The Legions After

[Arkangilos]

Ok, so recently I have seen some posts talking about how it seemed wrong that the Ultras took the reigns, and that it was wrong that the Imperial Fists were treated badly, even though they were at the Seige of Terra and the Ultras were not. I myself am guilty of this arguement, but I still do see it other ways.

 

So this is how I see it, and please feel free to critique, just keep it civilized. No hating, though you can give opposing views.

 

So, with the remaining loyalists we have this:

 

Ultramarines, the least damaged and the ones who are the most Orginized take the lead in the Scouring. It only makes sense that they would be the ones who took command. Also, this isn't the first time Guilliman returned to a "dead" father after a "great betrayal." You have to remember, when he was growing up, he was leading an army in the surrounding lands of Macragge, and his fathers advisor led an army against his father, and killed him. When that happened, Guilliman returned, killed the traitors, found a dead father, and then had to reorginized the government. The exact same thing happened in the Horus Heresy. So, with this, can you immagine how he felt? He did not want to take chances, because this happened to him twice, so he was adament on the Codex.

 

Imperial Fists, a battered, battle wary legion. They had defended Terra with the Blood Angels with everything they had. By the time Horus was defeated and the Ultras arrived, they had suffered much, and as such would not logically fufill a leadership role. Again, the Ultra's are the best for this. I mean, let us look at the other legions. They are all almost dead or their primarchs are dead. It is completely understandable, however, that they would not want to become codex, or even listen to Guilliman telling them what to do. They had fought, they had found the Emperor, they had saved him, so why should the Ultras tell them what to do? I can agree with this (in fact, normally this is my argument), however, they were letting their anger and depression get to them. Not a good choice for leadership, and in desperate need of reorginization. However, it was wrong for the Imperial Navy to fire on them, though they too just survived the worst.

 

Blood Angels, this legion lost its primarch. It is beginning to feel the grips of Curse. On top of that, they too have been severly battered. They chose to fall under the codex, and saw that Guilliman was right. That is good enough for me on them.

 

The Raven Guard, this chapter was extremely damaged, so they really had no choice. I mean, they really could do nothing as a legion anymore anyways.

 

White Scars, Sallamanders, and Iron Hands I am not really too sure about, to be honest. But I mean, even they saw the value in the Codex, because eventually they changed.

 

Dark Angels, they had their own problems. They had this whole secret that they wanted kept, and a whole bunch of people to hunt. To bring attention to themselves by refusing would have been damaging, and could have ruined them. They also had lost their primarch.

 

Space Wolves, lets face it. They don't care, and even if they did, it obviously failed. But I mean, their stubbornness is far worse than the Fists, and there is nothing you can say that would have changed their minds. Besides, from my impression they weren't a large legion anyways, but I could be wrong.

 

So the point of this is that the Ultramarines, while I may not really like them, were really needed. Their changes did in fact help the Imperium rebuild, and it actually kept the legions alive far longer.

 

Please, discuss :rolleyes:

[Olis]

In regards to the Salamanders I believe they were in a similar situation to the Raven Guard, what with the massacre at Isstvan V. And as for the Iron Hands I think they split into the Clan Companies after Ferrus died (but I could be wrong - if someone could give the yea or nay on that, that'd be great).

 

As far as your post is concerned, Telanicus, I think I pretty much agree with you on this. All I'm doing is adding (hopefully correct) info. :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As evidenced in Fulgrim, the Iron Hands were already split into Clans prior to the Heresy, likely a change inflicted on the Terran Legionnaires after the Emperor picked up Ferrus on Medusa. The Hands did not, however, simply accept the codex as Telanicus suggests, however. The only things they've really agreed to from it are squad marking/designations s and a limt on the number of Marines in a single Chapter. Considering their penchant for splitting forces and multiple leaders, it only makes sense that they would have accepted the need to break the Legions down into Chapters, so they probably didn't fight that part of it and simply allowed the Brazen Claws and Red Talons to go their own ways with little complaint, but that's about the extent of it.

 

Talking about who should have taken charge after Horus fell and the Emperor's entombment. . . as much as I hate to admit it, Guilliman was really the only choice. He had the majority force and the logistical background to see the Scouring successfully accomplished in good time. Dorn was the only other surviving Primarch who could have given Guilliman a run for his money, but he was too busy wallowing in his grief and then trying to fight his way into/out of the Iron Cage to be of much use. Sanguinius would have been a better choice but he was dead; the AdMech might have pushed for Ferrus to take charge, but he was dead too. Vulkan and Corax were too busy rebuilding their forces. The Lion was gone but was too anti-social for the job anyway, and the job of running the Imperium probably would not have appealled to the wild children, Russ and the Khan.

[Arkangilos]

As evidenced in Fulgrim, the Iron Hands were already split into Clans prior to the Heresy, likely a change inflicted on the Terran Legionnaires after the Emperor picked up Ferrus on Medusa. The Hands did not, however, simply accept the codex as Telanicus suggests, however. The only things they've really agreed to from it are squad marking/designations s and a limt on the number of Marines in a single Chapter. Considering their penchant for splitting forces and multiple leaders, it only makes sense that they would have accepted the need to break the Legions down into Chapters, so they probably didn't fight that part of it and simply allowed the Brazen Claws and Red Talons to go their own ways with little complaint, but that's about the extent of it.

 

Talking about who should have taken charge after Horus fell and the Emperor's entombment. . . as much as I hate to admit it, Guilliman was really the only choice. He had the majority force and the logistical background to see the Scouring successfully accomplished in good time. Dorn was the only other surviving Primarch who could have given Guilliman a run for his money, but he was too busy wallowing in his grief and then trying to fight his way into/out of the Iron Cage to be of much use. Sanguinius would have been a better choice but he was dead; the AdMech might have pushed for Ferrus to take charge, but he was dead too. Vulkan and Corax were too busy rebuilding their forces. The Lion was gone but was too anti-social for the job anyway, and the job of running the Imperium probably would not have appealled to the wild children, Russ and the Khan.

 

Ah, I agree with this :D

 

(Especially with the Sanguinius part) ^_^

[Legatus]

Ultramarines, the least damaged and the ones who are the most Orginized take the lead in the Scouring. It only makes sense that they would be the ones who took command.

You seem to have the relevant background down pat, however, I feel you may be glancing over one important aspect. Or maybe you didn't mean to and that is just how it comes accross. After the Heresy, Guilliman did not just "take command". He did not say "I am in charge now, I hope none of you Brothers has a problem with that". He became one of the first High Lords, which suggests that there had to be some official agreement among the leadership of the Imperium that Guilliman should get that job. But admittedly that bit of the background has not really been repeated that much since the 2nd Edition. Here is the relevant part from the Codex Ultramarines (which unfortunately has been cut from the bacground that is repeated in the Codex Space Marines).

 

 

THE HIGH LORDS

By the end of the Horus Heresy the galaxy was in turmoil once more. The armies of the Imperium were destroyed or scattered. Thousands of spacecraft had been lost in the conflict. Worse of all, the Emperor was gone. Though not actually dead he was lost to the living world and his spirit cast into the vortex of Chaos. The guidance which the Emperor had given the Imperium for hundreds of years was suddenly absent. Such was the power and influence of the Emperor that it was impossible to imagine a single successor inheriting his mantle. For a while it seemed as if the Imperium would surely break apart: that the Cult Mechanicus and the workshops of Mars would divorce themselves from the Imperium, that Primarchs and Space Marines would establish their own empires in the depths of space.

 

What happens next is a tribute to the skill and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor.

 

History does not record the names of those first High Lords. Indeed, there are few records of the early centuries of the Imperium. History and legend remain strangely intertwined, describing in almost mythic terms the dark and desperate times that followed the defeat of Horus. However, the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that their Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, was one of these High Lords. He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces.

 

The High Lords established the divisions of the Imperium that remain familiar to this day. It was they who formalised the title of Adeptus which is used by all who are servants of the Emperor. The first High Lords laid the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary Lords. One of the most important of their accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armies. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the fleet, and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines.

 

The descriptions in Codex Space Marines instead chose to focus on how "Guilliman rallied the remaining defenders and kept the Imperium together", unfortunately omiting these more political aspects in favour of more Space Marine Primarch glory.

[Marshal Rohr]

Didnt we have one of these yesterday? And the week before that? And the one before that?

 

Pretty much since I got here, we've discussed this to death. Did the search bar break? Is it necessary to rehash this over and over and over?

 

Maybe someone should collect all the fluff in one place and say: Hi, welcome to the BnC, here is all the stuff we have talked about for a billion years, read it before bringing it up.

[Arkangilos]

Didnt we have one of these yesterday? And the week before that? And the one before that?

 

Pretty much since I got here, we've discussed this to death. Did the search bar break? Is it necessary to rehash this over and over and over?

 

Maybe someone should collect all the fluff in one place and say: Hi, welcome to the BnC, here is all the stuff we have talked about for a billion years, read it before bringing it up.

 

If you aren't goign to be productive, then don't comment. I mean seriously, there is always teh "ignore" option.

 

Also, I have said that there have been parts of this that has been said, but its always one side getting bent out of shape.

 

@ Legatus:

 

Oh good point. I was not trying to say he took command by his own, I was just saying it was logical that he had been given the command. No one else was capable. So sorry if that was misconstrued.

[Captain Idaho]

I think there some fundamental aspects of the "events" revolving around the reorganisation of the Imperium following the Heresy.

 

Firstly, the OP describes the other Legions and Primarchs in such a way that gives the impression they were unable to resist the changes in the Imperium. This is misleading and other people have echoed these sentiments, so I would like to respond to this aspect.

 

There were three Primarchs and their Legions which resisted the splitting of the Legions into Chapters, whilst Guilliman was supported by both Corax and Khan in this idea. That's an even split. There has NEVER been anything said about what the Legions and Primarchs thought about everything else which was changed at the time, or Guilliman's role in those times. The dispute was purely about splitting the Legion in size.

 

Incidently, Ferrus Manus was always a supporter of Guilliman until it was changed to him having that accident. The one with Fulgrim and the Daemon blade.

 

Next it also appears to have been missed that what we know has changed slightly. No longer are the Ultramarines going through the Heresy unscathed. There will be bloody murder on Calth, mark my words. There are also rumours of their later plans being quite big, which implies more death along the way.

 

So the concept the Ultramarines were pivitol through virtue of being bullies in size isn't quite true.

 

Now, most will sensibly accept the Ultramarines numbers, specialist skills and recruitment advantages makes them prime candidates to be most influential in the aftermath of the Scouring, coupled with the expertise of Guilliman (and stability, since his "rivals" are dead or gone loopy/missing (Dorn and Johnson) means their pre-eminence is understandable and neccessary.

[Codicier Lucion]

Didnt we have one of these yesterday? And the week before that? And the one before that?

 

Pretty much since I got here, we've discussed this to death. Did the search bar break? Is it necessary to rehash this over and over and over?

 

Maybe someone should collect all the fluff in one place and say: Hi, welcome to the BnC, here is all the stuff we have talked about for a billion years, read it before bringing it up.

 

Someone should make an FAQ thread for this sort of thing.

 

Though I really hate how some Ultramarines players keep trying to chalk this up to Guilliman simply being the best at everything. Not many on this site, mostly ones either writing codexes or in my local store.

 

As for the Ultramarines. I can accept that they took a major role in the scouring and the rebuilding of the Imperium. It seems to be one of the very few major actions the Ultramarines have performed outside of Ultramar since the Heresy.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Maybe someone should collect all the fluff in one place and say: Hi, welcome to the BnC, here is all the stuff we have talked about for a billion years, read it before bringing it up.

:P

That'd be like 400 pages of stuff!

 

 

As for the Ultramarines. I can accept that they took a major role in the scouring and the rebuilding of the Imperium. It seems to be one of the very few major actions the Ultramarines have performed outside of Ultramar since the Heresy.

lolwut

You do realize that the Ultramarines have more recorded battles than anyone, right?

I don't mean in terms of what they do in the fluff, but rather the fluff available for us to reference.

• campaign against the Vektates of Arkenath
  
• Battle of the Furious Abyss
  
• Battle Of Calth
  
• 3rd Rothern I pacification of the Great Heresy
  
• Battle against the Star-Striders of Crioth
  
• Retaliation for the Heavenfall Massacres
  
• The Fall of Chundrabad
  
• the cleansing of Sabulorb
  
• The Pyra Crusades
  
• the Zeist Campaign
  
• the Damocles Crusade
  
• Cleansing of Copul IV
  
• The Siege of Belios
  
• the first Balur Crusade
  
• Battle Of Corinth
  
• the Corinthian Crusade
  
• Siege of Tulwa
  
• The Crusat Minor planetstrike
  
• the Damocles Gulf Crusade
  
• the Joran Retaliation
  
• First Tyrannic War & Battle of Macragge
  
• Barchi Scouring
  
• The Scouring of Ultramar
  
• Scouring of Quintarn
  
• Battle Of Thrax
  
• The Siege of Zalathras
  
• campaign against Waaagh! Gutshredda in the Forgoil system
  
• battle for Bloodspire Hive and Jorun's World
  
• Purgation of Jhanna
  
• Assault on Black Reach
  
• Battle of Arconar
  
• battle in the Halamar Rift
  
• Battle of Knarts Landing
  
• Battle of the Sepulchre
  
• The World Engine
  
• The Trenor Uprising
  
• The Tamari rebellions
  
• Second War for Armageddon
  
• destruction of the Flame of Iniquity
  
• battle for Malbede
  
• Battle of Black Bone Road
  
• Horranveth Purgation
  
• Fall Of Damnos
  
• liberation of the Lagan system
  
• defense of Ikkyo
  
• Battle for Ichar IV
  
• defense of Dabenlar IV
  
• The Reclamation of Gorgo
  
• Forian Crusade
  
• destruction of Hunter of the Void
  
• The Battle Of Tarsis Ultra
  
• battle against Waaagh! Irontoof
  
• Battle Of Thracia
  
• Destruction of the Death of Virtue
  
• Nimbosa Campaign
  
• The Medusa V Campaign/Medusa Schism
  
• The Apocalyptic Battle for the Planetary Capital 'Vilius Coronis'
  

 

Only a handful of those took place in Ultramar.

[Pulse]

Recorded yeh.. because many Legions before had their records purged - otherwise the Ultramarines would be down about mid table, saying that though the Ulras as we all know were the best at actually sorting a conquered world.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I...

*facepalm*

You do realize that the Ultramarines have more recorded battles than anyone, right?

I don't mean in terms of what they do in the fluff, but rather the fluff available for us to reference.

 

But in terms of fluff....honestly...there's probably not much of anyone with as many battles under their belts as the Ultramarines. You can basically rule out any 3rd Founding or later Chapter as even being a possibility (since it'd be basically impossible for a 1000 Marine Chapter who came late to the game to compete with a 1000 man Chapter that had a massive head start in time existing as a Chapter......AND a 200+ years headstart when they were a 100,000 man Legion (or a 250,000 man Legion headstart for the Ultramarines).

Then you can add that the Ultramarines liberated more worlds than any other Legion during the Great Crusade, and then during the Scouring they were pretty much doing the vast majority of the fighting because the other Legions were broken....and then there's that list up there which is only the tiny fraction I happen to know about.

[Pulse]

But in terms of fluff....honestly...there's probably not much of anyone with as many battles under their belts as the Ultramarines. You can basically rule out any 3rd Founding or later Chapter as even being a possibility.

Then you can add that the Ultramarines liberated more worlds than any other Legion during the Great Crusade, and then during the Scouring they were pretty much doing the vast majority of the fighting because the other Legions were broken....and then there's that list up there which is only the tiny fraction I happen to know about.

I don't read more than like two replies above what i am about post so i tend to miss lots, damn my impatience. ;)

 

Also i think probably the Luna Wolves would have something to say about that as they are known in many fluff sources to have more victories (which indictates more battles) than any other Legion during the Great Crusade by a fair margin as far as i can remember.

 

I agree though if you add the Great Crusade and the Scouring, then yeh Ultramarines would have the more battles for a loyalist Legion.

[Arkangilos]

I am not trying to say the Ultras are the best, lol ;).

 

And please don't think I am saying they went through the Heresy unscathed, just they made it through with more troops.

 

Anyways, I am a big fan of the unheard idea that the first foundings (ie Legions), are about equal with their combat records. I don't think the Ultras have any longer a record than the BA, and other legions like that.

 

And also, I am not saying they took it by bullying, that was one of my points. They took it because they were the most "prepared."

[Pulse]

Anyways, I am a big fan of the unheard idea that the first foundings (ie Legions), are about equal with their combat records.

Preposterous says I.

 

Guards take him away!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Also untrue, Tel. One of Guilliman's more assholish commentaries was an off-hand remark to Alpharius that the XX Legion could never wrack up as many victories as the XIII. Dick move, Roboute. Dick move.

[Arkangilos]

Also untrue, Tel. One of Guilliman's more assholish commentaries was an off-hand remark to Alpharius that the XX Legion could never wrack up as many victories as the XIII. Dick move, Roboute. Dick move.

 

But that was brothers telling eachother that their legions are better.

 

Anytime you have competitions like that, you always talk about how great your achievements are and make say they are much greater than the others.

 

But also, the Alpha Legion was the youngest...

[Pulse]

Anytime you have competitions like that, you always talk about how great your achievements are and make say they are much greater than the others.

Thats why records are kept that prove battle records.

[Legatus]

Also untrue, Tel. One of Guilliman's more assholish commentaries was an off-hand remark to Alpharius that the XX Legion could never wrack up as many victories as the XIII. Dick move, Roboute. Dick move.

But that was brothers telling eachother that their legions are better.

 

Anytime you have competitions like that, you always talk about how great your achievements are and make say they are much greater than the others.

That statement came after a long debate where Guilliman had initially suggested that the Alpha Legion should adopt his "Codex" battle doctrines, which was adamantly resisted by Alpharius. While the Alpha Legion Index Astartes does not specifically say so, I assume that statement was meant to hammer home on the point that the Alpha Legion could have been more successful in the Crusade if they would adopt these methods. Basically, Guilliman offered Alpharius the tools to improve and be on par with his own Legion, which Alpharius pretty much took as an insult. And while you could still see that as a "my methods are better than your methods", you have to remember that Guilliman had compiled doctrines from several Primarchs, and had not just written down his own idears.

 

Either way, the new Horus heresy fluff states that Guilliman hadn't actually written the Codex Astartes doctrines during the Great Crusade and instead had written it during the Heresy, so that debate between Guilliman and Alpharius described in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion never actually happened.

[The Emperor's Champion]

so that debate between Guilliman and Alpharius described in the Index Astartes Alpha Legion never actually happened.

Heh...

LOLOLOLOLOL ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Also i think probably the Luna Wolves would have something to say about that as they are known in many fluff sources to have more victories (which indictates more battles) than any other Legion during the Great Crusade by a fair margin as far as i can remember.

 

"Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested it aid many times in his campaigns, and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horu's tally of victories was so high. The Raven GUard's records are curiously reticent concerning this period of history and Imperial historian have suspect that the taciturn Corax did not like the gregarious Horus and found him overly boastful and manipulative. It is rumored that, on one occasion, the two almost came to blows, and bloodshed was only averted when Corax removed his Legion from the Warmaster's command."

 

From the Raven Guard's Index Astartes article, page 99.

 

Horus was known to have taken credit where no credit was due. His tally of victories are untrustworthy.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

While there are some issues with the number of victories of the Luna Wolves, the next up in terms of victories were the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves. But some Index Astartes articles alude to the fact that often the Legions would fight cooperatively in a campaign, and in some cases, as in these with the Luna Wolves, only a few or even just one Legion got the credit. There is mention of how the Iron Warriors and the Ultramarines were left behind by the Luna Wolves to mop up the final resitance on a conquered world, just so the Luna Wolves could get to the next battle more quickly. The Luna Wolves were also apparently taking a lot of credit where the Raven Guard had done much of the work. The Iron Warriors participation in campaigns was often downplayed, and Perturabo was later merely referenced as "the ally who did the precise calculations" or something like that. The Imperial Fists were often held back while other Legions did the initial fighting, and then the Imperial Fists were called in to deliver the final blow. The Legions were not just all fighting their individual fights and collecting victories by themselves.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Not to mention the cases where the Ultramarines had to go and outright reconquer a world because the Luna Wolves didn't do it properly the first time....

Oh well, those worlds were surely better off having the Ultramarines set them straight, after they got reconquered, than if they had stayed conquered and devastated by the Luna Wolves.

 

 

"OH GOD NO!!! THE WHITE SUPER SPACE ROMANS HAVE DESTROYED EVERYTHING!!! WE CAN NEVER BOW TO THEM!!!!"

 

*a few weeks later*

"NOOOOOOOO!!!!!! BLUE SUPER SPACE ROMANS!?!?!???! OH THE HUMANITY!!!!! .....Wait...what do you mean they're only picking apart our warmachines? They're calling for our surrender?? They're offering to help us rebuild!??!!?? What is this I don't even"

[Captain Idaho]

With regards to the altercation between Guilliman and Alpharius, I find it quite interesting.

 

Certainly being told your Legion is doing it wrong is entirely insulting, regardless of Guilliman's intent. However, I believe there is more to it than that. Firstly we only have information from a single source, compiled by a potentially comprimised agent.

 

Secondly and more crucially we have a comment from Alpharius himself. He spoke of Guilliman hating his "underhand" and dishonourable methods. This is big news!

 

Putting this information together we can easily interpret Guilliman was actually confronting Alpharius about the methods of his Legion and this lead to him suggesting adoption of his own methods.

 

Of course calling your methods morality into question is probably more insulting than saying those methods don't work. However it is much more understandable, as it places Guilliman as a man of honour. Also makes more sense seeing as he is never tried to tell other Primarchs how to do his job.

 

Of course this is using what information we have and it might change, but it's certainly an interesting interpretation if I do say so musely!

[Legatus]

Of course calling your methods morality into question is probably more insulting than saying those methods don't work.

I dunno, I think telling an overambitious person that he isn't doing that well is probably more insulting than telling a ruthless bastard that he is a ruthless bastard.

 

Of course, since Guilliman never suggested that Alpharius should adopt his methods, and since Alpharius didn't care much about it anyways (according to his own words in "Legion"), and since the Alpha Legion was said to be heavily engaged with the Space Wolves and the White Scars near Prospero, there is really no reason why Alpharius now should travel all the way to the eastern fringe to confront the Ultramarines on Eskrador. But it will still probably happen. Because that is the one and only thing from the Index Astartes Alpha Legion that Alan Merrett deems worthy to keep, what with everything esle being retconned.