Psyriflman Dready or Vindicare

[91Viper]

What is more effective?

 

a) A Vindicare with turbo rounds or a Psyrifleman Dread at taking out armor; and

:tu: A Vindicare with turbo rounds or a Psyrifleman Dread for killing MEQ?

 

I see many lists with two Psyriflemen and not one with two Vindicares... was wondering if a mathhammer would help solve the offensive question.

 

You then have to ask yourself which will live longer

[Deathlok33]

Not sure how to help, just noticed you can't bring 2 of the same assassin. Thats all i have to add =)

[Something Wycked]

Psyfleman against AV12:

Shots: 4

Hit Chance: 88.89%

Hits: 3.556

Glancing Chance: 16.67%

Glancing Hits: 0.593

Penetration Chance: 33.33%

Penetration Hits: 1.185

Shaken: 0.494

Stunned: 0.296

Weapon Destroyed: 0.296

Immobilized: 0.296

Wrecked: 0.198

Explodes: 0.198

 

Psyfleman against AV14:

Shots: 4

Hit Chance: 88.89%

Hits: 3.556

Glancing Chance: 16.67%

Glancing Hits: 0.593

Penetration Chance: 0%

Penetration Hits: 0

Shaken: 0.296

Stunned: 0.099

Weapon Destroyed: 0.099

Immobilized: 0.099

Wrecked: 0

Explodes: 0

 

The Psyfleman is GREAT against AV 12 and lower; the Vindicare is GREAT against high AV values.

 

You wouldn't use the Turbo Penetrator for killing MEQ unless it was a character without Invuln; you'd use Hellfire for the 2+ to wound normal MEQ, or Shield Breaker if it was a character with Invuln.

 

The Psyfleman stands a good chance of inflicting four wounds, but the MEQ stands a good chance of making all of those armor saves. The Vindicare is almost guaranteed to kill a non-character MEQ with one shot, but that is the maximum potential- one death.

 

Said another way, the Psyfleman will have a low average of deaths inflicted, while the Vindicare will have a steady average of about 1 per shot.

[itsuperslug]

Vindicare - can kill most armour in 1 shot OR kill 1 guy

Psyfleman - can kill most transports (AV 12 or lower) OR up to 4 guys

 

Vindi for heavy tanks (better pen), psyfleman for MEQ (more shots)

 

I go to battle with 1 of each

[Drachnon]

Lets see if I can do the math for the Vindicare:

DISCLAIMER:

Rending is not part of these calculations as I have no clue how to add it to this formula.

 

AV12

To hit: 91.67%

 

Damage chances:

Fail: 5.40%

Glancing chance: 4.32%

Penetrate chance: 90.28%

 

Results if glance: (-2 from glance +1 from ap1)

Shaken: 33.33%

Stunned: 16.67%

Weapon Destroyed: 16.67%

Immobilized: 16.67%

Wrecked: 16.67%

Explodes: 0%

 

Results if penetrate: (+1 from ap1)

Shaken: 0%

Stunned: 16.67%

Weapon Destroyed: 16.67%

Immobilized: 16.67%

Wrecked: 16.67%

Explodes: 33.33%

 

Moar! calculations:

1(shots)*0.9167(to hit)*0.0432(glance)* result chances=

Shaken: 0,0132

Stunned: 0,0066

Weapon Destroyed: 0,0066

Immobilized: 0,0066

Wrecked: 0,0066

Explodes: 0.000

 

1(shots)*0.9167(to hit)*0.9028(glance)* result chances=

Shaken: 0,0000

Stunned: 0,1379

Weapon Destroyed: 0,1379

Immobilized: 0,1379

Wrecked: 0,1379

Explodes: 0,2759

 

After adding results together:

Shaken: 0,0132

Stunned: 0,1445

Weapon Destroyed: 0,1445

Immobilized: 0,1445

Wrecked: 0,1445

Explodes: 0,2759

 

Conclusion:

If my math is correct the vindicare is still slightly better at destroying (explodes + wrecked results) AV12 targets when compared to Something Wycked's calculation.

 

I might do AV14 later however results might be less acurate here as rending is more beneficial against such targets (against AV12 the chance of the rending being wasted is pretty large)

 

EDIT:

When looking at averages I can say that rending increases the result by 0.667 per die rolled which is 2.67 for 4 dice.

[Toasterfree]

Comparing apples to fruit flys. Dreads are a different beast. You can take them for weight of fire, may not always kill 4 guys, may not kill any, but s8 kills obliterators dead if they fail hence weight of fire. Can the vindicating kill one dead? No. Ok then. Can a dread wreck av14? No, but it can :lol: up some av13. Will you always face a toon with an invulnerable? Yes so the vindi has a role there as well as sniping out sgts and heavy weapons or special ccw etc, can a dread? No.

 

Best viable option? Take one of each and double on the dread for weight of fire. Then who cares about the mathhammer, you have a role for each unit that it will excell at, and we are asking this to increase our post count.

 

Just sayin

[thade]

You did ask specifically for mathhammer. Now that that is covered...

 

These two models serve different purposes. Psi-riflemen Dreads are intended to pop light armor/APCs at extreme range (36-48") while a Vindicare gets one shot at 36" He's got awesome Armor pen, but only one roll on that damage table. Can he pop that armor? Likely. Should he? In my mind he's got a much better usage: I can allocate his wounds.

 

What can the Vindicare do that the Rifleman cannot? He can pick off annoying buried Power Fists/Klaws so your knights can charge in without a care in the world. 2+ armor saves go a long way. :P

 

If I did field a Vindicare, that is what I'd use him for: to pick off buried PWs for my Paladins. The fact he can feasibly kill a Land Raider pilot is just a (very nice) bonus.

[chaplainmeliadus]

but s8 kills obliterators dead if they fail hence weight of fire. Can the vindicating kill one dead? No.

 

Actually, doesn't an Obliterator only have 2 wounds? And the turbo-penetrator doubles wounds, so if it fails its invun, it will be dead, yes?

[Liba terminatus]

but s8 kills obliterators dead if they fail hence weight of fire. Can the vindicating kill one dead? No.

 

Actually, doesn't an Obliterator only have 2 wounds? And the turbo-penetrator doubles wounds, so if it fails its invun, it will be dead, yes?

 

Yup

 

I have to say though the vindicare is one hell of a bullet magnet. But hey haters gonna hate when they see what he can do

[breng77]

As far as shooting at MEQ the Vindicare kills one guy 76% of the time (assuming no invul). The dread kills one guy 98% of the time (He averages around 3 wounds, on average marines will fail 1). The dread does have more of a range 76% of the time the Vindicare kills one guy the other 24% of the time he kills no one (it is important to not he kills one guy of your choice). The dread does have the chance to kill no one, or he could kill 4 guys, or any where in between (it is not all that likely as all the other possibilities fit into the last 2%, for example the dread will miss all four shots 0.01% of the time).

 

Just for fun lets look at the Obilterator Example, the Vindicare kills 1 about 30.6% of the time, the Dread kills one about 49.3% of the time. Again the Vindi can pick out a 2 wound IC, or the apothecary in a paladin squad, but the dread could potentially kill all 3 obliterators.

 

I also see people rave about the invul save removing ammo (its nice sure, against 1 wound models with good invul saves, against other models with more wounds it is nice but it would take 2 turns to reliably take down said model) the dread does not ignore MEQ armor saves so Invul saves are irrelevant in this comparison.

 

Against infantry the story is this, Vindicare is nice because you get to pick out your targets, but the best he will ever do is Kill 7 models in a game. The dread has a much higher chance to kill infantry (possibly up to 28 models), but simply through straight allocation.

[Brother Nihm]

but s8 kills obliterators dead if they fail hence weight of fire. Can the vindicating kill one dead? No.

 

Actually, doesn't an Obliterator only have 2 wounds? And the turbo-penetrator doubles wounds, so if it fails its invun, it will be dead, yes?

 

Yup

 

I have to say though the vindicare is one hell of a bullet magnet. But hey haters gonna hate when they see what he can do

Yeah he is,

 

But I'd love to have an enemy Vindicare or Psyfle-dread fire on my Oblits, instead of my Rhinos. :P

[Raus]

The dread kills one guy 98% of the time (He averages around 3 wounds, on average marines will fail 1).

 

On average a marine will fail 1 save, yes, but that does not mean the dreadnought kills a marine 98% of the time. You need to consider that the average here takes into account all the times the marine player rolls more than 1 dice under 3.

 

3 dices give 216 (6^3) combinations.

 

 

I don't have time to count them, but as you can see, the combinations not containing any 1 or 2 is considerably higher than 2% (Which would be a total of 4-5)

 

http://homepage.smc.edu/mcgraw_colleen/mat...%20roulette.pdf

[thade]

If the seven models that the Vindicare kills are all power fists, I say that's a win right there. :)

[breng77]

On average a marine will fail 1 save, yes, but that does not mean the dreadnought kills a marine 98% of the time. You need to consider that the average here takes into account all the times the marine player rolls more than 1 dice under 3.

 

This is true but you also need to consider that you are generally shooting at more than 1 marine in which case those additional dice also kill marines so you need to look at the number of results in which no 1s or 2s are rolled, so while it is true that sometimes you will not kill any marines some times (8/216) you will kill 3, and sometimes you will kill 2. There are about 30% of combinations in which no marines die (64/216), equally though there are Which means that 152/216 times at least 1 marine will die, and 53/216 times that more than one marine will die. (On 3 dice)

 

So it is

30% do nothing

70% kill at least 1 marine

which breaks down to

3.7% kills 3

20.8% kills 2

45.8% kills 1.

 

And none of that takes into account the fact that sometimes 4 shots from the autocannon will hit, so you cannot do the math for 3 dice.

THe autocannon does .98 wounds to a marine, taking all factors into account which in effect means he will die 98% of the time.

=4*(2/3+1/3*2/3)*5/6*1/3=.98

 

If you want to go for the closest math you can get you would need to look at the chances of each shot not wounding a marine (75.3%) then calculated that 32% of the time none of them will casue a wound, which leaves you with 68% of the time at least one marine will die. Much lower than my initial dirty math, but this does not take into account killing multiple marines as I indicated above.

[Morollan]

If the seven models that the Vindicare kills are all power fists, I say that's a win right there. :rolleyes:

 

Or Sanguinary Priests, Commissars, Librarians etc, etc.

 

Vindicare is bloody useful to have. I'm practising for a doubles tournament at the moment and my teammate has one in his list. Blew up a minimum of 1 Land Raider every game as long as we got first turn. So that's nearly double his points cost back and, more importantly, a LR full of scoring infantry stuck out of position and having to footslog to objectives.

 

Psiflemen dreads are also nice but we tend to face a lot of AV14 locally so the assassin is generally preferred. The two are very different though and not really worth comparing directly.

[thade]

Psiflemen dreads are also nice but we tend to face a lot of AV14 locally so the assassin is generally preferred. The two are very different though and not really worth comparing directly.

You can only take one Vindicare anyway...so why not also bring a Rifleman or two?

[Morollan]

Psiflemen dreads are also nice but we tend to face a lot of AV14 locally so the assassin is generally preferred. The two are very different though and not really worth comparing directly.

You can only take one Vindicare anyway...so why not also bring a Rifleman or two?

 

Points. It's only 875 points each so even one of these models is a significant chunk of the army.

[confused_gordy]

the main problem for the vindicare is that in 1/3 of his missions he wont be shooting till turn 2 (dawn or war), and only has 6+1d6 inches of board space he can get to before he starts shooting, to take advantage of cover. This majorly limits his options as to where he can be placed on the board, and where he can shoot things (as he only has a 36 inch range).

 

the improved range, and moving while firing mitigates this for the dread, who is also less reliant on cover.

 

(I assume that we are all packing a rhino or razor with search lights, or something similar in our lists to mitigate the turn 1 night fight).

 

In addition to this, the dread is considerably more resilient than the vindicate (both die to high strength wounds/penetration 1/3 of the time, but the dread is immune to low strength), and is even more resilient in cover.

 

Finally the dread is less effected by line of sight, as it has the amazing ability to move and fire, which the vinidicare doesn't possess (at ranges greater than 18")

[breng77]

While that is true remember that if positioning coming from your board edge is a problem you could outflank (and cost another turn of shooting.

[Drachnon]

I've had great fun in lending my Vindicare a rhino of a strike squad. The idea is easy, the strike squad outside of the rhino start on the board (2 troops choices), have the rhino about 6" to 7" from the board edge, in your first turn the Vindicare jumps into the rhino which then drives of 12" preferably stopping somewhere within 2" of cover.

From turn 2 onwards you can shoot from the harch, if the vehicle gets destroyed/wrecked you can either stick in the left wreckage/crater or jump into the cover. This gives you about 18" deployment, with the fortitude power you generally don't have to fear crew shaken and stunned results at all.

[biglou666]

I do like both the psyfleman dread, and the vindicare, they both have excellent practical use. the psyfleman is S8 insta killing most sm characters, messing up av <12, and thinning out hordes woth a decent amount of shots. the vindicare is massively reliable, his bs 8 and variety of ammmunition leding him much variety. the turbo penetrator round is amazing, in one game he took out all 3 of my oppenet's stormravens, in the space of 3 turns! if it was a straight up choice against an unknown opponent, then id have to go for the vindicare. his ability to take out vehicles alone makes him more than worth the points outlay :D

however, in most games, both units end up in my list somewhere. :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You kinda need both. Vindicare brings so much utility, and your only real hope of stopping a Landraider before it gets too close (you'll rarely catch it within psycannon range before it's disembarking Stormhammers into your face). PsyDreads can reliably damage anything not AV13/14, and if there are no armoured targets they can do reliably damage to infantry as well.