Second game played. Against Tau

[Kerrai]

Hi

 

Today i played my first 1750 game ever, i took a balanced list of Angels to the place where i finaly should start gaming for real.

 

HQ

Librarian 125p

Jump Pack

Shield of Sanguinius

Might of Heroes

 

Elite

5 Sanguinary Guards 210p

1x Powerfist

 

Priest 75p komp 16

Jump pack

Blood Chalice

 

Troop

10 Assault Marines - 235p

2x Melta

1xPower Fist

 

10 Assault Marines - 235p

2x Melta

1xPower Fist

 

10 Assault Marines - 215p

2x Flamer

1x Power Weapon

 

Fast

Baal, Assault Cannon, HB Spoons 145p

Baal, Assault Cannon, HB Spoons 145p

 

Heavy

Dreadnought 115

Assault Cannon and Fist

 

Dreadnought 115

Plasma Cannon and Fist

 

Dreadnought 135

Las Cannon and Fist

 

It should be capable on holding its own, but the gentleman i faced (who knew it was my first game and acted as my teacher) brought something i didn't plan for

 

Grey Knights

 

28 Terminators (inc HQ), a vindicare assassin and a dreadknight (with teleporter and sword). The terminators had balanced load out with approx, 3 halberds and 2 hammers in each group. The three groups had split heavy weaponry so

it was 2 psycannons, 1 incinerator and 2 psilencers

 

So we rolled for mission and got kill points O_o (i had 11 he had 6, i was hoping for objectives seeing as i was so much faster then him) So it looked quite bad from the start. We got spearhead deployment and i won the roll to go first, and i took it.

 

Being new isn't easy, so i really didn't know where to put all my units.. i tried to keep a few in cover, hugging them closely together since he didn't have any nasty blast templates. I outflanked with my baals as well.. not knowing why exactly, but it felt like they would have died horribly if i tried to scout rush and make a few potshots at him (seeing as he had terminators.. rending was needed too.. yuck).

 

I lost a squad of assault marines the first turn due to his dreadknight charging me, in the second turn i smashed his dreadknight. He then pretty much shoot me with everything he had, took down my priest and half an assault squad in the second turn. In the third turn i charged his terminators with a dread, sang guard and the 5 man assault marine squad with a librarian that had withstand the torrent of fire. In his turn 3 that terminator group died. I had a hard time reaching his vindicare assassins so he could keep firing at my dreads and started to immobilize them and his terminator buddies tore his weapons off (both the plasma and the assault cannon dread suffered from this in turn 3)

 

In turn 4 i just had some struggler's left, 4 man group of sang guard and 3man assault squad with librarian, 2 baals and some shot up dreads. The loss was clear but i went out with a smile. (shot up his 9 man terminator squad to 3 at least)

 

In the end he got 7 Kill points and i 2, not the best start at my 40k adventure but gosh did i learn a lot

 

But still, how do we blood angels take care of mass terminators without opting a list towards it?

Can we make balanced lists that can take care of threats like it? His terminators squads was awful to charge since his halberds would probably kill 1 – 3 guys before i got to hit, even with a priest..

 

Anyways, i hope to be able to capture the next game more elaborate so i can write a real battle report and hopefully with pictures.

[knife&fork]

But still, how do we blood angels take care of mass terminators without opting a list towards it?

Can we make balanced lists that can take care of threats like it? His terminators squads was awful to charge since his halberds would probably kill 1 – 3 guys before i got to hit, even with a priest..

 

A shooty HG is probably better than the sang guard in this list. Either 4*PG or 4*MG+4*FL. Plus you get another FNP+FC bubble.

 

Most of the time jump troopers should stay in reserve. The problem is that the rest of your list will then be more exposed. A balanced approach isn't always the best.

 

Usually it's better to focus at one unit at the time, but for an occasion like this reducing the effectiveness of every unit a little bit might be what gives you the edge to win combats. Assault marines aren't amazing vs MEQ, even with FNC+FC, you have to pick fights you will win.

 

Also, are you playing with "kompmallen"?

[Kerrai]

The army list is made with kompmallen in mind yes, due to the fact that we use it alot around here..

I also try to build balanced list due to the tournament where you dont know what you will face, atleast in my head it sounds like a good idea, but what do i know.

 

Well i suspect that with a balanced list you will go up against match ups that will blow you away, but on the other hand can win against most

[Israfel]

Hello,

 

To be honest I really like your list. It seems that you've put in the things you like in it. Don't be hard on yourself, the game has a learning curve and suffering several defeats at the begining is expected. Your heavy support choices may be optimized a bit, if you like dreanoughts you should also consider furioso's for some serious close combat action. It would complement your dreads nicely. Also since you have 35 jumpers you might consider to insert more FnP bubbles in the form of more SP's or an Honor Guard.

 

Keep in mind that the BA is an expensive elite army thus you will not be able to maintain pressure all over the borad at one given time. However, thanks to the speed of the BA (JP's and fast vehicles) you should be able to apply extreme pressure to certain areas of the board to wipe out your opponents at that particular area. Them move to another part of the battlefield. Your speed also will help you choose your battles. It takes time to master these concepts but in time I'm sure you will get there.

 

For this particular opponent you could have opted to focus fire as much as possible. Choose one unit (the one that you feel that will be most harmful to you in the near future and torrent it to death. All the dreads, baals, and even the RAS firing should knock out even terminator squads or make them easy prey for the ensuing assault. Once one squad is taken out rinse and repeat and move to the next squad you find most troublesome.

 

Statistically the vindicare should go down to one round of shooting from a baal predator :)

 

Keep up the good fight brother! :)

[knife&fork]

The army list is made with kompmallen in mind yes, due to the fact that we use it alot around here..

You poor bastard :)

 

I also try to build balanced list due to the tournament where you dont know what you will face, atleast in my head it sounds like a good idea, but what do i know.

 

Well i suspect that with a balanced list you will go up against match ups that will blow you away, but on the other hand can win against most

 

There's a difference between balanced as in "can take on all comers" (except hard counters of course) and balanced as in "contains a little bit of everything". Right now I think your list falls more in the second category. Of course there's some overlap, but when I suggest a little more focus it's not the same thing as building a hard counter vs specific lists.

 

I'm being a bit vague here but I hope you get my point.

[Kerrai]

Well i kinda get it, but say i wanted to be a little more focused. How would one achieve that (without "ruining" to much of the list)?

In regard of what i faced, the only things that really underperformed in my eyes were the assault squad that got whacked first turn and the LasCannon and Plasma dread

The assault cannons on both the Baals and the dread did terrible things to what ever they shot at.

[knife&fork]

Well i kinda get it, but say i wanted to be a little more focused. How would one achieve that (without "ruining" to much of the list)?

In regard of what i faced, the only things that really underperformed in my eyes were the assault squad that got whacked first turn and the LasCannon and Plasma dread

The assault cannons on both the Baals and the dread did terrible things to what ever they shot at.

 

Well, what do you have in terms of models? Do you have some other stuff you didn't use or is this everything?

 

You have lot's of points tied up in the assault squads and sang guard, units that are somewhat fragile if left out in the open and honestly do better deploying from reserves. Problem is that the Baals you're using are close range fire support that really can't stand back and fire. There are also slightly too many jump infantry to keep them all in cover or march them up behind vehicles.

 

If you run a more heavily mechanized list a few assault squads can make a good tactical reserve, or move up behind the AV wall. If you run a majority of jump troopers a few long ranged vehicles can stand off at range and hopefully take out something before the rest of your force arrives. Right now your list falls somewhere in between.

 

Grey knights are tricky to deal with for BA since they have good mid range firepower and while not truly great in CC they are good at finishing off small elite units. And those pesky S8 AC dreads are bad news for anything less than a land raider.

[Kerrai]

Well i dont have a lot more, as i basically got these 1750 painted just 2 weeks ago

 

I am sitting on a tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher and a chaplain/reclusiarch. Also 2x Missile Launchers, 1 Multi-Melta, 1 Assault Cannon for the dreads

And 10 Terminators with 2 Cyclone missile launchers, 10 Assault Terminators with 5 Hammer/Shield and 5 claws and 2 rhinos/razorbacks. Tho these are unpainted, and i dont even know if i want terminators

with my angels (then i probably need a transport.. and it will be a big circle and them my army will look like everybody else's), i am kinda sick of painting red (it is quite a hard color to get right). Even tho my chapter is a DIY i could paint it how ever i want with red details, and i think i will do this as well, even if i face the rage of people telling me all angels needs to be red. Its my army, my money :drool: they can deal with it the best they like.

 

But i agree pm deploying from reserve. It could probably have saved me a kill point or two, but i also used this fight to learn the basics, so i didn't use many "special" rules. I just set up and went.

 

On saturday i will faceoff a Tau army. I know nothing on what he will bring, but i might try 2 LasCannon/Missile Launcher Dreads, seeing as i got no drop pods for them yet.

 

I do have some money coming in, so i do plan to add something. My first thought were two furioso dreads, either normal or librarians. But i also had a look at 2x land speeder and 2x Vindicators

[JMac]

Well i kinda get it, but say i wanted to be a little more focused. How would one achieve that (without "ruining" to much of the list)?

In regard of what i faced, the only things that really underperformed in my eyes were the assault squad that got whacked first turn and the LasCannon and Plasma dread

The assault cannons on both the Baals and the dread did terrible things to what ever they shot at.

 

As Knife&Fork said, it depends on what else you have to make it more focused. However, one simple thing to add more efficiency to your list is to add a Sanguinary Priest which will make your troops much more durable.

 

Assault squads while seemingly strong are more fragile than anything. One thing they do well is putting lots of attacks onto a squad, but they are very fragile on the return attacks. Therefore, they need to be supported by a hard hitting unit, such as your Sang Guard. One good tactic, is deep strike both the assault squad and Sang Guard, keeping the Sang Guard behind the assault squad as a counter attack threat. I am really surprised your Las/Plas Dreads underperformed, I would have figured them to take out at least 2 terminators between them. Assault cannons would underperform against terminators, 2+ saves are brutal. However, don't cross them off your list yet. Assault cannons are really good against a lot of other infantry and can even do very well against terminators if you roll those rending wounds.

 

Edit: What is Kompmallen? Also, don't take too many dreads against Tau. Their Str 10 Railguns will eat them for breakfast.

[Ash]

At 1750 you can afford to take Dante. Your usual method to deploy a DOA list will always be from reserve.

Sanguinary Guard + Banner + Sanguinary Priest + Dante = Dante putting out 7 Iniative 7 strength 5 master crafted atttacks.

Supporting the sanguinary guard with a RAS or Honour Guard squad as said above. If you run a librarian in there even better but watch out for the GK anti psyker shenanigans

Fight with overwhelming force and use mobility. Look for isoloated GK units especially weaker ones (same rule for all opponents really) you need numbers to avoid taking too much return combat. As said above rinse wash and repeat across the board.

A 5 man squad of GK's even with I6 halberds will not like meeting Dante and his pals at I7. You need preists for everything you do with BA but especially so when dealing with GK purifiers and their cursed cleansing flame.

 

When you play the tau If you can swing it change one of your RAS squads and turn it into cheap and cheerful Vanguard Vet squad. Then drop that into the middle of the tau gunline using heroic intervention ;) its always fun.

For even more laughs hold back your Baals in reserve and then outflank them into the tau

[Ash]

I actually like the list its not too bad

[Judaz]

First: If you find it hard to paint red, try army painters spray, I use pure red myself, but I hear that dragon red works aswell. Just spray, wash with Baal red and do some highlights. Looks quite good.

 

You said the assault cannons killed whatever they shot at, I'd rather take a RAS with an asscan Razorback instead of the sang guard. About the same cost, and a bit more shooty.

 

And keep all the Dreadnoughts. Add some more, you can always use more dreads! :lol:

[ulllyssies0110]

Its a solid list you just have to play it and learn tactics of you're list. GK are a tuff nut to crack. One thing You might want to think abought is by adding a rocket launcher to you're Dreads. it adds a lil more range punch to you're army.

[Kerrai]

Dont know if anyone reads this still, and i am happy for all the input

 

But some more thoughts,

 

Baals, do we run them with the bolter sponsoons or not? I found that i wanted to go 12" more often then stand still and try to blast things or only moving 6". Is it enough to only run the assault cannon?

And with my next opponent, i mean the bolter will go through stuff, but i also need to get in range..

 

I also found that atleast against GK, the Shield of Sanguinius power was completely useless.. most of the time i got the regular 4+ cover save anyways.. Better to run something else maybe? Fear of the Darkness and Might?

 

I wish i had some drop pods for the next battle, and the general idea is to have a odd number? Like 3 or 5 things in pod right?

 

I also recently put in a order for a Sniper squad and a land speeder, i like to try out lists that doesn't look like everybody else's. So i hope they can do something good (wish we could have a Landspeeder Storm right now)

[knife&fork]

Baals, do we run them with the bolter sponsoons or not? I found that i wanted to go 12" more often then stand still and try to blast things or only moving 6". Is it enough to only run the assault cannon?

And with my next opponent, i mean the bolter will go through stuff, but i also need to get in range..

 

A difficult question. Against some armies (dark eldar, tyranids in particular) the HB sponsons are golden, against everything MEQ or TEQ they mostly slow you down, as you've already discovered. There's no right or wrong here, but if you lack a few points for something else taking the sponsons off is definitely something to consider.

 

 

I also found that atleast against GK, the Shield of Sanguinius power was completely useless.. most of the time i got the regular 4+ cover save anyways.. Better to run something else maybe? Fear of the Darkness and Might?

 

"Shield" is the most useful for protecting deepstrikers on arrival, or running an embarked librarian that can keep all your vehicles in his 6" bubble. 5+ is not great but it's better than nothing when you have to risk a few volleys of low AP fire.

 

I wish i had some drop pods for the next battle, and the general idea is to have a odd number? Like 3 or 5 things in pod right?

 

I also recently put in a order for a Sniper squad and a land speeder, i like to try out lists that doesn't look like everybody else's. So i hope they can do something good (wish we could have a Landspeeder Storm right now)

 

How many you want depends entirely on how you want to use them and what you're going to put in them. If you have a lot of units in pods the ones on the table can find themselves in big trouble, specially if you go second or your opponent also makes heavy use of reserves.

 

Speeders are great. Scouts less so, but variation is fun. For the speeders people usually go HF/MM or HB/Typhoon.

[JMac]

You are being spoiled with great feedback! However, you raise some interesting questions and that tells me your mind is in the right place. Experience is everything, keep playing games and finding what works and what doesn't work for you.

 

What is "Kompmallen"?

[Brightguy]

Google leads me to believe it's something Swedish to do with army composition. Can't tell more, because I don't read Swedish.

[Kerrai]

Yeah, it tries to balance the army composition between codex's

 

I try not to bring it up outside of Sweden cause then people will rage and yell how bad it is to be using something like it

But since its used here, i grown to build list around it.. instead of ignoring it. And we have tournaments that adepts and implement it and tournaments that forgoes it.

 

Thanks again for the input, dont really have anything close that plays Warhammer so its always nice to "talk" with people who plays the game.

[knife&fork]

Google leads me to believe it's something Swedish to do with army composition. Can't tell more, because I don't read Swedish.

 

It's a very heavy handed template for army composition that pretty much sets out to re-balance the entire game. You get punished for using powerful characters and units (even those fairly priced), multiples of the same unit and both intended and unintended synergies in codex.

 

Some tournaments in Sweden takes it even further, following is an example list that's just :D too good to play! according to the organizers of Sweden's largest convention.

 

----

 

HQ

 

Mephiston

 

Elites

 

6*Assault terminators ( 4*TH+SS)

 

Sanguinary Priest (jump pack)

 

Troops

 

10*Assault marines (PF, 2*MG)

 

10*Assault marines (PF, 2*MG)

 

5*Assault marines (Flamer)

HB Razorback

 

7*Death Company (PF,2*PW,IP)

Drop pod

 

DC Dreadnought (talons)

 

Heavy Support

 

Storm raven (TL-MM)

 

-----

[JMac]

It's a very heavy handed template for army composition that pretty much sets out to re-balance the entire game. You get punished for using powerful characters and units (even those fairly priced), multiples of the same unit and both intended and unintended synergies in codex.

 

Punished how? Such as disqualification? This is interesting to me, sorry for all the questions.

[knife&fork]

It's a very heavy handed template for army composition that pretty much sets out to re-balance the entire game. You get punished for using powerful characters and units (even those fairly priced), multiples of the same unit and both intended and unintended synergies in codex.

 

Punished how? Such as disqualification? This is interesting to me, sorry for all the questions.

 

"Punished" with a negative comp score. Stack on too much and your army will be disqualified to play in many tournaments or even against people who like to use it for friendly games.

 

The idea is that everyone should be able to play regardless of what minis they like to collect. Of course it doesn't work out that way. Competitive players will just min max around the "kompmallen" and pick the army that's currently the least neutered.

 

I never use this template myself, trying to make a bad list on purpose just rubs me the wrong way. I prefer the common sense approach: don't be d**k to newbies, don't tailor your list for each game, remember to be a good sport.

 

Luckily it's easy to arrange a tournament or game yourself, too bad about the conventions though.

 

Sorry for the thread hijack OP, but the Swedish tourney scene is pretty strange and I'm sure this has been of some interest to those who aren't familiar with it.

[Kerrai]

Hi again

 

So i had my second game today against a friendly chap who played Tau. I didn't know much about Grey Knights and i knew even less about Tau. All i knew is that they shoot good and cant fight in melee at all.

 

So i rolled to go first and i think i made a mistake here, i should have given him the first turn. And reserve alot more of my army. But what the heck. We had 4 objectives and spearhead deployment.

I had 2 objectives near middle (since i also want to advance, i put them close to the middle and the other 12" from that objective. he put one objective on his fire warriors and for some reason a objective in the table quarter to his right.

 

He had somewhat like 2x10 Firewarriors in devilfishes. 3 man Stealthsquad with 2 markerlight drones, Skyray, 4 Broadsides with bling, 2 Cruisis suits with plasma/pod and Crisis leader with 1 body guard with plasma/pod. I might have missed something but i know very little about tau.

 

Well to be short (didn't take notes.. so cant give a detailed report) He shot me to bits, my dreadnoughts failed to bring down anything and they seemed to live forever, so i guess the only good thing they did were to soak shots (had 2 lascannon/missile this time and one assault cannon/fist). My sanguinary guard didn't do anything, they got shot up before getting there. My librarian + squad only immobilized a devilfish and then they were wiped out clean. On turn 4 tho i held 1 objective, contested one (he stood on it with a group of pathfinders, with one of my assault squad 1" away). He held one objective.

 

So in the fifth turn, i had 2 dreadnought and 2 assault squad units and a baal left. I just shuffled around a little so i took one of the objective, and in the assault face i relied on wiping his pathfinder team, but with my dice rolls i wasn't sure i could. But i proceeded to kill 4 of the 8, he then killed one of my guys and then i killed 2 more with my power first sarge. He failed the leadership and i caught him. I then had to get atleast a 2 on the consolidation move. And yay, i rolled a 3. So if i could withstand his shooting for one more turn, and it ended on turn 5 i could take this after all.

 

His fifth turn. He had 4 broadsides, 2 empty devilfishes, the stealth squad, a skyray with 1 missile left and his two fire warrior squads left. One of his fire warriors were tho very far away from anything to be a threat, either by shooting or objective taking. One of his devilfish, his stealth squad and the 4 broadsides and the skyray opened fire against my squad who held one of the objectives. But after all that firing, and finally some great armor and cover rolls for me i only lost 1 guy. So if the game ended now i would take it with 2 objectives to 1. He rolls... and its a 2, game over.

 

So the first victory to the blood angels!

 

And again my Dreadnoughts failed to really do anything, i shot like 8 Lascannon/Missile shots at different devilfishes but they didnt penetrate his armor of 12. I also think i need to learn what to shoot with my baals, i tried to open armor with them.. but even against side armor 11 its crazy hard. I also need to learn more tactics, like what do deepstrike and against who? When do i start on the board and walk to the battle. all these things will probably be clear on day, but now i just need more games to play.

 

//Martin

[sp4rky]

Hi Martin,

 

It's always difficult to know how to deploy (what to keep in reserve, deep strike, scout/outflank, etc) when you don't know what you're facing. It's a problem I have against anything that isn't Space Marines :lol:.

 

At 24 inches your Baal's each have 10 shots so they are great at shooting infantry squads. These 10 shots could easily knock down 25% of a squad and force a leadership test. I don't know what Tau's Armour Saves are like, but if they're 4+ or worse then they wouldn't get any saves against Heavy Bolters or Assault Cannons.

[ulllyssies0110]

Hi again

 

So i had my second game today against a friendly chap who played Tau. I didn't know much about Grey Knights and i knew even less about Tau. All i knew is that they shoot good and cant fight in melee at all.

 

So i rolled to go first and i think i made a mistake here, i should have given him the first turn. And reserve alot more of my army. But what the heck. We had 4 objectives and spearhead deployment.

I had 2 objectives near middle (since i also want to advance, i put them close to the middle and the other 12" from that objective. he put one objective on his fire warriors and for some reason a objective in the table quarter to his right.

 

He had somewhat like 2x10 Firewarriors in devilfishes. 3 man Stealthsquad with 2 markerlight drones, Skyray, 4 Broadsides with bling, 2 Cruisis suits with plasma/pod and Crisis leader with 1 body guard with plasma/pod. I might have missed something but i know very little about tau.

 

Well to be short (didn't take notes.. so cant give a detailed report) He shot me to bits, my dreadnoughts failed to bring down anything and they seemed to live forever, so i guess the only good thing they did were to soak shots (had 2 lascannon/missile this time and one assault cannon/fist). My sanguinary guard didn't do anything, they got shot up before getting there. My librarian + squad only immobilized a devilfish and then they were wiped out clean. On turn 4 tho i held 1 objective, contested one (he stood on it with a group of pathfinders, with one of my assault squad 1" away). He held one objective.

 

So in the fifth turn, i had 2 dreadnought and 2 assault squad units and a baal left. I just shuffled around a little so i took one of the objective, and in the assault face i relied on wiping his pathfinder team, but with my dice rolls i wasn't sure i could. But i proceeded to kill 4 of the 8, he then killed one of my guys and then i killed 2 more with my power first sarge. He failed the leadership and i caught him. I then had to get atleast a 2 on the consolidation move. And yay, i rolled a 3. So if i could withstand his shooting for one more turn, and it ended on turn 5 i could take this after all.

 

His fifth turn. He had 4 broadsides, 2 empty devilfishes, the stealth squad, a skyray with 1 missile left and his two fire warrior squads left. One of his fire warriors were tho very far away from anything to be a threat, either by shooting or objective taking. One of his devilfish, his stealth squad and the 4 broadsides and the skyray opened fire against my squad who held one of the objectives. But after all that firing, and finally some great armor and cover rolls for me i only lost 1 guy. So if the game ended now i would take it with 2 objectives to 1. He rolls... and its a 2, game over.

 

So the first victory to the blood angels!

 

And again my Dreadnoughts failed to really do anything, i shot like 8 Lascannon/Missile shots at different devilfishes but they didnt penetrate his armor of 12. I also think i need to learn what to shoot with my baals, i tried to open armor with them.. but even against side armor 11 its crazy hard. I also need to learn more tactics, like what do deepstrike and against who? When do i start on the board and walk to the battle. all these things will probably be clear on day, but now i just need more games to play.

 

//Martin

First w/ BA's if you can always go first. Second w/ the Tau get in to close combat as soon as possible. Deep strike most of you're army. Come in behind terrain and assault next turn. Have you're baals and SG go crisis, broadside, and Stealth suit hunting (they have a Armour save). You're RAS kill the fire warriors and cap objectives. Havee dread focus on tanks and fire support. You may want to think abought replacing you're Dreads w/ Typhoons (but give you're dreads a few more games). Make you're enemy fight you're fight. Know you're victory conditions. Read the Art of War. The most important thing is you won, So you must of done something right. :)

[JMac]

Congrats on the win! Generally you want to only keep your whole army on the table versus armies who don't have a lot of long range shooting (i.e. orks and bugs). So you did well keeping your RAS and SG in reserve. It's a shame they got blown to bits, chalk it up to either bad DSing deployment or bad armor saves. Regardless, you learned from it. Sounds like the dreads were only useless because of bad rolls.