrong but they seem quite expensive in C:SM due to the cost of their heavy weapons. BA devastators cost less, if I remember correctly. For the rest this army appears very interesting. 60-70 Space Marines can ruin the day to traitors and xenos alike :cuss

Everyone gets so hung up on this. The army books are significantly different, so despite the fact that a 1v1 comparison between Vanilla devs and BA devs are (slightly) points-wise in favor of BA, the overall picture doesn't change much. You have different choices available and thus point-costs over each codex will be slightly different.

 

Storm Shields are 5-points more in the BA codex, for instance. This makes sense, as you have more than a few ways of making your marines more durable (and thus, more assault-capable) so your assault-oriented options (especially those that make them even thicker) will be more expensive. The other side holds true with vanilla marines: there are a plethora of ways to buff your shooting infantry units that you just don't have in BA, so sure your Devs cost a bit more.

 

Don't let the points put you off; Devs in the vanilla codex are just fine. 4xMLs and five marines to take falls for your MLs worked out for me nicely.

 

Normally you'd be right, but I disagree with your ultimate conclusion. Devastators are not just fine in C:SM, they're way overpriced for what you get. I've never used them, and never will (I use Predators for my fire support, far cheaper and just as effective). It's a shame because I'd like to, but with the obscene prices for those boys I just can't justify using them.

[thade]

Normally you'd be right, but I disagree with your ultimate conclusion. Devastators are not just fine in C:SM, they're way overpriced for what you get. I've never used them, and never will (I use Predators for my fire support, far cheaper and just as effective). It's a shame because I'd like to, but with the obscene prices for those boys I just can't justify using them.

One lucky shot from a bored tactical squad can equal no more Predator. The same cannot be said for a Devastator squad. You're paying for their relative resilience in a codex where you have lots of ranged (buffable) options to choose from, and getting a discount for them in a codex where you could otherwise take assault-centric (buffable) options. I stand by my claims, which have held up in my own games (using either Codex). Their prices aren't obscene, especially when they can choose to pass or fail their morale check and whether several successful missile kills while still dishing out anti-tank fire.

 

Marneus is one thing I very much miss from the vanilla codex.

[Cmdr Shepard]

On the other hand, consider taking ANY of the special character marines from the FW expansions, good for any pickup-game. Just sub in a codex captain for the same points for tournament events.

 

I really like IA expansions but sadly many players refuse to play against FW rules. This is not the place for this ancient quarrel about FW rules but their use seems to be very limited even in the so called friendly games. It's sad but at my local store only about the 20% of players have no objections against FW rules, another 20% agrees but they start to complain about them if you win the game and the 60% left refuse to play if you use FW rules.

This is the reason I don't play a Red Scorpions army because without Culln or Loth they look as standard marines with different colors and icons.

 

That's why I want to use a standard character for my project.

 

 

By the way, I have question for all you, Battle Brothers:

 

Do you think Lysander will be a better choice for a competitive army?

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I think it is a case of how you build your list. For example, Lysander drop podding in with 10 Sternguard will be lovely as he will be in a position to hurt opponents turn 1 with good firepower and a hard caramel centre if anyone dares to counter charge.

 

However, Calgar can stroll up the field with a Terminator squad and actually contribute with his AP2 bolters, rather than watching the action. He also protects the squad in assaults just like Lysander does, but in turn protects the army on the back field unlike drop podding Lysander.

 

I know what the response to this will be; Lysander can march up the field also. Yes that's true, but remember those Terminators and their heavy weapons will often be shooting at hard targets, meaning re-rolling bolters is not always better than AP2 shots and heavy weapons. Example is heavy infantry, but also firing at vehicles with the heavy weapons.

 

Really they both fit into the same roles but in different ways. Both are horrible to face in assault, both are expensive and both require thought to their place in the army and game plan. And if you want Calgar in decent armour, they are both just as hard to move around the table without a large expence.

 

What I'm saying is it's a case of fitting the army around the character, since they are both difficult to use unless in their ideal circumstances.

 

I'd take Calgar over Lysander because he's better in assaults on the whole, is still very survivable, can shoot well and allows for great control of your army in regards to morale. But then that's perhaps because of how I would use him.

[thade]

This really is one of those trick questions, isn't it? I fear even I fell for it. :)

 

If your list fits your play-style, you will both enjoy it and do well with it. If either Calgar or Lysander fits well into the list that fits you, you will love one or both of them; if neither fit anywhere, they will both suck. <3

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'd take Calgar over Lysander because he's better in assaults on the whole, is still very survivable, can shoot well and allows for great control of your army in regards to morale. But then that's perhaps because of how I would use him.

That was my original opinion.

 

If your list fits your play-style, you will both enjoy it and do well with it.

I'm very "adaptive" when I play Space Marines and I enjoy many play-styles. The intention of this project is to give me another play-style to use around.

I suppose the infantry army you suggested would be one of the best choices for a Calgar led force. I only hope my desire to field him will not ruin the army's overall competitivity. He should be a useful asset, though.

[TonytheKnife]

Calgar in my opinion is just too much of a point sink for a competitive list. Can you smash face with him in a LR? Of course, but he isn't in that behemoth alone. A full squad of TH/SS Terminators are probably in there with him, and lets face it, they are going to probably roll anything they touch regardless if Calgar is with them or not.

 

My opinion is, while he is a really fluffy choice... there are just better options to fill the HQ requirement in a tournament list.

[thade]

While the Hammernators are charging one unit, Calgar can break off and engage another on his own...or just speed the demise of the Hammer target.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i'd take them both, Calgar in AoA, add in "Capt" lysander's command squad with x4 storm shields and x4 storm bolters + FNP, doing the deathstar in an LRC. run it behind either a double or a triple dose of vindicators for the av13 screen add in three five man scout squads with fast attack LSS for air support.

Competitive? doubtful

legal? sure

fun? hella

helpful to the OP question: doubtful

[DarkGuard]

Do bear in mind that if you were to run both Calgar and Lysander, you lose Calgar's God of War ability. Lysander's Chapter Tactics overides Combat Tactics, and God of War only works on those units that have Combat Tactics. One of the main reasons as to why you'd take Calgar is now gone, which makes the combination only useful due to the individual damage they could put out, as opposed to the support they could give.

[Cmdr Shepard]

While the Hammernators are charging one unit, Calgar can break off and engage another on his own...or just speed the demise of the Hammer target.

Personally I'm more inclined to use Tactical Terminators, maybe it's a personal preference.

 

Do bear in mind that if you were to run both Calgar and Lysander, you lose Calgar's God of War ability. Lysander's Chapter Tactics overides Combat Tactics, and God of War only works on those units that have Combat Tactics. One of the main reasons as to why you'd take Calgar is now gone, which makes the combination only useful due to the individual damage they could put out, as opposed to the support they could give.

 

True. Beside they will allocate a significant numebr of points to the HQ choices... maybe too much for a competitive or "friendly competive" scenario.