rodgambit Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 GW has put out 2 GK FAQ's and a few others. Has this issue been addressed yet? Fluff wise+intent seems that a Hunter WP or Battle Leader would go with our scouts OBEL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 They answered this one a while ago : Q. Can an Independent Character that has joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? (p27)A. No, unless he has the Saga of the Hunter, or another special rule, which allows him to outflank. Behind Enemy Lines: If a Wolf Scout unit makes use of its ability to outflank, roll a dice when it enters play to soo where it enters play to see where it may be deployed. So, yeah, you're good to go. So long as your IC has Saga of the Hunter and is joined to the Wolf Scout unit he gets to ride along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 The issue is that people argue there is a difference between outflanking and OBEL and I just read the INAT FAQ, which, states that we can not OBEL. I really wish GW would just clear this up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 OBEL does not work without Outflank. Outflank works just fine without OBEL. So the Wolf Scout unit Outflanks just fine, but with the OBEL caveat that modifiying the roll. The rule even states it, "when the Wolf Scout unit OUTFLANKS....," so you know the unit is Outflanking with the only chamge being where they arrive on the table with what roll is made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I've found that there are two types of INAT FAQ responses : 1. Copy/Paste responses of GW FAQs. 2. Wrong responses. The Scout squad has Outflank. An IC with Saga of the Hunter has Outflank. An IC joined to a Scout squad is a single unit for all purposes except a few (ie. combat in the Assault phase). The unit is using it's ability to Outflank which triggers BEL, modifying the outcome of the die roll for the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 maybe we should right some letters to GW to get this and any other outstanding issues sorted. the BA forum did something like that when the vindicator issue came up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Danvers Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I never understand why people argue so much about this. Seems perfectly simple to me: Scouts have Outflank, IC with SotH can gains Outflank and they become one unit. Then when they outflank, the unit has to roll on the table provided on the Wolf Scouts page as it states thats you *have* (there's no option to ignore it, as it states that the effect happens when the unit outflanks) to roll when Wolf Scouts outflank. The Saga just gives the IC the ability to outflank and doesn't effect the scouts OBEL rule at all. OBEL and Outflank are not two effects that are seperate; OBEL occurs when the Outflank rule is used. It modifies the Outflank rule effect, providing a new set of variables. People that argue that you use one or the other aren't reading it properly. dswanick put it a lot better than I did :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The Scout squad has Outflank. An IC with Saga of the Hunter has Outflank. An IC joined to a Scout squad is a single unit for all purposes except a few (ie. combat in the Assault phase). The unit is using it's ability to Outflank which triggers BEL, modifying the outcome of the die roll for the unit. I don't know if this is the right answer, but it's the most convincing "walkthrough" of the answer I've seen. I'm sold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't disagree with your logic, however, when the INAT rules otherwise and tournies use that set of rules and local shops use them it can be very difficult to convince people otherwise unless GW just addresses the issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't disagree with your logic, however, when the INAT rules otherwise and tournies use that set of rules and local shops use them it can be very difficult to convince people otherwise unless GW just addresses the issue. I think this is one of the worst things about our hobby, the only way to get to the bottom of these sorts of things withouth it specifically being answered in a FAQ is to have a blow-by-blow account with page/paragraph references to detail why you think it is what it is... and yet this is considered beardy, impolite or inappropriate. But we're supposed to accept a mumbled "it doesn't work like that" as a counterinterpretation of the rules... And i'm not meaning for this particular case specifically, just for any case where there's confusion. If people would get more into the rules, they'd get more out of the game :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Agreed. My usual response is "oh, I thought we were playing a game of Warhammer 40,000, not INAT 40K". And if it's a tournament - "Sorry, you won't be getting my entry fee because I expect to be allowed to play by the rules". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The Scout squad has Outflank. An IC with Saga of the Hunter has Outflank. An IC joined to a Scout squad is a single unit for all purposes except a few (ie. combat in the Assault phase). The unit is using it's ability to Outflank which triggers BEL, modifying the outcome of the die roll for the unit. I don't know if this is the right answer, but it's the most convincing "walkthrough" of the answer I've seen. I'm sold. Sold because there was no discussion of BRB p.48 and the loss of a unit's special rules when joined by an IC w/o the same rule. If scouts lose OBEL when joined then the walkthrough explanation fails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The Scout squad has Outflank. An IC with Saga of the Hunter has Outflank. An IC joined to a Scout squad is a single unit for all purposes except a few (ie. combat in the Assault phase). The unit is using it's ability to Outflank which triggers BEL, modifying the outcome of the die roll for the unit. I don't know if this is the right answer, but it's the most convincing "walkthrough" of the answer I've seen. I'm sold. Sold because there was no discussion of BRB p.48 and the loss of a unit's special rules when joined by an IC w/o the same rule. If scouts lose OBEL when joined then the walkthrough explanation fails. If that were the case then Long Fangs would loose their Fire Control special rule, Blood Claws would loose their Berserk Charge special rule, and Grey Knights would loose their Brotherhood of Psychers special rule just to name a few. Does anyone argue this to be true? Especially since Fire Control, at least, has been clearly FAQd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Furthermore when an ability like Berserk Charge does not extend to an IC, it is clearly stated. INAT is alright, but they do make some far out calls sometimes that seemed more based on personal bias or desire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexo Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Sold because there was no discussion of BRB p.48 and the loss of a unit's special rules when joined by an IC w/o the same rule. If scouts lose OBEL when joined then the walkthrough explanation fails. Page 48 don't state the unit loses the speciel rule, it states that the IC don't gain it. The unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the charater's special rules are not conferred upon the unit So the Wolf Scout unit still have the OBEL rule and the IC is part of the unit. The OBEL rule states "If a wolf scout unit make use of it abillity to outflank" so as long the IC has outflank the unit can use OBEL is the IC don't have outflank the unit loses outflank and therefore can't use OBEL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexo Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 After reading the Universiel Speciel rules section in the BRB (Page 74) it seams to me that the Scout unit loses there "Infliltrate" and "Scout" rule then a IC with out them is joining them. Saga of the hunter, conferres "Abillity to Outflank" to the IC and not "Scout" or "Infiltrate" If the Wolf Scout unit don't have "Scout" or "Infiltrate" it neder has the abillty to outflank and therefor can't use the OBEL rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiguriusX Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 After reading the Universiel Speciel rules section in the BRB (Page 74) it seams to me that the Scout unit loses there "Infliltrate" and "Scout" rule then a IC with out them is joining them. Saga of the hunter, conferres "Abillity to Outflank" to the IC and not "Scout" or "Infiltrate" If the Wolf Scout unit don't have "Scout" or "Infiltrate" it neder has the abillty to outflank and therefor can't use the OBEL rule. The entire thing is tricky...the next step in that logic is relying on the SW FAQ to outflank and takes you in a loop. I have to agree Dswanick's "unit" argument is the best I have heard and has me 55/45 in favor of OBEL. I just presented you with the difficulty in getting all your opponents to simply nod in agreement. There will be people hesitant to allow your IC to walk up behind them with the current rules as written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 After reading the Universiel Speciel rules section in the BRB (Page 74) it seams to me that the Scout unit loses there "Infliltrate" and "Scout" rule then a IC with out them is joining them. Saga of the hunter, conferres "Abillity to Outflank" to the IC and not "Scout" or "Infiltrate" If the Wolf Scout unit don't have "Scout" or "Infiltrate" it neder has the abillty to outflank and therefor can't use the OBEL rule. Scout confers outflank which is not a USR. Losing Scout when an IC with Saga of the Hunter joins the Wolf Scout unit does also lose the ability to outflank as it is not a USR but a type of deployment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 After reading the Universiel Speciel rules section in the BRB (Page 74) it seams to me that the Scout unit loses there "Infliltrate" and "Scout" rule then a IC with out them is joining them. Saga of the hunter, conferres "Abillity to Outflank" to the IC and not "Scout" or "Infiltrate" If the Wolf Scout unit don't have "Scout" or "Infiltrate" it neder has the abillty to outflank and therefor can't use the OBEL rule. Which is probably why GW felt the need to issue the FAQ stating that an IC with SotH joining a Scout unit allows the combined IC/Scout unit to Outflank. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I think one way to look at it (In no way saying this is the right way) is the Movement Speed rules. You have a unit that moves 12". So, when an Infantry model joins that unit, they MUST move at his rate because he simply can't move any quicker. Now, apply similar logic to Outflank and BEL and SotH: You have an Outflanking unit. This is joined by a basic 100pt. Wolf Lord. They MUST move at his rate (ie. no Outflank) because he simply can't. However, you just decided to take that Power Fist out of that Grey Hunter unit, and give him SotH; now, HE can move at THEIR rate, because he has Outflank. So, he can Outflank, yes? Okay, that's established. BEL is a modification of Outflank. The rule states the UNIT can BEL, and since the Character is considered a part of the unit BEFORE the rule is played, he can do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2823849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Danvers Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 BEL is a modification of Outflank. The rule states the UNIT can BEL, and since the Character is considered a part of the unit BEFORE the rule is played, he can do it. This hit the nail on the head for me. It's like the whole 'If I take a WG in a 9-man GH unit, I get a 2nd special weapon right?' arguement, as the pack leader rule doesn't do anything until the models are actually on the board. The BEL effect happens once the unit hits play through outflank, it's not something that does anything before that point. SotH allows the IC to outflank, so he outflanks with the scout squad, THEN the BEL effect goes into effect when they enter the board and you roll according to the BEL options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2826107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 BEL is a modification of Outflank. The rule states the UNIT can BEL, and since the Character is considered a part of the unit BEFORE the rule is played, he can do it. This hit the nail on the head for me. It's like the whole 'If I take a WG in a 9-man GH unit, I get a 2nd special weapon right?' arguement, as the pack leader rule doesn't do anything until the models are actually on the board. The BEL effect happens once the unit hits play through outflank, it's not something that does anything before that point. SotH allows the IC to outflank, so he outflanks with the scout squad, THEN the BEL effect goes into effect when they enter the board and you roll according to the BEL options. Why thank you :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2826260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodgambit Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Just got off the phone with GW customer service. They said that you may not BEL with SotH and a scout unit and compared it to sticking a deepstriking IC with a unit of Vanguard that would then lose heroic intervention. I have not read those rules so I would have to take him at his word but until GW officially releases something I will just use the rep's ruling, even if I don't agree with it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2826709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I just got an email from GW customer service saying they can. See what I did there? However just to prove the idiotic rules declarations from GW Customer service, The reason why IC can not join Vanguard Veterans and use Heroic Intervention when deepstriking is because the damn rule for Heroic Intervention specifically tells you that if and IC joins the unit of Vanguard Veterans they cannot use Heroic Intervention!!! They are absolutely NOTHING alike! HI specifically tells you that you cannot and OBEL specifically tells you that when outflanking the Wolf Scout UNIT (which the IC is part of the unit for all intents and purposes except close combat where he fights as his own unit) outflanks, it will OBEL. Nothing in common at all dumbarse GW Customer Service rep!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2826805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 And GW has said that an IC with Saga of the Hunter can outflank with Wolf Scouts via FAQ. So when the unit outflanks, which the IC with SotH can do with Wolf Scouts as per the FAQ, the Wolf Scout UNIT will OBEL. The GW FAQ is the official release you are looking for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234507-saga-of-the-hunter-work-with-obel-yet/#findComment-2826808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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