Gree Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 You havnt mentioned anything about it's combat effectiveness. I saw no need to. The Legions were combat effective, but that doesn't mean they were the right choice or needed by the Imperium now where they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Finecast marines too. 70 dollars per squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The Imperium was growing when the Legions were around. The only thing that hurt the Imperium Back then was the Imperium. Also, for everyone who says that people didn't trust the space marines. Why wouldn't the people who had been rescued the the loyalists feel gratitude instead of fear? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The Imperium was growing when the Legions were around. The only thing that hurt the ImperiumBack then was the Imperium. The Imperium can't trust itself obivously. Also, for everyone who says that people didn't trust the space marines. Why wouldn't the people who had been rescued the the loyalists feel gratitude instead of fear? Astartes rescued them but they also started the whole thing. Oh and Index Astartes Imperial Fists says so. Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 The Imperium was growing when the Legions were around. The only thing that hurt the ImperiumBack then was the Imperium. 1. There were 18 Primarchs around back then. 2. The Emperor was alive and in control. 3. There were no 9 Traitor Legions operating from inside the Eye of Terror, where they are essentially untouchable. 4. It were the Space Marine Legions which hurt the Imperium, to be precise. I don't think any other threat has ever hurt the Imperium that badly ever since. And the Imperium has survived for 10,000 years with the current military structure. These are not really very convincint arguments in favour of the Legion structure. Also, for everyone who says that people didn't trust the space marines. Why wouldn't the people who had been rescued the the loyalists feel gratitude instead of fear? If you have one giant death machine slaughter your whole family, and then have another giant death machine chase away that other giant death machine, would you then overall think favourably of giant death machines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 It was the only thing they tried. And I lol'd at the death machine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 I think someone is a little upset with their administration ;) It all depends on your views I suppose. I see the Space Marines as serving humanity, because they serve the Emperor, and he served humanity. Also, the codex in my mind was not a bad idea, because now when someone turns, it doesn't bring 100,000 marines with him. Also, the HLoT, in my mind, do care about humanity. They just don't care much for individuals, more of for the Species. I mean, you can say that they serve their own agendas, but if humanity fails, what happens to them? they know this to be true. Also, it isn't much differant under them leadership wise (Policies are WILDLY differant, but the approach is not). I mean, look at the Emperor. How much representation did you get when he was ruling? About the exact same. And he was still killing psykers and destroying non compliant worlds. Why? Because humanity must stand united or it will fall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 But I love some of these ideas, especially the Space Marine Council one! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 But I love some of these ideas, especially the Space Marine Council one! I like the idea also, i think it could work well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 What would Marines need a council for? Their place, including all their duties and privileges, has been encoded in the Codex Astartes. They only would need representation if something that concerned them fundamentally changed. But in such a rare occurrance there will probably be a gathering of representatives of the most influential Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 In case there were rules and restrictions a chapter wanted changed. Guilliman is gone, why shouldn't the new chapter masters vote? :eek Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 What would Marines need a council for? Their place, including all their duties and privileges, has been encoded in the Codex Astartes. They only would need representation if something that concerned them fundamentally changed. But in such a rare occurrance there will probably be a gathering of representatives of the most influential Chapters. and what if you are one of those stubborn chapters that dont follow the Codex? i think a somewhat regular meeting of key chapter masters could vastly improve the effectiveness of the space marines as a whole, and prevent bs like the soul drinkers and huron from occuring again. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I like the idea of a Adeptus Astartes Council. It actually makes perfect sense there already should be one in place. Their role would be beneficial to the Imperium even. Discussion could be had to ensure their sovereignty was maintained, thus when the Astral Claws turned traitor they wouldn't have been joined so eagerly by other Chapters who assumed it was all a matter of fighting for independence. Other Chapters could go to the council if they felt similarly under threat or mis-treated. The council could decide on a course of action and then present an envoy to the High Lords to create a dialogue. This would save the Imperium from having to fight with some Chapters needlessly. With regards to Chapter against Chapter conflict the council could also mediate if need be (with the express agreement of the Chapters involved of course). I'd steer away from co-ordination of military assets though, since this is essentially centralising command of the Space Marines into the hands of a few key individuals. Whilst it would give the benefits of both concentration of force of the Legions and the response speed and autonomy of the Chapters, there is no controlling factor to prevent corruption. (wink wink, my idead of 1st Founding Legions and Chapters both existing) Of course this is just fantasy, but I believe there is a role for a council. Main problem would be who chairs it and who agrees to their decisions, especially if there is a dead lock. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I think Captain Idaho has fleshed that idea out well, i only wish GW would read these forums and add some of the good ideas into the fluff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 First, it would have been infeasible to expect a council of galaxy wide Chapters to gather about the incidents at Badab. It would if anything have been a localised issue, with the Chapters in the area involved. Thus it could never really be "the Astartes council" but allways an ad hoc meeting of those Chapters within reach. In the case of the Astral Claws, Huron Blackheart had convinced two or three other Chapters that his case was just. Had there been an Astartes Council for him to talk to, he might have convinced all of them that he was in the right, creating a schism between the Administratum and the Space Marines. As it played out, the other Chapters that got involved made up their own minds, or were informed mainly by sources other than Huron Blackheart himself. Second, what would the global Astartes council debate when there was no borderline rebellion of a Chapter to consider? That the Blood Angels should provide those gene samples the Mechanicus keeps asking about? That the Dark Angels should justify repeatedly abandoning Imperial forces? That the Iron Hands should call more often? That the Space Wolves and the Black Templars should better start conforming to the Codex dictates? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Yeah actually. Had Huron been able to convince a space marine council that he needed more men the war might have been averted. It would be awesome to read about all the space marine chapters debating philosophies and regulations. It is quite possible for as many as possible to gather. It could be aged veterans who are beyond survive or senior captains. It would be presided over by a representative from each of the 9 loyalist legions who act as MCs for the meeting, announcing the agenda and all that. There would be no schism between the administratum because if it was put to a vote and the majority was in favor then the administratum doesn't have tge man power to tell them they are wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Well, the Astartes are the only organisation under the Emperor that doesn't have even a potential seat amongst the High Lords. Even the Officio Assassinorum has one, yet the Astartes don't, so the "they're only warriors" thing doesn't cut it. The Inquisition has a seat, so the "they're too fractious" excuse doesn't work either. The Astartes should get a seat, rotating between Chapters (of course, with "preference" inexplicably being given to Codex-adherent Chapters, with the divergent ones being passed over in favour of letting their better behaved brothers getting a turn). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 The High Lords wont be able to know if a chapter is adherent or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Again, I'm going to have to side with Marshal2 Crusaders on this (see, it does happen). It's entirely plausible that every Chapter can have a single representative of advanced years at the council. They would have the discretion to act in favour of their own Chapter where contact isn't available between their Chapter and themselves. The Chapters who are insular don't turn up or at least only rarely, which just means they aren't represented when matters of import are discussed. That's their problem. The Council could act in reverse for the Imperium; as a means to complain about Chapters exceeding their mandate. That way the Chapters are better policed and everyone is happy. It works from a literature point of view, plus it fits the establish back ground of big political engines vying for power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I had an idea for such a council being formed. Earlier, I had mentioned the Space Marines didn't reform the Administratum when it failed miserably. What if this council came about because of the Apostasy? Think about it. What of the point of the council was to restore the balance between marines and mortals, since before such a council existed there would have been no inter mingling. This would be a decent catalyst to explain why their is divergence in the newer chapters and adherence in the older. If the newer chapters had looser restrictions they could alter slowly over time into their unusual characteristics. I'm liking this idea. It gives chapters a 'legal' ability to subtly change. Codex law could be debated, organizational and strategic wisdom shared. New ideas and traits would branch to all chapters present while keeping them independent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I'm liking it too! I'd change some of the wording so it weren't as strong, since the Codex was never law, but apart from that I'm lapping up every bit of it. It also ties in nicely with the scions of Dorn who were pivitol in ending the Age of Apostasy, and Dorn was famous for his good relations with all parties within the Imperium. The Imperial Fists should be the driving force behind setting up such a council. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, the facts that - only the Adeptus Custodes have supreme authority, that the the Captain-General of the Custodes always has a seat available to him as a High Lord, the Custodes are superior to the Astartes (genetically/biologically and in authority), the Custodes keep the Imperium from getting stupid (e.g. putting an end to Vandire), the Custodes actually DO seem to know The Emperor's will (at least to a much more significant degree than anyone else), and the Custodes and the Astartes are brother organizations with a history of respect and fighting together - mean that the Custode Captain-General should be plenty good enough as an agent to look out for the interests of the Adeptus Astartes among the High Lords, and I'm sure he does. You guys know there IS a council of Astartes commanders (and Inquisitors), right? For one, they're the ones who decreed the creation of the Deathwatch. Offhand I couldn't tell you what all they do, but obviously they seem to have some significant power, even if it's only power that they themselves can muster as Astartes lords, rather than legal power like the High Lords'. I'll try and look it up when I get home at 4pm (Gorrammit! It's only 10am!?? *sigh* ...stupid work...). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2829997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Astartes Council is a really neat idea. However, I think it's worth pointing out that among the many problems such an institution would face, cooperation from Astartes would be chief among them. The problem is that to be of any significant use, the Council would have to have formal authority, which would require Chapters to willingly cede portions of their sovereignty. Chapters, of course, would be loathe to do this. This problem is an analog to that faced in international politics on the question of global government or international law: the international system, just like the "inter-astartes system", is entirely anarchic, i.e. each unit is sovereign and there is no over-arching institution that has authority over each unit, and the establishment of any such over-arching institution or legal regime requires each sovereign unit to cede portions of it sovereignty to higher body in recognizing that bodies authority over it in certain matters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2830005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 I think the council would be entirely democratic with no ceding of sovereignty at all. Majority rules. The Custodes are not Astartes. They arnt the older brothers of space marines, that is a notion adopted by players who want some kind of tie to the elite of the elite. They exist solely to protect the Emperor. If they truly cared they would send out strike forces to aid space marines. But they don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2830011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 They exist solely to protect the Emperor. If they truly cared they would send out strike forces to aid space marines. But they don't. It isn't about what they truly care about, its the fact they are the Emperors bodyguard, they go where he goes it is just unfortunate that the Emperor is jammed in the Golden Throne but their duty is to him alone - unless stated otherwise by the Emperor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/10/#findComment-2830040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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