Marneus Calgar: can he be played in a competitive army?

[thade]

While the Hammernators are charging one unit, Calgar can break off and engage another on his own...or just speed the demise of the Hammer target.

Personally I'm more inclined to use Tactical Terminators, maybe it's a personal preference.

That is hip. :D

 

I still run Vanguard. I don't own a single Terminator with a TH/SS on it. Well, unless you count the one in my Space Hulk set, collecting dust while I chisel up and paint the others for my DIY. Note: they're tactical terminators.

[Cmdr Shepard]

While the Hammernators are charging one unit, Calgar can break off and engage another on his own...or just speed the demise of the Hammer target.

Personally I'm more inclined to use Tactical Terminators, maybe it's a personal preference.

That is hip. :D

 

I still run Vanguard. I don't own a single Terminator with a TH/SS on it. Well, unless you count the one in my Space Hulk set, collecting dust while I chisel up and paint the others for my DIY. Note: they're tactical terminators.

 

Let's assume we are facing an Ork Mob: 10 Terminators with 2 Cyclone ML will fire 20 Stormbolter shots and 2 blasts before charging them, with a significant chance to greately reduce the horde's numbers.

Assault Terminators will have a better defense against armour ignoring weapons but the mob will like have only one of them. They cannot reduce enemy ranks before charging thus they will have to with the mob at full strenght.

Problably the Assault TDA will be embarked on a LR Crusader that will fire at the orks but in order to maintain the same cost of the above configuration they must field less models: a LRC will cost more than 5 Terminators.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I find this topic useful and informative, but I thought I would share my two cents on just the general idea. I would have to say even the most decked out and buffed list can still fall short if the player doesn't roll well enough or adapt to the opponents movments. Given the topic of the Marneus, I would like to point being a Ultramarine player myself, it pleases and raises the fun level notches to see my Chapter Master deployed and wrecking face in the name of the Emperor. As far as a the points, in my opinion I think they are justified because of the abilities, but with the points given through this topic, I would say the gauge of which he is balanced is correct, but also understand that if you look at it as a specific stand point the model is based for that chapter to be unique, whether that is abilities or point differences. If each character were comparable to each other, then they wouldn't be as unique correct?

 

All in all besides my almost rant, I would think given how the player develops and plays the army of his or her own choosing and can adjust during the game, I don't see why Calgar cannot bring a fierce army to bare and bring forth a victory.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I would have to say even the most decked out and buffed list can still fall short if the player doesn't roll well enough or adapt to the opponents movments.

There is no doubt about it.

 

As far as a the points, in my opinion I think they are justified because of the abilities

I have to agree.

Two power fists that grant an additional attack (dual PF are truly a rarity) plus a power sword that allow you to attack at normal initiative if you don't need to use your powerfists.

AP2 Bolter: Nice

Re-roll to wound: very useful

Eternal warrior: extremely useful

God of War= tactical versatility

Plus a free teleport homer or better a TDA with homer at the usual cost of the homer itself.

 

If we read his stats we see they are worth their cost.

 

When I try to find epic heroes in a SM codex I always look at Calgar in C:SM and Draigo in C:GK. Many times you cannot field them due to points restriction but those warriors walk in an aura of epic.

The fun of 40k rests even in these things :)

[thade]

Wait. Calgar as a teleport homer?! How did I miss that? I would've gone crazy DSing crap to him! damn.

[Master Melta]

no he doesn't...

[thade]

Plus a free teleport homer or better a TDA with homer at the usual cost of the homer itself.

Then...what was this in reference to? You have confused me. @_@ *brain reboots*

[DarkGuard]

no he doesn't...

 

Oh yes he does! :)

 

But really, he does, C:SM page 84, Armour of Antilochus: Calgar may choose to wear his suit of Terminator armour, which includes a teleport homer.

 

Grand Master Mordrak himself wishes he had a suit :yes:.

[Captain Idaho]

With a nod towards the teleport homer I had a sneaky tactic planned but have not yet tried:

 

Calgar, resplendant in his Terminator armour goes inside a Drop Podding full Tactical squad (thus keeping the costs down).

 

They drop in 1st turn for immediate butt-kicking with Calgar and his mates that should be quite durable as there are 10 scoring bodies plus a walking Landraider in the middle of them.

 

You cunningly have a unit of Terminators in reserve ready to deep strike and support your attack.

 

And voila! A recipe for applying pressure on opponents!

 

Of course you could do with adding Scout Bikers for more support and maybe even have Drop Pods in multiples with a couple Iron Clads for more nastiness...

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I haven't used Marneus quite like that, but I do run terminators in similar fashion. The downfall is when youre reserves come in and when they don't.

 

I usually have my scouts with Telion carry a beacon and 2 tactical squads carry one for more versatility because the drop pod can be used as a beacon as well. So the way it usually plays out is by turn two, I have a wide variety of places my terminators and Captain can deepstrike in and purge the Imperium of scum!

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty Telion can't take a beacon. Well, he can't, and neither can the Tactical squad, just teleport homers for them, not locator beacons ;). But, with Telion, he's a unit upgrade that replaces the Sergeant. Telion's own equipment doesn't include a teleport homer, he doesn't retain the one from the Sergeant he replaced, and he doesn't have the option for one, so therefore he can't take one.

[thade]

I'm pretty Telion can't take a beacon. Well, he can't, and neither can the Tactical squad, just teleport homers for them, not locator beacons :). But, with Telion, he's a unit upgrade that replaces the Sergeant. Telion's own equipment doesn't include a teleport homer, he doesn't retain the one from the Sergeant he replaced, and he doesn't have the option for one, so therefore he can't take one.

Correct. Sadly. :(

[Koremu]

Yeah, irritatingly true. BA scouts get Locator Beacons though. As do everyones Scout Bikers, and of course BA can have them on Stormraven.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

**EDIT** Well I don't want to be the cause of a sidetrack train, so the Telion question I have will have to be posted if not researched.

 

And I meant beacon to be typed as teleport homer, my mistake.

 

As far as Calgar, I have seen proof that he has been a game changer even without his Armour of Anticulious. If anyone here locally knows of the gent I refer to, they will agree he can be a mighty problem to contend with.

[DarkGuard]

I don't think anyone is contesting that Calgar is a game changer, he certainly is. I think the main problem people find is his points cost compared to other characters. However, there is a reason why I'm now very tempted to do a Calgar with 10 man Tactical Terminator cyclone unit, unfortunately my army's fluff and my wallet won't let me do this :blink:.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I agree no one was contesting, I was just pointing the view I've seen first hand that he can be played even a bit cheaper without his Anticulious armour option and still be competitive and win. As I stated before that it also depends on the dice and if you can out think and out manevour your opponent to give you those moments to crush his will along with his army in the process.

 

 

The list I know of that my idol has played did not run teminators in his list with calgar. It was Calgar, honour guards, and I believe a rhino. He had support of course in the way of typhoons and land speeders among others, but he put Calgar in position for the wins. If you like the character and can maximize your armies capability then the cost is worth the taking.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The list I know of that my idol has played did not run teminators in his list with calgar. It was Calgar, honour guards, and I believe a rhino. He had support of course in the way of typhoons and land speeders among others, but he put Calgar in position for the wins. If you like the character and can maximize your armies capability then the cost is worth the taking.

 

Honour Guards cost nearly as much as Terminators but they lack invul. saves and ranged fire upgrades levitate their cost even further. Beside without upgrades they are unable to counter vehicles, especially dreads. Relic blades are interesting but they are not free.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

I know the point value of each, I am just pointing out he was capable of winning with his style of army with calgar present.

 

**Edit** You may not have the invuls on the honour guard, but you get the champion and banner benefits as well as relics. You shouldn't rely on one squad even if it includes Calgar to dispose of heavies. Anyone who sees that type of setup will instantly go for the throat of wiping them out and then piecing your army apart. Besides you don't have to destroy vehicles to make a win, immobilized or weapon destroyed will do just fine in circumstances as well. I still stand by my statement of Calgar can be in a list and ran competitively, but shouldn't be the only unit relied on to pull the victory.

 

 

Points aside it still comes down to what you think of the character and if he fits your type of play and if you can adjust on the battlefield.

[thade]

Honour Guards cost nearly as much as Terminators but they lack invul. saves and ranged fire upgrades levitate their cost even further. Beside without upgrades they are unable to counter vehicles, especially dreads. Relic blades are interesting but they are not free.

Honour Guards are very specifically anti-infantry focused. If you engage that Power Klaw with Calgar, the HG will wreck that Ork Boy unit's day. One to two relic blades, power swords and 2+ saves...it's a good time.

 

I do not recommend charging dreads, tanks, Hammernators, or the like with HG; they're not equipped for it.

[DarkGuard]

Honour Guards cost nearly as much as Terminators but they lack invul. saves and ranged fire upgrades levitate their cost even further. Beside without upgrades they are unable to counter vehicles, especially dreads. Relic blades are interesting but they are not free.

Honour Guards are very specifically anti-infantry focused. If you engage that Power Klaw with Calgar, the HG will wreck that Ork Boy unit's day. One to two relic blades, power swords and 2+ saves...it's a good time.

 

I do not recommend charging dreads, tanks, Hammernators, or the like with HG; they're not equipped for it.

 

Really? My Honour Guard grounded some Assault Terminators and Lysander into the dust the other day. Granted they did also have a Libby joining in who had cast Null Zone, but that's beside the point.

 

In the end, I prefer Honour Guard over Terminators anyday. There's a small amount of targets you definitely shouldn't throw them against, but you get cheaper transport and you already have a HQ, so it's all good. More fun to play with as well.

[TyrionTheImp]

Honor Guard are a bully unit, Terminators are not so much. That is the difference really. HG can slaughter infantry that lack power weapons, which is most, and those that have power weapons but are at lower Initiative. Terminators don't give a crap what your I is, nor do they care if you have power weapons.

 

However, with armies like BA with Furious Charge running around and PW's a plenty, DE with very high initiative on any assault units and potential for power weapons, and GK with I6 Halberds, I'm thinking HG aren't as effective as they once were.

[Captain Idaho]

They certainly are reduced in effectiveness, especially against Grey Knights, but there are always something you can do with them.

 

Dark Eldar infantry still die in droves, just as long as you don't attack Incubi and the like!

 

BA are a little problem if they charge, but their Assault Marines still get eaten alive by Honour Guard.

 

Those Grey Knights are a problem, but there are some targets they can be used against. In a recent tournament I used Honour Guard along with my Master to wipe out 10 Grey Knight Strike Marines and enable my Tactical squad to hold their only objective. I lost 2 men in the process and made 2 saves on my Master, which is about average for 1 attack models. I won this game by an objective!

 

Basically what I'm saing is you need to think really carefully on what to attack with them to get use out of them. Threat and just plain suicide attacks can give you a good result, as long as it's a carefully considered gamble.

 

Now as for Honour Guard with Calgar; I've never tried it! I really should, but I just can't bring myself to use Calgar in Power Armour when the Terminator model is so much better looking! Plus having a 2+ save is very nice. Thing is, now I would need a Landraider which bumps up costs so much!

 

Would be nice to have a 7 attack Calgar on the charge mind...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Really? My Honour Guard ground some Assault Terminators and Lysander into the dust the other day. Granted they did also have a Libby joining in who had cast Null Zone, but that's beside the point.

 

In the end, I prefer Honour Guard over Terminators anyday. There's a small amount of targets you definitely shouldn't throw them against, but you get cheaper transport and you already have a HQ, so it's all good. More fun to play with as well.

 

3++ save. 1/3 failure or 33%

 

3++ re-rolling successes with Nullzone:

1/3 fail + (2/3 successful x 1/3 fail)

= 3/9 + 2/9

= 5/9 failure or 55%

 

That is a fair drop in the performance of their most defining ability :D

 

+++

 

I'm sure people will still use HG well but....

HG are harder to use than Hammernators, right?

Now those GK have trumped what it is the HG had as their niche - decent Initiative power weapon attacks.

Yes Banshees and Incubi were already faster with their power weapons, but they are flimsy Elves and come apart to enough pewpew.

GK are Marines, and so are more awkward to deal with.

 

It is like having two species that both hunt the same prey, and imo, GW has given the GK the upper hand in that department when you combine it with the superior shooting they have over HG. It is like GW is driving them to extinction by making a more highly strung thing harder to use.

 

It would be more playable if:

~ you could get Storm shields into the squad directly.

~ you didn't need the Master to unlock them. That way you could spend the points on Shrike or Khan, etc. and still get guys playing with HG.

 

Fleet HG hopping from a Rhino?

Hit & Run and Furious charge HG terrorising the enemy?

:D

[Captain Idaho]

Oh certainly, Grey Knights are a super predator with teeth just as big as Honour Guard (or bigger). But they are a single army out of many, plus Honour Guard can still do things on a table with Grey Knights. Like I said, Strike squads and Interceptors aren't much cop in assaults, so if you absolutely have to remove a unit you can charge them with the Honour Guard and do so. You will likely lose some models, but odds are good the opponent won't have any Halberds in those units due to their mediocre assault potential.

 

Sure you might lose a unit of Honour Guard to remove a unit of Interceptors (odds are some will survive though, or at least the Master), you have bought time and removed a substantial number of enemy models from an army with limited troop numbers to begin with.

 

I definitely am sure Honour Guard are not at their best against GKs, but it's just one of those things really. Not being in a Landraider at least means you haven't wasted too much on a significant aspect of your winning chances.

 

Anyway, yes as Codex books have gone on I have noticed an increase in the respective Codex books' premier assault units and their power levels. Sanguine Guard (or whatever they are called!) have access to Furious Charge, Thunder Wolves are Thunder Wolves :D , Grey Knights got Halberds and Paladins etc... Honour Guard need to be changed slightly in the next Codex.

 

I want 2 wounds ideally, for 40pts a model with no other changes would be good enough for me. Access to Storm Shields would be distinctly Ultramarines which I like a lot too.

[Questioner]

Yeah, I'd like, at least, to be able to storm shield them. Unit of 10 HG with RB+SS+ Chapoter Banner...