Can CC oriented Marines be viable?

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Hi everyone, I am trying to decide what my first army is going to be after my being introduced to the game. I've been lurking for a bit and in general have seen an edge toward shooting style forces and was wondering what the best army for CC is and if CC oriented PA force is viable in the the current game of Long Fangs, Typhoons, Suicide melta squads, etc.

[Olis]

I'd say so - Black Templars with Rhino's, Razorbacks and Vindicators seem to work quite well at my club. (But then the bloke that plays them has always been a bit of a spawny git so I'm told.) :tu:

[Something Wycked]

PA-armored CC is absolutely viable in today's 40k. You still should bring along a semi-balanced force due to the synergy- shooting units open transports, leaving the contents vulnerable for your CC units to destroy. As well as generally protecting your CC units from getting shot up by the opponent's firepower.

 

There isn't really a "best" army for CC, though. It really comes down to your play style.

 

Got a thing for Jump Infantry? Go Blood Angels.

Like the wild-man look and massive riding wolves? Go Space Wolves.

Enjoy force weapon assault with a side of shooting? Check out Grey Knights.

Do you like small, super-effective units? Check out... I forget who came up with it originally, but I know Captain Idaho runs it- Ultramarines and their all-Artificer Armor, all-Power Weapon Honor Guard. And cheap Assault Terminators with roomy Land Raiders. (And Shrike/Raven Guard in the same book)

 

Said simply, every codex can get it done- they just all get it done in different ways. If you can tell us what sort of play style appeals to you, we might be able to point you in the right direction :tu:

[Brother Captain Andrew]

PA-armored CC is absolutely viable in today's 40k. You still should bring along a semi-balanced force due to the synergy- shooting units open transports, leaving the contents vulnerable for your CC units to destroy. As well as generally protecting your CC units from getting shot up by the opponent's firepower.

 

There isn't really a "best" army for CC, though. It really comes down to your play style.

 

Got a thing for Jump Infantry? Go Blood Angels.

Like the wild-man look and massive riding wolves? Go Space Wolves.

Enjoy force weapon assault with a side of shooting? Check out Grey Knights.

Do you like small, super-effective units? Check out... I forget who came up with it originally, but I know Captain Idaho runs it- Ultramarines and their all-Artificer Armor, all-Power Weapon Honor Guard. And cheap Assault Terminators with roomy Land Raiders. (And Shrike/Raven Guard in the same book)

 

Said simply, every codex can get it done- they just all get it done in different ways. If you can tell us what sort of play style appeals to you, we might be able to point you in the right direction :cuss

 

Thanks, good to know I've got options. :D I have a couple of big interests. I really like drop pods, Dreadnoughts, and Assault Terminators. Looking at the codecies I really like the Wolves HQ customization, but the riding wolves turns me off. The Black Templars look great but I'm not a big fan of the initiate/neophytes mixed squads both for the aesthetics and the $$$ to get all the models.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks, good to know I've got options. :D I have a couple of big interests. I really like drop pods, Dreadnoughts, and Assault Terminators. Looking at the codecies I really like the Wolves HQ customization, but the riding wolves turns me off. The Black Templars look great but I'm not a big fan of the initiate/neophytes mixed squads both for the aesthetics and the $$$ to get all the models.

 

hmm sounds like the generic space marine dex would be a good place to start.

to echo S-W, anything is doable in this game, there are plenty of good articles available in the tactica section

[Marine Errant]

You haven't actually said you want loyalists so, Emperor forgive me for this, but have you considered World Eaters? Khârn is far and away the most colourful CC character in the game and the bezerkers are lethal in CC. That aside, standard marines are perfectly capable of running a CC oriented force but I would reiterate the others and suggest that you take at least a little bit of shootiness to balance out the force :D

[Mac the knife]

Drop Pod assault, extreme customization, dreadnoughts and assault terminators? well my mangy friend you speak of the Vlka Fenryka or Space Wolves. There are tons of CC oriented items in the wolf dex and you don't have to take the thunderwolf cavalry (actually GW has only released one model for them at this point which is a pain to paint or customize so many of us have refrained from taking them.) Just because something's in the codex doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

best of luck choosing an army once you do start a thread in the WIP section so we can watch a new army being created to strengthen the might of the Imperium =D.

 

For Russ! For the Allfather!

[Arnil]

Well I have seen a viable imperial guard close combat army. So I think marines have a chance. Even bog standard tactical squad can use a Bolter and chain sword for close combat and get in a 10 man squad gets 31 attacks on the charge I think. 9 men with 3 attacks each and 4 from the sergeant. Right?

[thade]

When I started out it was with the vanilla Dex and my goal from the start was a melee-centric army. As such I'd field at least one flying assault squad and a Vanguard (tooled-up) at all times.

 

Over time (and many, many losses) I learned that - while marines are durable in assault - they are far less than invincible. Charging in ahead and alone was like giving my opponent free kill points. I ended up running a pure rapid-fire, shooty list with some ML devs and I started winning...but I missed my Vanguard. And I stopped playing.

 

The club I was into urged me to pick up the new BA dex when it came out, assuring me I could use it to run my army the way I'd tried to before. So, I did. I have imposed some pretty severe restrictions on myself. I use nothing that is BA-centric - no Storm Ravens, no Sanguinary Guard, no Death Company - but I do take advantage of Apothecaries (Sanguine Priests without the gusto), Fast Rhino chassis, and once in a while a Mephiston counts-as. Essentially it helps my army to be unique (something between vanilla and BA) and fits my play style nicely. I can move fast at need but tend to react as opposed to rushing in, and I field Devs and Tactical Squads in great supply. I'm considering a DS list...which will feature more Drop Pods (with Tacticals and Dreads) than anything else .It'll give me a chance to use my Iron Clad model. :mellow:

 

So, that was a long story. The short version: a CC army in the vanilla dex is hard. It's easier in BA thanks to Sanguine Priests/Apothecaries and fast Rhinos: easier to get around and support one another, and most of your army will have FNP which in a tarpit full of Orks can be a life saver. Anyway, it's hard but not impossible. Just means you can't do it at lower point values. :cuss

[Something Wycked]

I really like drop pods, Dreadnoughts, and Assault Terminators.

That leaves you with about 3 options- Chaos gets excluded because they don't have Drop Pods.

 

As said by someone else, Space Wolves have all three of those things. However, their Assault Terminators are over-costed compared to a couple other codices- if I remember right, to get a Thunderhammer + Storm Shield Terminator, it costs the Space Wolves 63 points- compared to 45 for Blood Angels and 40 for Codex: Space Marines.

 

C:SM has Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts, and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, and the cheapest TH+SS Terminators.

 

Codex: Blood Angels has Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Librarian Dreadnoughts, and Death Company Dreadnoughts, and has the same cost as C:SM's Lightning Claw Terminators- paying just 5 points for the TH+SS upgrade per model.

 

Just based on the types of units you like, C:BA has more variety and arguably more effectiveness, so I'd recommend that one to you :)

[Brother Captain Andrew]

Thanks for everybody's help. I think I'm going to go with using the Black Templar Codex, but can guarantee that I will eventually be starting a few armies. I've been reading the books and am hooked on the fluff of most of the chapters already.

[DarkGuard]

Well I have seen a viable imperial guard close combat army. So I think marines have a chance. Even bog standard tactical squad can use a Bolter and chain sword for close combat and get in a 10 man squad gets 31 attacks on the charge I think. 9 men with 3 attacks each and 4 from the sergeant. Right?

 

Err, what? Are you talking about Codex Marines here or Grey Hunters? Bog standard Tactical Marines from C:SM, C:DA and C:BA all come standard with boltgun, bolt pistol, power armour and grenades. No CCW, and no option for one either apart from the Sergeant. All a bog standard Tactical squad can get on the charge is 18 from the normal guys and a max of 4 from the Sergeant, for 22. The only way for them to get 3 attacks each is for Pedro to be around, and your Sergeant will probably have 4 still as he'd have a power fist then.

 

In short, C:SM is a close range shooty force, although it can be long range if needed. There are some assault options in there, with Command squads, Honour Guard, Assault squads, Vanguard squads and Assault Terminators. However, the first two require a specific HQ to be taken, unlike Blood Angels, while Assault squads lack punch, Vanguard can get expensive if you're not careful, and Assault Terminators not only require a 250pt transport but are also very boring.

 

Oh, wait a minute, CC Scouts. Now they're all right, about the same assault power as Assault squads, but scoring and cheaper, although more fragile. And not as mobile to be fair, although Shrike can help.

 

So if you want to run a melee army you are better off with one of the other Dex's. C:DA allows a Terminator army, which includes Assault Terminators with cyclones! Or C:BA, with multiple squads of scoring Assault squads, Sang Guard, Terminators and more accurate DSing Vanguard and everything. Plus blood talons and Dreads and Storm Ravens, not to mention Death Company. Or C:SW where you have Grey Hunters, Thunderwolves, Wolf Guard etc. And of course C:BT, with massive squads of Marines all with preferred enemy.

 

Personally, out of all of them I'd pick C:BA or C:BT if you want melee. C:DA is pretty much just Terminators, while C:SW is more geared for flexibility IMO. You've got more combat options or just more numbers with C:BA and C:BT, plus speed thanks to fast vehicles, jump packs and righteous zeal movements.

 

But in the end, pick an army you'll continue to paint and collect.

[thade]

But in the end, pick an army you'll continue to paint and collect.

This magic army he speaks of - the one you like the look of the best - is the one you'll be more forgiving of when it loses, and thus will play with it more and learn with it. It's the army you will first get truly good with.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'd say so - Black Templars with Rhino's, Razorbacks and Vindicators seem to work quite well at my club. (But then the bloke that plays them has always been a bit of a spawny git so I'm told.) :lol:

 

What means spawny?

 

Thanks for everybody's help. I think I'm going to go with using the Black Templar Codex, but can guarantee that I will eventually be starting a few armies. I've been reading the books and am hooked on the fluff of most of the chapters already.

 

Hmmm. Please come and check out Templars in our forum.

 

I'm not sure Templars will actually give you the mêlée clout you are looking for.

 

Wolves and Bloods and GK all have far more goodies than Templars, at the moment. I believe we will be when our Dex comes, but until then, be warned - Templars have to play shooty to play with the big boys nowadays.

 

Yes Furious Charge Re-roll to hit Claw~ or HammerNators are the best in the game, and our Dakkantors are superior to other shooty Terms.

 

But come and check us out, and we will all chip in.

 

If we can wait a year or two without having your ideal force, I think you'll enjoy committing to Templars ^_^

[thade]

If we can wait a year or two without having your ideal force, I think you'll enjoy committing to Templars :P

I look forward to the BT update; I may regreat repainting my marines such that they're no longer mistaken for them. :o

[Laughingdagger]

If you play with Tybarros as your HQ (from imperial armor 10) any marine model with a boltgun in your army can exchange it for a CCW, and viola, vanilla all cc army.

[DarkGuard]

If you play with Tybarros as your HQ (from imperial armor 10) any marine model with a boltgun in your army can exchange it for a CCW, and viola, vanilla all cc army.

 

But do remember that not all players have access to IA, or are allowed to use it at their LGS.

[Ming]

A CC oriented SM army? You Betcha! (Staying with what I think I know) - Built from these assault-oriented choices:

 

Kantor or Shrike or Kahn (Kantor is preferred due to inspiration and stubborn)

Librarian, TDA, SS (to be well rounded and support assault on armies with psychers or invulnerable saves)

Honor Guard (optional - you unlock with Kantor)

(1+) Assault Terminator Squad(s), Redeemer or Crusader Landraider as transport

Dreadnaught(s) (the robot version of an assault terminator - DCCW, HF, MM, whatever your assault favorite is), Pod(s)

2+ Scout Squads - CC load outs, speeder transport (only meltagun or flamer special weapons besides bolt pistols, combat blades, etc, homers)

2+ Assault Marine Squads (as you want them, 5 or 10 man), jump packs typically

Vanguard (the other FA CC unit, 5+ models, jump packs or another Landraider)

1 Squadron Speeder Typhoon or assault-tooled bike squad (if you don't like Vanguard)

Vindicators or Predators to round out the points.

[Kay]

Im pretty surprised that no One has come up with this yet:

 

He likes CC, dreadnoughts and pods... Crystal clear:

 

Master of the forge

6x ironclad dreadnoughts

6x drop pods

 

2x5 man scout teams with a PF and meltabombs

2x HF land speeder storm

 

2x10 man CC scouts

 

That's about 1900 points so u can add some glitter such as HBs for the scouts and a conversion Beamer...

[Laughingdagger]

Shrike, 10 man vanguard unit all with jump packs and dual lightning claws with some melta bombs sprinkled throughout, and a jump chaplain.

 

I shiver at the potential

[thade]

You know...someone mentioned a CC guard army, and the very thought of it is terrifying to me.

 

I've fought one 2000 points no-tanks foot-slogging guard list. It's a LOT of bodies. Like, an insane number of bodies. I'll grant you, Mephiston had a field day wrecking Guard units, but I only barely won that game (it was objectives) and wasn't able to kill them all. Still, given the sheer number of attacks that a guard unit could bring on a marine unit, I wouldn't discount it. It's not mathhammer-hard but it's funny as all get out...and I wouldn't doubt that it could be effective.

 

It's a great deal of painting though.