Deathwing Banner

[Chorus of Serpents]

Clearly, an apothecary is a critical upgrade for the Deathwing command squad. But what about the Deathwing banner?

 

Unlike the apothecary, the banner's utility decreases as the squad takes casualties. Also, based on my understanding of the rules, Belial himself (and any other independent characters that have joined the squad) would not benefit from the extra attacks. Is this correct?

 

Thanks.

[EPK]

Clearly, an apothecary is a critical upgrade for the Deathwing command squad. But what about the Deathwing banner?

 

Unlike the apothecary, the banner's utility decreases as the squad takes casualties. Also, based on my understanding of the rules, Belial himself (and any other independent characters that have joined the squad) would not benefit from the extra attacks. Is this correct?

 

Thanks.

 

If you did not have the points or thought you needed to spend them elsewhere, yes I would drop the banner before the apothecary. I also might question it's need in a footslogging list I suppose. I however run a DW-GW mix and like to have that extra edge to my hammer unit. I see what you mean by it's utility decreasing, but on the other hand, once you start taking casualties, you could argue you need it even more. At full strength that unit puts out a crazy amount of attacks anyway but cut in half, the banner helps make up for the slack.

 

Also, unless I have been playing it wrong, I do not see why any IC attached to the squad would not get the extra attacks.

 

EDIT: I think you are referring to page 48 of the Rule book. The banner is not a default special rule of the unit itself. It is a upgrade (bought from Belial no less) that specifically says it confers such and such to the squad. The rule makes this distinction, saying "unless specified in the rule itself".

[Chorus of Serpents]

...but on the other hand, once you start taking casualties, you could argue you need it even more. At full strength that unit puts out a crazy amount of attacks anyway but cut in half, the banner helps make up for the slack..

 

That's an excellent point. I had not considered that.

[krewl]

I agree here, the banner is something that is sometimes hard to find the points for, so yes you should drop it before the apothecary, but once you have the option it's golden cause it does really make your unit hurt very hard when it hits.

 

I tend to play belial and his squad together and belial with the claws so he rolls 6 attacks on the charge, usually hitting on 3' and re-rolling to wound at I5 which helps in minimising return pain they get.

Also I've noticed that that unit still hurts like a beast when it's down 3 guys, thats still 4+4 hammer attacks and belials 6 claw attacks on the charge. That way the unit can do what it's made for which is soaking hits and still remain a credible threat.

[Rorshak]

Always take the banner if at all possible.

 

 

You should be aiming your best CC squad to neutralise his best CC squad.

 

In other words they should be fighting MCs or troops with power weapons most of the time- so the apothecary is only usefull for getting as many men to said unit intact as you can. Once the fight starts FNP will be useless.

 

Incidentally, with LCs Belial is gonna get squished from PFs far too easily. On average a tactical squad with a PF on the Sergeant is odds on to do it if they get the charge!

If you want I5 power weapons to thin the enemy get a chaplain in there. Until such time as Belial gets WS6 and an Iron Halo he should be TH & SS.

 

 

 

 

Obviously if you are outclassed then you should avoid his best CC squad!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Always take the banner if at all possible.

 

 

You should be aiming your best CC squad to neutralise his best CC squad.

First point above, I totally agree.

 

Second point I totally disagree. Shoot the hell out of his best CC unit (use plasma spam if poss to negate his FnP), nearly all the newer dexes CC deathstars will beat our face.

Use our best CC units to multicharge his shooty units. Be the bully, take the initiative and as the old adage goes"shoot the fighty stuff and fight the shooty stuff". DW are good all round but need to fight on our terms (even post FAQ).

 

2c

 

s

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Always take the banner if at all possible.

 

 

You should be aiming your best CC squad to neutralise his best CC squad.

First point above, I totally agree.

 

Second point I totally disagree. Shoot the hell out of his best CC unit (use plasma spam if poss to negate his FnP), nearly all the newer dexes CC deathstars will beat our face.

Use our best CC units to multicharge his shooty units. Be the bully, take the initiative and as the old adage goes"shoot the fighty stuff and fight the shooty stuff". DW are good all round but need to fight on our terms (even post FAQ).

 

2c

 

s

Hmm... I don't necessarily agree that all the new Death Stars will outclass Belial w/ SS+TH, Int-Chap, and 5 Termines (2 LCs and 3 SS+Th). The unit is ridiculously survivable in my experience. I often use it as a magnet, drawing in units away from objectives. I can't think of any units off the top of my head that will utterly decimate though of course I can think of a few that will give it quite a fight. As long as you're not letting Abaddon or the Swarmlord get into CC, it's quite a tough unit to beat.

 

Of course, I am more than willing to accept that there are Death Stars out there that will beat it. None just come to mind at the moment.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry, shouldn't have said deathstars (things HAVE changed in our favour post FAQ), should have said CC units. TH/SS are great against PWs and most 'deathstars' rely on the equivalent of those.

 

I faced Dante, Priest, VV sqd and assault squad the other weekend, it took Belial, Vendred and 3 DWS to beat them, only Belial, apothecary and one other DW survived, the dread was immobilised and no CC weapon arm.

 

I only beat him because he DS'd too close and I got the charge. Dante alone puts out tonnes of PW wounds at high I over a couple of rounds (bugger made 8 ++ saves vs THs too :) ).

 

For the unit you mentioned(570 pts), an ork player can field 95 boys, we will die to attrition vs that.

 

Even the BA libby in TDA with a SS, S10 at I5 and rerolls everything will smash (ID) the two characters in your example

 

I still stand by the adage though ;) , why risk a phirric(sp) victory?

 

s

[Azurious]

For the unit you mentioned(570 pts), an ork player can field 95 boys, we will die to attrition vs that.

 

One of my close mates has played orks religiously and my standard command squad with belial consistantly takes out 30 stong units of boys in 2 rounds of cc (ie my turn then his) on the charge, and 3 turns if he gets the charge. With the apoth I have found the command squad is redicuously survivable against horde tactics, ie loads of dice but no power weps or poor ap. the real threat to them is from concentrated fire from high strength or ap 1-2 fire, though if they are getting pumped by those weps they arnt pointing at the rest of your force ^^

[Interrogator Stobz]

For the unit you mentioned(570 pts), an ork player can field 95 boys, we will die to attrition vs that.

 

One of my close mates has played orks religiously and my standard command squad with belial consistantly takes out 30 stong units of boys in 2 rounds of cc (ie my turn then his) on the charge, and 3 turns if he gets the charge. With the apoth I have found the command squad is redicuously survivable against horde tactics, ie loads of dice but no power weps or poor ap. the real threat to them is from concentrated fire from high strength or ap 1-2 fire, though if they are getting pumped by those weps they arnt pointing at the rest of your force ^^

 

I may stand corrected :D do you lose may dudes to that squad?

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

For the unit you mentioned(570 pts), an ork player can field 95 boys, we will die to attrition vs that.

 

One of my close mates has played orks religiously and my standard command squad with belial consistantly takes out 30 stong units of boys in 2 rounds of cc (ie my turn then his) on the charge, and 3 turns if he gets the charge. With the apoth I have found the command squad is redicuously survivable against horde tactics, ie loads of dice but no power weps or poor ap. the real threat to them is from concentrated fire from high strength or ap 1-2 fire, though if they are getting pumped by those weps they arnt pointing at the rest of your force ^^

 

I may stand corrected :D do you lose may dudes to that squad?

With FnP and a few Storm Shields, the Orks aren't going to kill too many, especially with Independent Characters to draw models' attacks. Even if the Orks don't lose anyone on the way in, the Terminators will still rip 'em to shreds. Even worse if the Orks don't charge.

 

Orks Charging:

Int Chaplain, 4 attacks. Hits on 3+, 2.66 hits, 1.333 Orks die.

2 Lightning Claw Terminators, 8 attacks. 4 hits, 3 dead Orks.

~25 Boyz. 100 attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds. ~4 failed saves, 2 die after FnP.

1 Nob, 4 (IIRC) attacks. 2 hits, terminator probably dies.

Belial, 4 attacks. ~3 hits, ~2 Boyz die.

Probably 2 TH terminators, 6 attacks, 3 hits, ~2 Boyz die.

Terminators- 8 Orks. Orks- ~3 Terminators, or maybe only 2 with a wound on an IC. Orks lose by 5, call it 12 Orks dead after Fearless wounds. Now the tide turns as the Orks lose attacks and strength. Terminators will eventually get through em.

 

Now if the Terminators charge (likely), it's a lot more fun.

 

Terminators Charge:

5 Int Chaplain attacks. 4 hits, 2 dead Orks.

2 LC Terminators, 10 attacks. ~7 hits. ~5 dead Orks.

23 Boyz, 69 attacks. ~34 hit. 12 Wound. A dead Terminator.

Nob, 3 attacks. 1.5 hits, ~1 wound. Terminator maybe dies

Belial 5 attacks, ~4 hits. ~3 dead Orks.

Probably 2 TH, 8 attacks. 6 hits, 5 dead Orks.

 

Terminators- 15 Orks. Orks- Maybe 2 Terminators. Call it 27 Dead Orks after Fearless Wounds. If they've taken any wounds coming in (very likely), they're dead.

 

Now just imagine that charging combat happening after a Land Raider Crusader only moves 6 inches (Orks are always coming to you after all). 1 round of combat and Orks go bye bye. Now it gets even funnier if you don't run 3 TH/SS terminators like I do and only run 2.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nice, thanks for the math, I couldn't do it at work, too busy ;)

 

Problem is if we take two-three wounds from the first squad and we need to repeat it twice more to be fair point for point (570 pts=95 boys). Each time getting worse for us. We then lose to attrition, assuming enough rounds in the game, or we are tarpitted etc. Obviously we may want to tarpit them too. Situational issue. You are totally correct not a face beat it would be a tough fight.

 

If we had shot them up with WW, CML or cheap flamers our CC hammer could have gone and wrecked something else.

 

That's my point, I'm not into arguing so sorry if this seems like one.

 

Now if we are in a LRC things get interesting... we end up shooting their CC sqds from a boyz proof box, and charging them when they are weaker more Bullying good times.

 

OT: taking the banner would be great in your example :D

 

s

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Nice, thanks for the math, I couldn't do it at work, too busy :D

 

Problem is if we take two-three wounds from the first squad and we need to repeat it twice more to be fair point for point (570 pts=95 boys). Each time getting worse for us. We then lose to attrition, assuming enough rounds in the game, or we are tarpitted etc. Obviously we may want to tarpit them too. Situational issue. You are totally correct not a face beat it would be a tough fight.

 

If we had shot them up with WW, CML or cheap flamers our CC hammer could have gone and wrecked something else.

 

That's my point, I'm not into arguing so sorry if this seems like one.

 

Now if we are in a LRC things get interesting... we end up shooting their CC sqds from a boyz proof box, and charging them when they are weaker more Bullying good times.

 

OT: taking the banner would be great in your example ;)

 

s

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Again, it's very rare that we aren't shooting the Boyz on the way in with our other units. Either way, Ork Boyz are actually one of the worst match ups for that squad as they have enough bodies and crappy enough armor that power weapons don't matter much. And that unit is always in a LRC for me.

 

Also, they do have the banner. :/ That's why 2 lightning claw terminators are generating 10 attacks on the charge.

[shabbadoo]

Depends on what you intend to do with the unit. If you plan of getting it into close combat ASAP, which is normally going to be the case because they will be armed for it, take the banner. The reason why is because anything that will ignore the 2+ armor save will negate feel no pain anyways. In this case, the armor protects well enough, and the Deathwing Standard will reap much bigger benefits than the Apothecary ever will. The only thing the Apothecary is good for is to protect against a deluge of normal attacks that the unit will inevitably fail some 2+ armor saves against, so that extra 4+ will then have some value.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry, just noticed the number of attacks :D

 

Bel/Int Chappy/DWS/Apoth/Banner is about the best we can muster and it's only OK in my book. We need to control the game and fight on our terms not theirs as much as poss.

 

Again though, my point to Brother Rorshak was to shoot CC units as much as poss. As you mention, it is rare that we arn't shooting at them on the way in, a well weakened CC unit will crumble to the MIGHT of the DEATHWING!!! but point for point in CC we are going to struggle to win against lots of CC specialists.

 

Hordes sure are a different kettle of fish to deathstars and usually require a different set of support weapons. The mighty flexible and long forgotten CML are great post FAQ, I'm sure we can agree :P.

 

Like you mentioned about our weakness to plasma spam, if we can do it to the opposition CC deathstars we won't need to fight them in CC where they are best. A normal DWS could mop them up again freeing our HQ DWS to rampage through their back line units. A month ago I fried 6 Sanguard that DS'd and forgot to spread out with one PC shot from my dread. Adage confirmed ;).

 

Different styles for different folks though, I'm not saying my way works all the time.

 

s

 

EDIT: WHAT SHABZ SAID!! ;)

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Sorry, just noticed the number of attacks :rolleyes:

 

Bel/Int Chappy/DWS/Apoth/Banner is about the best we can muster and it's only OK in my book. We need to control the game and fight on our terms not theirs as much as poss.

 

Again though, my point to Brother Rorshak was to shoot CC units as much as poss. As you mention, it is rare that we arn't shooting at them on the way in, a well weakened CC unit will crumble to the MIGHT of the DEATHWING!!! but point for point in CC we are going to struggle to win against lots of CC specialists.

 

Hordes sure are a different kettle of fish to deathstars and usually require a different set of support weapons. The mighty flexible and long forgotten CML are great post FAQ, I'm sure we can agree :P.

 

Like you mentioned about our weakness to plasma spam, if we can do it to the opposition CC deathstars we won't need to fight them in CC where they are best. A normal DWS could mop them up again freeing our HQ DWS to rampage through their back line units. A month ago I fried 6 Sanguard that DS'd and forgot to spread out with one PC shot from my dread. Adage confirmed :lol:.

 

Different styles for different folks though, I'm not saying my way works all the time.

 

s

 

EDIT: WHAT SHABZ SAID!! ;)

Yep, different styles for different folks. I don't really mind losing the squad if I can draw fire, assaults and screw up the enemy's plans. :) However, that doesn't mean I throw it into combat with whatever. There definitely are things that just need to be shot (Abaddon and the Swarmlord come to mind again) :). All I'm saying is that if needed, the squad can tank a lot. I did not intend to make it sound like my answer is "assault it" every time. Whatever get's the job done the easiest is what works for me. Seeing as how pretty much every unit in my Deathwing lists besides Belial and his buddies are shooting squads, that means most things die to shooting with maybe a follow up assault.