Written into a corner

[Codicier Lucion]

I'd planned to upload a full IA once it was completed, details and all, but there's been some trouble writing the basic story behind my latest chapter the Orpheus Guard. In the initial thread, before it became derailed by people complaining about how using tanks in war was unrealistic, a good idea was put forwards by soddinutter.

 

To cut a long story short it involved the interesting concept of their homeworld being split across various dimensions. The alien labyrinths and AI encountered were once a base of operations researching into alternate universes. The result being that reality itself across the chapter's homeworld is "broken" with various pockets leading into hundreds of realities across the entire planet and the space surrounding it.

 

This is an abridged version of what has been written so far:

 

- The Orpheus Guard act as a fleet based crusading chapter tasked with retaking outlying worlds occupied by xenos races or which have succeeded from the Imperium. They build up a reputation for conquering any world they land upon and despite several hundred years of crusades never suffer a major defeat.

- Their crusades eventually bring them to a system on the edge of the galaxy consisting of nothing but dead worlds but with a human distress signal coming from the sixth planet. A world covered in unnatural storms which have essentially glassed the entire surface.

- Entering a massive network of silver tunnels beneath the planet's surface the chapter encounters savage humans living in fear of something called the Nightmare Machine and the Scions, automata which serve it. While trying to set up a base of operations to take the tunnels, the only safe location from the storms, they come under siege from the Scions in constant hit and run attacks.

- The companies deployed launch a counter assault, but are beaten back with heavy casualties as they are divided and conquered. Only the heavy armour of the chapter's battle tanks proves to be resistant to the Scions weapons.

- Acting out of pride the chapter master orders the first company, along with almost the entirety of its armoured divisions, to be deployed in an act of revenge against the Scions. To try and recover the fallen from the previous engagements and annihilate the machines.

- As the Scions are driven back several units of terminators come across the Nightmare Machine itself, lurking in a massive fortress factory hidden deep within the labyrinth. Battling their way inside the terminators fight their way to the Machine itself, a powerful xenos artificial intelligence. One left by a long extinct race to research into alternate universes and monitor them.

- As the space marines attempt to break into the centre of its stronghold, the Machine recalls the Scions to its location. Slowly being overwhelmed by the beings servants Tyron, the dreadnought leading the terminators manages to destroy the Machine's core in an attempt to call off the Scions.

- The result is catastrophic with dozens of semi-stable pockets of reality being created across the planet, scattering hundreds of the Orpheus Guard's members into countless realities. Further weakening the chapter, cutting them off from much of their gene-seed, fallen and equipment.

 

And from there i'm not sure where to go, it's so unlike anything i've written for 40K that i'm simply not sure what to do.

I have an idea of the end result, having the Orpheus Guard searching through these realities for their lost members as a different spin on the usual Dark Angel chapter's hunting the Fallen but no idea how to reach that end.

 

Any help or suggestions, relevant ones, would seriously be appreciated.

[Ferrus Manus]

- The Orpheus Guard act as a fleet based crusading chapter tasked with retaking outlying worlds occupied by xenos races or which have succeeded from the Imperium. They build up a reputation for conquering any world they land upon and despite several hundred years of crusades never suffer a major defeat.

Hmm, ok fine. Just be careful how you write that last bit, it could stray into the dark realm of MISS syndrome.

- Their crusades eventually bring them to a system on the edge of the galaxy consisting of nothing but dead worlds but with a human distress signal coming from the sixth planet. A world covered in unnatural storms which have essentially glassed the entire surface.

- Entering a massive network of silver tunnels beneath the planet's surface the chapter encounters savage humans living in fear of something called the Nightmare Machine and the Scions, automata which serve it. While trying to set up a base of operations to take the tunnels, the only safe location from the storms, they come under siege from the Scions in constant hit and run attacks.

Seems good to me.

- The companies deployed launch a counter assault, but are beaten back with heavy casualties as they are divided and conquered. Only the heavy armour of the chapter's battle tanks proves to be resistant to the Scions weapons.

So these 'Scions' have weaponry powerful enough to cause an Astarte in full battle plate to worry but if they're in a tank they are ok? Hmm, now the logic is starting to get a bit shaky.

- Acting out of pride the chapter master orders the first company, along with almost the entirety of its armoured divisions, to be deployed in an act of revenge against the Scions. To try and recover the fallen from the previous engagements and annihilate the machines.

Why just the 1st Company, and bearing in mind a young Chapter is unlikely to have inherited or given large amounts of tanks.

- As the Scions are driven back several units of terminators come across the Nightmare Machine itself, lurking in a massive fortress factory hidden deep within the labyrinth. Battling their way inside the terminators fight their way to the Machine itself, a powerful xenos artificial intelligence. One left by a long extinct race to research into alternate universes and monitor them.

- As the space marines attempt to break into the centre of its stronghold, the Machine recalls the Scions to its location. Slowly being overwhelmed by the beings servants Tyron, the dreadnought leading the terminators manages to destroy the Machine's core in an attempt to call off the Scions.

- The result is catastrophic with dozens of semi-stable pockets of reality being created across the planet, scattering hundreds of the Orpheus Guard's members into countless realities. Further weakening the chapter, cutting them off from much of their gene-seed, fallen and equipment.

So the Chapter gets scattered across time, which begs the question if some of them got sent into the past why didn't they try and prevent this, or at least warn he Imperium of the danger?

 

++++++++++++++++++

 

It's an interesting idea, but it needs some thought and tweaking to make it work - I think.

[Codicier Lucion]

Hmm, ok fine. Just be careful how you write that last bit, it could stray into the dark realm of MISS syndrome.

 

Yeah, that was added to excuse some of their later actions as the result of hubris. With the chapter master refusing to retreat from their battle despite heavy losses in order to maintain their reputation.

 

So these 'Scions' have weaponry powerful enough to cause an Astarte in full battle plate to worry but if they're in a tank they are ok? Hmm, now the logic is starting to get a bit shaky.

 

Why just the 1st Company, and bearing in mind a young Chapter is unlikely to have inherited or given large amounts of tanks.

 

Point taken, i'll probably move them to an earlier founding in that case. As for the bit about the armour, the sections which list the scion's weapons specifically note them as being claws or blades. Ones more used to dealing with infantry and useful in targeting the weak points of power armour but lacking the strength to work against tanks.

The terminators were deployed due to their heavier armour and having less weakpoints to target.

In addition to this another note was that while more powerful weapons, such as power weapons and those mounted on tanks, worked against the scions bolters were mostly ineffective.

 

In retrospect it might have saved time and effort to just post the whole thing thus far than an abridged list.

 

So the Chapter gets scattered across time, which begs the question if some of them got sent into the past why didn't they try and prevent this, or at least warn he Imperium of the danger?

 

Oh not time, alternate realities for the 40Kverse. Think the Dornian Heresy for example.

[Arkangilos]

I don't understand the need for the alternate realities? And I don't get why the "using tanks" was such an issue? I mean, I remember the forums and posts, but I don't see how it really is a problem?

 

Also, I don't see why just because your chapter is young doesn't mean you can have many tanks. Predators, Rhinos, and Razorbacks have "basic" designs that can be built by the Astartes themselves.

 

So these 'Scions' have weaponry powerful enough to cause an Astarte in full battle plate to worry but if they're in a tank they are ok? Hmm, now the logic is starting to get a bit shaky.

 

So how does the logic get shaky? Tank armor is better than PA, so if something with an AP of 2 or 3 can go through it, the marine worries, and jumps in a tank with an AV of 12. That is much better than PA.

[Ferrus Manus]

So how does the logic get shaky? Tank armor is better than PA, so if something with an AP of 2 or 3 can go through it, the marine worries, and jumps in a tank with an AV of 12. That is much better than PA.

In terms of rules yes, your right. But fluff-wise power armour is supposed to be pretty solid. The only weapons I can think of that (fluff-wise) are definate kill shots against PA have the strength to damage a tank. I'm thinking of Plasma and Melta weaponry and things like Lascannons.

[Arkangilos]

So how does the logic get shaky? Tank armor is better than PA, so if something with an AP of 2 or 3 can go through it, the marine worries, and jumps in a tank with an AV of 12. That is much better than PA.

In terms of rules yes, your right. But fluff-wise power armour is supposed to be pretty solid. The only weapons I can think of that (fluff-wise) are definate kill shots against PA have the strength to damage a tank. I'm thinking of Plasma and Melta weaponry and things like Lascannons.

 

Ah, I see your point. What about Hellguns though? Weak strength but ap of 3.

 

However, I still think you would stand a better chance in a tank when facing those weapons than you would face when you aren't in a tank.

[Shinzaren]

The advantage that a tank gives Astartes isn't a greatly increased survivability, Land Raider aside; it is the ability to mount heavier firepower. A Predator mounts the firepower equivalent of a whole squad of Devastators and is much more mobile. Rhino isn't super great because it can protect the marines inside better than PA, but because it can quickly move them about the battlefield. This applies even more so to the Vindicator. While the dozer blade does actually provide much better protection than PA, its main advantage is the battle cannon.

 

 

However, I still think you would stand a better chance in a tank when facing those weapons than you would face when you aren't in a tank.

Yes and No. If you are in a 5 man squad and a Lascannon shot comes at you, the odds are in your favor that you won't be its target. There is a 80% chance it will strike another squad member. If you are in a tank with that same 5 man squad and the tank suffers a penetrating hit and strikes a fuel tank or ammo store, the odds of you dying increase astronomically. A space marine presents a (relatively) small target against weapons capable of slaying them outright. Tanks are much larger, and much more focused on, making it more likely for you to survive a confrontation with these weapons while on the ground. Why shoot a marine with a bolter or plasma gun when the tank right next to him is firing twin lascannons and heavy bolter sponsons?

[PyronusSouria]

I think the heavy vehicle thing makes sense. I would find it very hard to believe that PA is as solid as the front or sides of a Predator tank.

[Shinzaren]

I think the heavy vehicle thing makes sense. I would find it very hard to believe that PA is as solid as the front or sides of a Predator tank.

While this is true, they both share one similarity. The weapons needed to breach power armor outright are the same weapons used to breach a tank outright. Since the weapon is strong enough to do both jobs with equal ease, the tank no longer provides protection. The added armor is less useful against these weapons than the smaller size and agility of power armor. While a bolter shot can penetrate power armor in the right places, it is not a guarantee, and with luck, a bolter shot can also penetrate the weakest point in tank armor. However, Melta, Plasma, and large Las weapons all destroy power armor in one hit. They also destroy tank armor in one hit, making the tank less useful as protection and more useful for the amount of firepower it brings to bear.

[PyronusSouria]

I think the heavy vehicle thing makes sense. I would find it very hard to believe that PA is as solid as the front or sides of a Predator tank.

While this is true, they both share one similarity. The weapons needed to breach power armor outright are the same weapons used to breach a tank outright. Since the weapon is strong enough to do both jobs with equal ease, the tank no longer provides protection.

I can't see how a tank isn't providing extra protection. The author said it was because the Scions used blades or talons to penetrate the weaker mesh on a Space Marine's joints. Close the hatch on a Predator, suddenly the only openings are seams between armour plates that they cannot penetrate. The odds of stabbing a weak point on a marine are much higher than stabbing a weak point on a tank.

 

I like to think about it more as weight of fire, or in this case, weight of attacks. It's like how 30 Lasgun shots can bring down a few Marines, but will never bring down a Predator, or even a Rhino.

[Ace Debonair]

Surely the obvious answer would be some kind of biological weapon, then?

 

The automated defence guys are bright enough to use it on the humanoid space marines, but are completely thrown off by the appearance of the tanks.

 

That said, one battle/campaign does not a leaning towards one aspect of warfare FOREVER make - a lesson I've had drilled into me during my time here in Liber.

 

If the Chapter has a natural preference for using the vehicles as the key point of their attack where possible, sweet. This can just be the most obvious example of it paying dividends.

The more important thing, however, is why they use tanks so much. What sort of personality do these marines have? Do they just enjoy the explosive power that Predators and Vindicators can bring to a fight? Does the culture they come from have a sacred relic which is really the ruins of a pre-heresy Predator/Rhino/Other Astartes Vehicle?

 

I don't really like the alternate-reality-trawling idea, if I'm honest. It looks like a whole barrel of MISS waiting to be opened.

 

Quite aside from how your marines get the tech to do so (and learn how to use it) without the AdMech getting involved, how come they wouldn't bring back marines from a universe where the Heresy never happened, for instance? Or even bring back an alternate-universe Emperor from a universe where the Imperium was defeated but the Emperor survived?

 

It's a whole lot of problems, for sure.

[soddinnutter]

Quite aside from how your marines get the tech to do so (and learn how to use it) without the AdMech getting involved, how come they wouldn't bring back marines from a universe where the Heresy never happened, for instance? Or even bring back an alternate-universe Emperor from a universe where the Imperium was defeated but the Emperor survived?

 

It's a whole lot of problems, for sure.

 

Given that they have no control over the way in which the universe drifts around over any given area and the drifting seems to be at complete random, as stated in the previous thread to which there is a link, it can hardly be thought of as a cure-all super power. Especially when a squad of scouts goes for a walk one day and never comes back.

 

The home world would, of course, be a place of nightmares. nanite-clouds left over from the builders of the place or maybe the Dark Age flit from corridor to corridor on random trajectories repairing the tunnel walls and unmaking all those unlucky enough to get in their way. in some alternate realities the Nightmare Machine still lives, it's home reality having never been visited by the chapter. And there are ghosts, people who have been dead in this reality for years walking home after a work shift to find a world where they do not strictly speaking belong. Historical facts, from the point of view of those the world has corrupted, change by the day and in extreme cases hour. And if a pure human looks upon one that the world has corrupted then they seem to instantly wink out of existence, but it would be more correct to say that they swap places with a random counterpart somewhere else. The swaps and driftings are generally localized to the 'close' universes where only mild differences occur. But sometimes they are from further afield and Beyond The Places We Know.

[Ace Debonair]

Given that they have no control over the way in which the universe drifts around over any given area and the drifting seems to be at complete random, as stated in the previous thread to which there is a link, it can hardly be thought of as a cure-all super power. Especially when a squad of scouts goes for a walk one day and never comes back.

 

Just checking. It doesn't say that in the original post, you see. ^_^

 

The other obvious question is: If it's so dangerous, why do they bother trying to find the vanished marines, rather than simply replacing them with new ones?

 

The home world would, of course, be a place of nightmares. nanite-clouds left over from the builders of the place or maybe the Dark Age flit from corridor to corridor on random trajectories repairing the tunnel walls and unmaking all those unlucky enough to get in their way. in some alternate realities the Nightmare Machine still lives, it's home reality having never been visited by the chapter. And there are ghosts, people who have been dead in this reality for years walking home after a work shift to find a world where they do not strictly speaking belong. Historical facts, from the point of view of those the world has corrupted, change by the day and in extreme cases hour. And if a pure human looks upon one that the world has corrupted then they seem to instantly wink out of existence, but it would be more correct to say that they swap places with a random counterpart somewhere else. The swaps and driftings are generally localized to the 'close' universes where only mild differences occur. But sometimes they are from further afield and Beyond The Places We Know.

Sounds pretty crazy. :rolleyes:

How do the Chapter keep the Inquisition's / AdMech's eyes off their Homeworld, though?

 

I have the sneaking suspicion that the Inquisition would either abuse the knowledge (alternate universe Emperor, etc) or exterminatus the planet. And the AdMech would probably be awefully interested in the unusual tech there, or else see it as an abomination and want it destroyed.

 

Bear in mind - I'm not nay-saying the idea, I'm just drawing your attention to potential problems of it's implementation before the real write-up starts. ^_^