Tulkas Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hey all, I was thinking, is it just me, or do others see similarities between the Astral Claws and the Celestial Lions? Both have 'Big cats' as a theme, the colors are roughly similar (silver blue vs. gold blue). And the Tiger Claws (AC successor) have gold in their heraldry. Furthermore, the AC have 'three sons' (suggested as meaning Successors) but only the Tiger Claws are mentioned in this. That leaves room for another (cat-inspired) Chapter. Also, the CL are said to go back over 4,000 years which could make them an AC successor, since the AC have been around since M35. (Was counting backwards from M41 and that roughly left 3M between possible AC and CL foundings). Origins on the CL are sketchy at best, so theres nothing preventing them from being AC born. It could also 'explain' why one Inquisitor might deem it necessary to have the Chapter destroyed. I'm just throwing out thoughts here, I'd like to hear your points on it. But please, do try to bring in facts and not just subjectiveness (not too much anyway). Okay, awaiting your replies. Later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 It's possible, but other than the similarities what else is there? Does work a little bit though doesn't it? Another reason why the Celestial Lions were nearly wiped out on Armageddon... Some Inquisitor figures since the Astral Claws have gone rogue that all their successor Chapters need to be purged... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulkas Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 It's possible, but other than the similarities what else is there? Does work a little bit though doesn't it? Another reason why the Celestial Lions were nearly wiped out on Armageddon... Some Inquisitor figures since the Astral Claws have gone rogue that all their successor Chapters need to be purged... Like I said, it's a brainfart I can't get rid off, thats why I posted it here. I would like to see if other people may have more 'leads' to support this theory of mine. I'm a big CL fan and I would in no way play, or make, them Renegades or have them join up with Huron, but it would make a real cool twist in their background, preferably if we can find leads to it but not prove it (I love a good conspiracy at times). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I doubt they were originally conceived that way (since most of the similarities didn't exist previously), but it does seem like the sort of thing Forge World would do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulkas Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 I doubt they were originally conceived that way (since most of the similarities didn't exist previously), but it does seem like the sort of thing Forge World would do. I agree that it's probably coincidence, but it's an interesting door that's opened, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Certainly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Mind = blown. I would LOVE for a fluff connection between these two to be made by FW or anyone official really. :) (I'd prefer Bligh do it for FW though - his fluff writing is top notch, imho.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2822993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasman Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I doubt they were originally conceived that way (since most of the similarities didn't exist previously), but it does seem like the sort of thing Forge World would do. I agree that it's probably coincidence, but it's an interesting door that's opened, right? Certainly a mere coincidence to my opinion, besides there are many other chapters with big cats names: Tigers Argent, White Panthers, Desert Lions, Lion Warriors. And fluffwise the Inquisition is supposed to have contributed to the demise of the Celestial Lion (by giving false intelligence) because they had made "series of very loud and public condemnations against the Inquisition", not because they were supposed to be successors of the Astral Claws. If there were suspicions of some Chaos taint they would simply have sent the Grey Knights to make sure the job was properly done. The Orks are a bit messy you know and they even leave survivors. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2826301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Dracus Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I like the way this thread is going! :-) I have had the same thought for a while now and have decided to make a Celestial Lions army. I can't seem to find too much information on them so I will be running them as a "Vulken list" but I am going to be using the Lugft Huron model as my "Counts as" Vulken as both have nice heavy flamers and Huron has that nice Lion shoulder pad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2850336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Haduwig Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Interesting... Well Astral Claws are supposadly founded in M35. The Celestial Lions were in M38 which is when the Astral Claws were supposedly used to found 3 chapters one of which is the Tiger Claws. So even if it's pure coincidence, with the similarities between them and the fluff, it could work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2850366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The Celestial Lions weren't founded in M38. Those numbers are all confused (I think the CLs' was switched with the Celebrants, who you may notice have an appropriate date AND a date of their demise, in addition to being right next to the Celestial Lions). They're described as having six millennia of history in their Armageddon file, which could mean anywhere from M35 to M36. The article which provides M38 would suggest M36, assuming the dates were transposed. It'd be odd if the Claws had earned a successor so early in their history, but I suppose it's not impossible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2850424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Haduwig Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I was relaying what i read on http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Celestial_Lions and http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Celestial_Lions both said thats when they were founded. However i know that the fluff doesnt always match up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2850681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Both of those sites are mistaken due to a misinterpretation. The Index Astartes article for the Third War for Armageddon depicted color schemes for all of the participating Chapters, each with a date beneath the scheme. The date below the Celestial Lions scheme is M.38. All of the known Second Founding Chapters, including those that retained the name/scheme from the First Founding Progenitor Legion, is M.31. This created a situation in which many players, myself included, interpreted the dates beneath the schemes to be the millennium of the Chapter's founding. However, the material at the Third War for Armageddon website provided slightly different information. The first sentence of the Celestial Lions page was, "The Celestial Lions have a long and glorious history, stretching back over four thousand years..." So doing the math, if it's M.41, over four thousand years ago would be either M.37 or M.36. I tend to agree with Octavulg on this in thinking that the captions below the Celebrants (M.36-M.41) and Celestial Lions (M.38) were inadvertently reversed, but that is just speculation. The basic concept of tying the Celestial Lions to the Astral Claws is sound, though I'm not a huge fan of the notion. What little information we have on the Celestial Lions portrays a very noble and idealistic Chapter (almost to the point of naivete), whereas the Astral Claws under Lufgt Huron are decidedly different. Such differences are easily explained, however. If we draw the obvious conclusion about the Celestial Lions' fate and the involvement of the Inquisition, the motivation was firmly based in self-preservation and vindictiveness on the part of the Inquisition. I think that pulling the Astral Claws into the equation significantly diminishes that motivation and debases the perceived nobility of the Celestial Lions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2850745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Dracus Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 I thought I would throw an update in here letting you guys know that I have started my Celestial Lions army. My Lugft Huron model is not done being painted yet but I though I would give you a taste for what it looks like so far. If you like what you see you can follow my blog at http://dracusjournal.blogspot.com/ I try to update it once every 1-1.5 weeks. http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae109/LordDracus40k/Celestial%20Lions/2011-11-11_23-11-50_994.jpg http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae109/LordDracus40k/Celestial%20Lions/2011-10-29_19-44-54_676.jpg http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae109/LordDracus40k/Celestial%20Lions/2011-11-11_23-10-02_203.jpg http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae109/LordDracus40k/Celestial%20Lions/2011-10-29_19-45-30_423.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2924077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Great models for a great Chapter. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2925751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Dang, I literally just finished IA: 9 and 10 a few days ago, and was planning on posting this very same conspiricy theory, lol. Good eye, Tulkas, it's a fun little idea! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234386-astral-claws-celestial-lions-similarities/#findComment-2927015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.