Tactical Squad Tactica

[Master Melta]

All,

 

Of all my three armies, I have the most experience with Codex: Space Marines. I typically run Rhino riding Tactical squads and have them equiped to remain tactically felxible with some semi-roles like anit-hvy armor metla squads, plasma toting anti-elites and objective clearing dual flamer squads. All that being said, I feel that my tactical squad tactics are really just not where they should be. Never feel like I get what I should out of these guys and would like some advice.

 

Trends I've noticed with my tactical squads:

1. I typically run 1 squad with a nearly automatic combat squad loadout. Las Cannon and 5 goons in the backfield, Las-plas razorback(always feel the need for more las cannons!) with dual plasma rolling around. I like the flexibility here in that I can shoot two heavy weapons(The las cannons) at transports/walkers/MC and can close in for some rapid fire goodness on reduced/small number squads. This is a decent loadout vs MEQ, but obviously larger hordish armies require some finesse. One thing that does happen is the backfield squad is typically 4 extra wounds for the las cannon, defensive plus, but those goons are otherwise wasted. The other squad can really pack a punch at close range but is so small one good torrent of fire or assault reduces them down to pretty ineffective output. While I understand these risks, from the galleries persepective, is this a viable combo?

 

2. The other typical squad is dual melta with a multi-melta and fist. Full squad in a rhino. They are best against armored targets, but can still rapid fire. I like this squad and it is typically the main objective taker/offensive tactical squad.

 

3. The flamer squad is only run at 2000+ games. The rest of my army is typically elite/walker heavy. No land raiders, land speeders, scouts, bikes, etc.

 

3. I always feel like I am trying to protect the two typical tactical squads and play defensively with them. Hiding the transports, rushing them behind cover but not towards the enemy, only getting out to rapid fire if the transport is popped(forced) or if the enemy unwisely exposes some soft infantry near by, which of course most good players don't do. Are these truly defenive units like this, or should I be more agressive with them? It feels like the strength of the squad is staying power and their role isnt to kill, but to just weather the storm and slowly die off to attrition, hoping to remain alive late in the game.

 

I've looked for tactica on basic marines but was hoping to get some rules to live by so to speak, since it feels like I am playing with rules to survive by.

 

Is 2 squads enough up to 2k? Does combat squading reduce the effectivness so much I should shy away from it? I am worried that I just don't have enough of the almighty bolter, in concentrated numbers, for these squads to really be effective. How do I set up Rapid fire killzones? How to maximize the rhino rush? Things like that. I have lots of support for these guys but I want to really get the most out them as well.

 

It could be my playstyle. I like to react, which often times give the enemy initiative. I feel that always trying to take that initative forces me to have really tough, durable forces.

 

Well that's it, I hope it makes sense. I can field questions as they arise.

 

Thanks!

 

MM

[spartan249]

Trying to protect your tactical squads and playing defensively with them is the correct way to use them when you have 2 squads. You're not killing anything very quickly with them, and they're very vulnerable when used offensively, as it requires you to expose them to utilize their firepower fully.

 

Honestly, I don't have much else to say where Tactical Squads are concerned. I don't like how weak they are, so I use Scouts as my troops and use the 300+ points I save from that to invest in units that I know will perform for me.

 

C:SM got the short stick as far as troops go. C:BA, C:SW, C:GK, and C:CSM got some cost efficient and powerful troops available, and thus composing the meat of their list with their troops is a solid plan. For C:SM... not so much.

[DarkGuard]

Protecting Tactical squads? What is this madness! :)

 

I've been using Tactical squads offensively for a while now and they work well. Dual flamers followed by rapid fire put a dent in anything that hasn't got a 2+ save, while dual plasma can annihilate whole elite units and MCs. Dual melta I'm not a fan of though, as I feel Tactical squads on the attack should be geared for infantry, while melta is very much tanks. Of course, when I say dual I'm talking about taking a combi-weapon on the Sergeant, nearly essential IMO if you want your squad doing well for less.

 

As for your load outs, I used number 1 today, and it's seen a few battles now. Honestly, I may revert to the the plasma cannon, as for me the lascannon keeps on missing, it's ridiculous. I got 3 shots off with it today before it died, and it missed every single one. On the other hand, I like plasma weapons and the ability to combat squad them down. If you move the Razorback only 6" then you've got 6 plasma shots on one unit, which is devastating, especially from a 10 man squad. Or they can stick to the unit, still have range thanks to the plasma gun, and just rely on numbers. The best thing about it is that they can do well as a big squad or two small ones, which means you've got more units for multi-objectives, or less KPs for KP games.

 

Load out 2 I'm not a fan of. I'd prefer to stick anti-infantry guns on a Tactical squad that's offensive. They all have boltguns, meaning GEQ and at a pinch MEQ are the best units for them to shoot at. So why give them anti-tank guns? Dual flamers for GEQ and hordes and the ability to assault, although they do well against MEQ thanks to weight of wounds. Plasma for MEQ, TEQ, light tanks and MCs, although thanks to the fact they can have 2 shots, and the boltguns they can also do GEQ and hordes well. Heavy weapon in this squad should always be a MM however, as you're moving forward and will therefore get it in range. I use a dual flamer unit at the moment in a 3 point attack with a Sternguard squad (sometimes with Libby), and an Honour Guard squad with Chapter Master. Pretty much all bases covered, and it generally does well.

 

If you're taking melta squads, I feel they do well with combat squads as well. You'll hardly ever fire both the meltagun and combi-melta with the MM thanks to the range bands and the heavy nature of the MM, and as you're wasting the boltgun shots anyway and are just relying on melta you don't need the boltguns. But then the boltguns are also handy in case you run across GEQ.

 

Of course, in objective games you only need one Tactical squad alive, while in KP games they're more expendable than your elite units. The thing is, for me you need at least two Tactical squads in a C:SM army, they are the backbone of the army, and Scouts should only be used to supplement the army, rather than be the backbone, but that's my view.

[Ming]

I still rely on tac squads to play a important role beyond objective sitting in my lists, in part because the other choices are cost prohibitive when weighing damage caused to survivability. Scouts are somewhat of a point filler (typically as snipers, cause they are cheap). For a while I've been using 10 man tac squads with MM, FL, PF, and sometimes CFL, in a rhino +/- HKM. More recently I've turned back to las-plas squads, or combat squads in las-plas razors, with PWs or PFs. I try to keep the combiweapon count low if I can squeeze in another fast unit or boots on the ground, especially when a combi-plas is the same price as plas. Supporting these squads as recent as last night are combat devs squads with 2 MLs and 1 PC.

 

I do like the idea above of having a combi plas/PF sergeant, PG trooper, and 3 other marines in a las-plas razor. I'd call that the idea of the day!

[GreatEscape_13]

I like an objective squatting 10-man tactical with heavy bolter, plasmagun, and sgt w/ a bit of close combat oomph for protection, with a rhino. The rhino stays out of sight ready to swoop in and re-deploy/rescue if needed. And they hold the line pretty well--particularly with cover, and even better with my techmarine boosted rubble cover saves.

 

That's usually my most effective/favorite version. I find that every other troop for other armies can do their specialty better, but nothing beats tactical squads for flexibility. You know--tactics. Heh.

 

Cheers.

[DarkGuard]

I do like the idea above of having a combi plas/PF sergeant, PG trooper, and 3 other marines in a las-plas razor. I'd call that the idea of the day!

 

Woah, who said anything about power fists?

 

It has been well recorded on this forum that I am not a big fan of power fists on Tactical squads. Indeed, the only time to use them is when you're Stubborn, and perhaps using Chapter Tactics as then you have no viable option to break from combat easily (even more if you're Stubborn). However, most of the time power fists only marginally increase the Tactical squad's melee ability for a significant points cost. Not to mention that Tactical squads are shooty and shouldn't be in combat.

 

I've heard arguments that power fists are handy for insurance etc, but 25pts for insurance is quite a lot. You'll still get steam-rolled by elite combat units, and you'll steam-roll weak combat unit just fine without a power fist. In the end they only help against some other Marine squads (like Tactical squads), MCs on their last wound, and walkers, and all of these should be engaged with another unit or with plasma/melta, which is cheaper. It's a niche insurance choice at best, and 25pts for it is way to much IMO.

[Koremu]

Tactical squads are shooty and shouldn't be in combat.

I disagree with you. In my book, the best use of a Tactical Squad is as a supporting unit to an Elite in CC.

 

The obvious example (and one which all Dreadnought users should know and love) is to use a Dread and a Tactical Squad in combination. When faced with a Squad with a 'hidden' Power Fist/Klaw, you can then use the Tactical Squad to engage the Squad Leader, preventing him from swinging at the Dreadnought, while it tears up his regular guys.

 

Conversely, if charged by an Elite unit with many anti-Dread weapons (such as Assault Terminators), the presence of the Tactical Squad will force the Elite unit to engage the Squad, thereby dissipating attacks which could have otherwise harmed the Dread.

 

 

The other common combination is to use Tactical Squads and Assault Terminators together, handily nullifying the disadvantage of Tactical Dreadnought Armour - its inability to overrun a fleeing enemy.

[DarkGuard]

Certainly used in such ways they can be useful in combat, but on their own Tactical squads shouldn't expected to beat anything in combat that's slightly better than them. Perhaps I should rephrase my last post to what I should have said now I think about it, "shoot the assaulty and assault the shooty" (unless you have support)!

[Something Wycked]

Tactical Marine Tactica? I've got this one down to a science.

 

Inflate to ten models, add a hammer to the sergeant, two Psycannons and Psybolts and you're good.

 

Oh wait :cuss

 

I'll throw a vote DarkGuard's way. I've never had a Tactical squad perform well for me, but what he says makes a lot of sense. If I tried again with Tacticals, using some of his load outs, I'd likely do better.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Tactical squads are shooty and shouldn't be in combat.

I disagree with you. In my book, the best use of a Tactical Squad is as a supporting unit to an Elite in CC.

 

The obvious example (and one which all Dreadnought users should know and love) is to use a Dread and a Tactical Squad in combination. When faced with a Squad with a 'hidden' Power Fist/Klaw, you can then use the Tactical Squad to engage the Squad Leader, preventing him from swinging at the Dreadnought, while it tears up his regular guys.

 

Conversely, if charged by an Elite unit with many anti-Dread weapons (such as Assault Terminators), the presence of the Tactical Squad will force the Elite unit to engage the Squad, thereby dissipating attacks which could have otherwise harmed the Dread.

 

 

The other common combination is to use Tactical Squads and Assault Terminators together, handily nullifying the disadvantage of Tactical Dreadnought Armour - its inability to overrun a fleeing enemy.

 

:D

 

As a Templar, I have access to pistol and sword Marines with re-rolls to hit.

10 volley and charge Ork boyz.

10 shots. 6.7 hit. 3.33 dead. Just like the Tacs would.

 

Now onto the exciting stuff.

10 Tacs. 20 attacks. 10 hit. 5 wound. 4.2 dead.

10 Initiates. 30 attacks. 22.5 hit. 11.25 wound. 9.4 dead

 

In further rounds of combat:

10 Tacs. 10 attacks. 5 hit. 2.5 wound. 2.1 dead

10 Initiates. 20 attacks. 15 hit. 7.5 wound. 6.25 dead

 

Templars are obviously way superior to Tacticals in combat.

They are much more in sync with their ELITES and can actually help them out in combat.

 

So with experience with TROOPS who can actually bully non-MEq infantry pretty well, I think mêlée with Tacs is a bad idea.

I don't think rushing in Tacticals to help the ELITES is anything better than 'well I can't shoot the baddies if the combat goes on past this turn, so I might as well throw the Tacs into it too.' kind of a thing.

 

Why is your opponent allowing you to lock up his PK Nob? He just deploys it behind his front line, and rolls it around towards the Dread in a bid to move into base contact.

Right?

 

The Dread has two base attacks, or three for an Ironclad. So you are getting, on average, 1-2 hits per assault phase. How will that rip up any decent number of Orks?

 

+++

 

Why wouldn't the opponents Terminators just mug all your Tacticals first, and get, say, 5 extra attacks that will kill two more Tacs, and then wait for the Dread to come to them?

Or conversely, why wouldn't they just charge the Dread with all their guys?

 

I am sorry if I sound critical, but I think what is being said is not sound advice.

 

If you think of Tacticals as being rugged Sisters of Battle, you're getting close to it. They are not Chaos Marines, and they certainly are not Templars, Wolves or Bloods.

Which is actually why so many people umm and ahh about sticking with Codex Marines - they want heroic guys they can take heads with, not slink away via combat tactics and pewpew with, which is more reminiscent of Eldar or Tau thinking.

 

Thoughts?

[DarkGuard]

I'd say you make a lot of sense Marshal Wilhelm. Of course, in some assaults numbers mean everything, and so throwing the Tactical Marines in could help. However, thanks to Combat Tactics you have to think differently with them, especially as their ranged and melee damage is less than say Wolves, and in some cases in even Blood Angels.

 

Here's another idea for Tactical squads, not sure if I've mentioned it yet. You know that really cool overused Salamander character yeah? You know, Vulkan He'stan. Take him, dump him in a Terminator squad, Sternguard squad, bin, whatever, you just want him for the twin-links. Give your Tactical squads a combi-flamer, flamer and MM in a Rhino, maybe give them a fist as you can't choose to run away. Roll up to your MEQ unit, making sure to use all manner of tricks to bunch them up (like tank shock) and then get out and let lose with your weapons. If you're done it right you're getting at least 8 hits with each flamer, maybe even more if your opponent is kind. Twice. And those require re-rolls to wound. That's 12 wounds from 16 hits! And then you've still got your bolters. Trust me, it works. There's only so many armour saves your opponent can pass before he fails loads. I've seen this wipe out Marine squads to one or two guys, and destroy Necron Warrior units, preventing them from getting back up because no one else is nearby. Oh, and the midfield MM got a lot better due to the fact you re-roll misses with it.

 

So yeah, if people want Tactical squads that can put out insanely good damage, take a look at the above unit, although you need Vulkan to make them insane, although they are solid on their own.

[Koremu]

As a Templar, I have access to pistol and sword Marines with re-rolls to hit.

 

That's nice for you, however we're talking about Tacticals, which means C:SM, so Templar units are irrelevant.

 

Why is your opponent allowing you to lock up his PK Nob? He just deploys it behind his front line, and rolls it around towards the Dread in a bid to move into base contact.

Right?

Somebody shot them.

 

Why wouldn't the opponents Terminators just mug all your Tacticals first, and get, say, 5 extra attacks that will kill two more Tacs, and then wait for the Dread to come to them?

Or conversely, why wouldn't they just charge the Dread with all their guys?

Because they can't. If the Terminators are in Assault range of both the Dreadnought and the Tacticals, they have to engage both units if they are able to without breaking Squad coherency. That's why the Dreadnought & Tacticals operate in close association.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

As a Templar, I have access to pistol and sword Marines with re-rolls to hit.

 

That's nice for you, however we're talking about Tacticals, which means C:SM, so Templar units are irrelevant.

 

Why is your opponent allowing you to lock up his PK Nob? He just deploys it behind his front line, and rolls it around towards the Dread in a bid to move into base contact.

Right?

Somebody shot them.

 

Why wouldn't the opponents Terminators just mug all your Tacticals first, and get, say, 5 extra attacks that will kill two more Tacs, and then wait for the Dread to come to them?

Or conversely, why wouldn't they just charge the Dread with all their guys?

Because they can't. If the Terminators are in Assault range of both the Dreadnought and the Tacticals, they have to engage both units if they are able to without breaking Squad coherency. That's why the Dreadnought & Tacticals operate in close association.

 

• I was showing what a solid combat unit could do, which provides an understanding for the Tacticals, who are not solid... at all.

Sometimes it is hard to gauge what a unit can do even within its own Dex, so that is what the compare and contrast was for.

 

• The Ork player removes Orks from the back of the mob, and keeps the Boyz still screening the Nob.

 

• You don't have to charge any unit if you don't want to, and just because you are charging Unit A does not mean you have to charge Unit B even if you can.

 

pg 34 BBB:

ASSAULTING MULTIPLE ENEMY UNITS

"....Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units...."

[Koremu]

Keep reading, it says you MUST engage as many models as possible.

 

And in any case, if you're doing it right there's not room for more than one 40mm base to cantact the Dread.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Keep reading, it says you MUST engage as many models as possible.

 

And in any case, if you're doing it right there's not room for more than one 40mm base to cantact the Dread.

 

MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS:

 

Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many models as possible.

 

This is to do with a 1 v 1 situation.

 

The assaulting unit cannot assault a second unit unless you want them to. If they are wanted to, then they would have to "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many models as possible."

 

+++

 

If you have stacked the Tacticals well, and only one Terminator can get at the Dread, you do this:

 

__X

__O

_OO

_OO

 

The X is the Dread.

The top O is the contacting Termie.

The next rank of two Os are in base contact with the contacting Termie.

The last two Os are in base contact with those, and are within 2" of the contacting Termie

 

All get to assault the Dread.

[Koremu]

No, that would be an illegal move. If the Terminators are able to contact the Tacticals, they must do so.

[Master Melta]

"Stay on target."

 

 

"Stay on target!"

 

 

Right, sorry. Summing things up, PF are still debatable, but a good loadout to maximize tactical output appears to be Flamer/Combi-Flamer/MM or PC in a rhino. Leave the melta, anti-tank, anti-elite, to other more gooder at that roll units, that can support the tacts.

 

I think I will start running 2 x double flamer with MM, and the aformentioned Las/Plas-Razor PLas for 3 units. Now I just need to figure out what I am going to get rid of to throw in the that 3rd squad.....

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

Im sorry for seeming like th ignorant player here, but can someone perhaps enlighten me to all the abbriviations used in this entire topic? I see so many I have no idea what they are, therefore cannot comprehend what is discussed.

[Master Melta]

PG=plasma gun

PC=plasma cannon

PF=power fist

CF/P/M= Combi-Flamer/Plasma/melta

MM=Multi Melta

PW= Power weapon

etc.

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

PG=plasma gun

PC=plasma cannon

PF=power fist

CF/P/M= Combi-Flamer/Plasma/melta

MM=Multi Melta

PW= Power weapon

etc.

 

 

Aye, now I see the light in the wisdom shared :tu:

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

Right, sorry. Summing things up, PF are still debatable, but a good loadout to maximize tactical output appears to be Flamer/Combi-Flamer/MM or PC in a rhino.

 

You can choose which weapons can shoot out the access hatch of the rhinos?

[thade]

And in any case, if you're doing it right there's not room for more than one 40mm base to cantact the Dread.

This is money right here. Setting up your charges such that you can appropriately engage problem-models (i.e. vicious CC ICs, buried PFs, etc) so that they can't choose whom they swing at is vital. If that buried PF has to swing at my unit, I'll lose a marine or two...but my Dread goes unrisked and will mulch that enemy squad unchallenged. Just be sure - when you pull casualties from the unit - that you leave said problem-model engaged. :(

 

The reverse also holds; if my opponent just charges me blindly, you can bet my power fist was in a spot difficult for him to get to...so I can put the fist where I'd like it to be (i.e. in contact with an IC, Dread, whatever).

 

My theory on PFs is very simple. If the unit may have to push forward, it should have one. As such, the only infantry squads in my lists that do not get PFs are Devastators. Then again, I'm pretty unconventional in my tactical squad load outs...I very often bring tac squads of 8 with only boltguns (and the PF). When I do go to ten, I will throw a Flamer in there and once in a while a plasma cannon or heavy bolter. Tacticals are pro anti-infantry with rapid-fire, so I feel they should be equipped to help them with their talent. I've got other anti-vehicle solutions in my lists (Devs, Riflemen, Sternguard combi-melta brigades, etc).

[thade]

Right, sorry. Summing things up, PF are still debatable, but a good loadout to maximize tactical output appears to be Flamer/Combi-Flamer/MM or PC in a rhino.

 

You can choose which weapons can shoot out the access hatch of the rhinos?

Yes, you certainly can. Why, I wonder, would you think otherwise? :(

 

Given the recent discussions on AV14, I'm opposed to MMs in general, especially the Rhino/MM "bunker". If that Land Raider is within MM doom-range, it's already achieved it's desired effective range; payload is delivered. The merits of using a MM as anti-infantry are certainly interesting. I think the one case I'd very much want something so up-front as 4xMM Devastator squads would be if I was castling up against a Draigo-wing.

 

Hmmm.....

[Sgt. Tiberus Satio]

Yes, you certainly can. Why, I wonder, would you think otherwise? :blink:

 

I always assumed bolters can be fired only through the access points, but that can be due to the only armies I've witnessed at the time were running a lot of guns for mowing down troops.

 

 

I have my tacticals mixed with weapons, an interesting point I've heard a lot being down nationwide in some groups are side bars to "hot swap" groups or troops out for the same point value to compensate for the change of opponents. I've also had my fair share of killing deamon princes with bolt pistols before combat.

[thade]

You can choose. :blink: But you still have to obey the basic firing rules; i.e. if the transport moved, the troops inside counts as having moved for the turn...so they can't fire heavies nor the long-ranged single shot from rapid-fire weapons. Assault weapons are okay all around, and (finally) more recent FAQs have made it clear you can in fact fire templates from those Rhino hatches.