Trevak Dal Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I mean, I have a plastic Daemon Prince model, but I really like taking my Khârn stand in (Drogo) and my PA lord Pelinal, and would like a surprise reinforcement element on the table (since I can't take 3 HQs, and can't convince my friends to go for that-they all play Space Wolves :/) Basically, are they they same base size and all that? I don't really want to buy a new one, and worst case I can just go without and cycle him in as an HQ every once and a while (like I do now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Pretty sure it's the same size base. If somebody wont play with you, because they wont let you use the daemon prince model as a greater daemon, (assuming they are informed ahead of time) you don't want to play with them anyways. Again make sure it is obvious to them before the game starts that it represents the greater daemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If you inform your opponent ahead of time and do not field a Daemon Prince then I don't see a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevlarshark Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I would say go for it. I have used my bloodthirster as a daemon prince in store a few times with no complaint... When you get down to it model-wise what is the difference? They share many characteristics. Large Model - Check Looks daemonic -Check Large Base - Check Similar outline/silhouette -Check The real difference is that your large daemonic model has come from a kit labelled daemon prince. The daemon prince kit is easier to assemble and pose/customise than the (still metal) and notoriously awkward GD kits any day. So I for one certainly would not begrudge you using it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Personally I don't think the GD in the CSM book are worthy of one of the real GD models (you know the ones that you glued to yourself five or six times before it finally stuck to the actual model). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I bought thay kit for just this purpose, still trying to work out quite how I'm converting my "Unclean Lord of Generic Blood Secrets" or whatever I decide to call it, I was planning on avoiding using any of the things that will create a power-armoured shillouette, adding a green stuff flaming head and probably a bunch of plasticard/sculpted details. I did get a bit stuck on wings though, since they obviously don't have them in the rules, but then since several of the official greater daemons do, but don't get to use them and they'd look cool... a conundrum, anyway I haven't builit it yet, plenty of time yet... I bought thay kit for just this purpose, still trying to work out quite how I'm converting my "Unclean Lord of Generic Blood Secrets" or whatever I decide to call it, I was planning on avoiding using any of the things that will create a power-armoured shillouette, adding a green stuff flaming head and probably a bunch of plasticard/sculpted details. I did get a bit stuck on wings though, since they obviously don't have them in the rules, but then since several of the official greater daemons do, but don't get to use them and they'd look cool... a conundrum, anyway I haven't builit it yet, plenty of time yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangneur Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 "Unclean Lord of Generic Blood Secrets".... That sounds like my ex. As to the topic, I believe nearly every opponent should be okay with this, and if they aren't, phone 911 (or whatever it is in your country :cuss) because they've either suffered a head injury, or are about to receive one. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darth_giles Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I wouldn't have a problem with it either. Then again, I remember building demonic-looking beasties from out of spare Tyranid bitz shortly after the 3.0 Daemonhunters codex was released, and DIY greater daemons were very popular choices. That reminds me, I wonder if anyone ever built the two-bodied monstrosity that was based on the Inquisitor-scale genesquealer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Well if the DP has wings [and the problem for me here is that , why would you own a DP without wings ?] the we have a clear breach of rules here making your armor non WYSIWYG . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Go for it, the comment that it has wings is kind of irrelevant to me, you arent using them, it would be the same when you would use a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change model. Those 2 have wings as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Underbelly Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Really? Having a bit of armour on the model makes it illegal? Will it go to prison? Boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Seeing as Greater Daemons in the current codex aren't specific to a certain god anymore I'd say go for it. It'd be no different to using a Blood Thirster or Great Unclean One the way the system works right now as you only have one profile for them. If push comes to show make up a minor god and say that's how all his greater daemons look, wouldn't be too hard to make a blood thirster proxy from that kit anyway. I'm looking at getting one for the same reason because the WFB version just looks like generic greater daemon to me which is what I'm after, I'll just leave the 40k bits off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Really? Having a bit of armour on the model makes it illegal? Will it go to prison? Boring. read the chaos FAQ to get wings rules they have to be modeled counts as can not be used to get wings rules . puting wings on a GD which he doesnt have is making the model non WYSIWYG . It is the same as using hvy bolters to represent auto cannons for chaos havocks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddraconis Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I agree with Jeske, using say a Bloodthirster (cause they come with wings) or a DP with wings modeled on as a GD is against WYSIWYG and there for against the rules. Whenever I play, I use a pair of Bloodthirsters as my DP's and a Keeper of Secrets as my GD since Thirsters come with wings and Keepers dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Frankly that attitude is ridiculous. So long as the model doesn't actually use the rules for wings there's no problem, since summoned greater daemons require summoning and Daemon Princes don't there would be no confusion. MAybe this needs to go into the FAQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddraconis Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Its not an attitude, its WYSIWYG plain and simple. If a model has a Melta Gun but it wasnt paid for, thats against WYSIWYG too. Some places are more strict about it then others. I use Keepers as GD's to avoid that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 well fair enough I suppose, but when I see a bloodthirster I see a greater daemon, just as much as when I see a keeper of secrets or a great unclean one. I'd be less likely to accept a 'thirster as a daemon prince than a suitably converted Daemon Prince as a greater daemon wings or no. If this is really the level of WYSIWIG that people stick to then my argument is equally valid, especially if it's a stock bloodthirster. one with different wepons and a different head maybe, but out of the box that's a bloodthirster and that is de facto a greater daemon and if a summoned version rather than a chaos daemon one then one unable to use his wings to fly due to the lack of power induced from his summoning. I understand why you're doing it and that's fine and dandy, for you. For me it's rule of cool, and wings look cool. how about if the wings were modelled to be withered and unuseable for flight in the material plane but work just fine in the warp, in the way that kathartes are hunched skinless monstrous creatures on the motral plane but in the emyprean appear as angelic creatures of immense beauty. In the warp the wings add a peerless grace and manouverablity, however when summoned are little more than massive distended claws sprouting from the creatures back, useless as and aid to flight and only sutalbe for threatening gestures adding to the daemon's frustration at being forced into the mortal realm. That is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 In friendly games where you opponent is aware that the daemon with wings can't fly it isn't a problem though. I personally don't know of anyone that is that strict with the WYSIWYG. Lost count of the number of marines or chaos marines that I've seen without chainswords, holstered bolt pistols or grenades but never seen anyone complain about it. WYSIWYG was designed to clarify what each model is armed with, specifically with conversions in mind, if you have an opponent that you have explained to that he can't fly with the wings and they are happy with this then you're golden. Pulling someone up on something minor like WYSIWYG in a friendly where there is no official model available and your now defunct bloodthirster is sat on the shelf gathering dust is against the spirit of the game in my opinion and being more than a little petty for such a minor infraction. It even has a picture of a bloodthirster on the page describing Summoned Greater Daemons and a bloodletter on the page describing Summoned Lesser Daemons. Since the last edition most people that I know realise that you can't take the proper daemons in armies anymore and are more than happy to let people use bloodletters or daemonettes as lesser daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 You can always argue it's against WSIWYG rules but it is a GD, it even says so on the box so you could really argue it either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Lost count of the number of marines or chaos marines that I've seen without chainswords, holstered bolt pistols or grenades but never seen anyone complain about it. because you dont have to model basic gear on models . you have to model upgrades and you cant have identical upgrades be two different things . Puting wings aside which are clearly covered in the chaos FAQ . What if someone had two chaplains in his army . But only one would be a chaplain and the other would be mefiston . would that be ok . Or when you had 3x2 tau suits which seem to have identical upgrades , but then your opponent informs you that they are in fact 3 different weapon set ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Lost count of the number of marines or chaos marines that I've seen without chainswords, holstered bolt pistols or grenades but never seen anyone complain about it. because you dont have to model basic gear on models . you have to model upgrades and you cant have identical upgrades be two different things . Puting wings aside which are clearly covered in the chaos FAQ . What if someone had two chaplains in his army . But only one would be a chaplain and the other would be mefiston . would that be ok . Or when you had 3x2 tau suits which seem to have identical upgrades , but then your opponent informs you that they are in fact 3 different weapon set ups. However he don't have any other models with wings from the looks of it. A Khârn stand in (no wings). And another PA Lord (not specified whether he'll have wings or not). Also you can still build the DP without wings and then there won't be a problem with wings at all. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Lost count of the number of marines or chaos marines that I've seen without chainswords, holstered bolt pistols or grenades but never seen anyone complain about it. because you dont have to model basic gear on models . you have to model upgrades and you cant have identical upgrades be two different things . Puting wings aside which are clearly covered in the chaos FAQ . What if someone had two chaplains in his army . But only one would be a chaplain and the other would be mefiston . would that be ok . Or when you had 3x2 tau suits which seem to have identical upgrades , but then your opponent informs you that they are in fact 3 different weapon set ups. As long as he tells me before the game, yeah it'd be fine with me. If you are that worried about it you can just ask to see an army list it's not that difficult. Going by the rule book "the most important rule is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours." If he wants to use wings on his GD and his opponent is happy with that he is more than entitled to do so, it's in the rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Canoness Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Everyone knows what a greater daemon is - wings or no. A bloodthirster is a greater daemon (wysiwyg) that just so happens to come with wings. I'd say the wysiswyg of the greater daemon being a greater daemon overrules the fact that he has wings of not. If you have a 'counts as' bloodthirster it will have wings since bloodthirsters have wings on the model. But a blood thirster can countas a greater daemon without wings, so a counts as blood thirster can count as a greater daemon without wings. Easy-peasy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 All that the chaos faq says about wings is that models with wings do not count as having jump packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 For the sake of this discussion: Q. Does taking ‘Wings’ classify a model as jumpinfantry? A. No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry. Note that the model must actually be converted to have a pair of wings rather than a jump pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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