Captain Idaho Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I don't really think everything is exclusive from each other. For example, we only have a passing comment from Alpharius regarding his spat with Guilliman. It's his word (which means little) and doesn't mean there was more to the confrontation (or there wasn't a confrontation) with Guilliman. Likwise, the Alpha Legion could still ambush Space Wolves, White Scars and anyone else and still have time to ambush Guilliman at a later date. We have no concrete time frame, details of the disposition of forces or anything else to suggest the Alpha Legion engaging other Legions means they can't engage Ultramarines later on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Alpharius saying he ignores Guilliman is perfect proof that he didn't care. He fought wars like an intelligence agency. Guilliman wouldn't have appreciated that because he'd never done anything like that in his life. You can do more with a small team of operatives doing CI missions than an entire conventional army. Look at the cold war.... Im the far future of grim dark only the Alpha Legion can fight a war correctly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Indeed, as we have seen, the Alpha Legion is unbeatable, knows everything while itself being unknowable, is everywhere and can do everything according to their ulterior agenda, which no one knows. But they are not said to be the greatest, so they aren't mary sues or anything. :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 lolwutYou do realize that the Ultramarines have more recorded battles than anyone, right? I don't mean in terms of what they do in the fluff, but rather the fluff available for us to reference. If you say so. I think a few of the more active chapters and ones with larger numbers might just have a few more major wars than the Ultramarines though. Or those who don’t stick to the codex’s centeralised command structure and can afford to be in multiple places in the galaxy at once. campaign against the Vektates of Arkenath Battle of the Furious Abyss Battle Of Calth Those took place during the heresy, I specified since the Heresy. 3rd Rothern I pacification of the Great Heresy Which I have no problem with as I already cited it as being one of the few major engagements they’ve done outside of Ultramar. Battle against the Star-Striders of Crioth Retaliation for the Heavenfall Massacres The Fall of Chundrabad The Pyra Crusades the Zeist Campaign The Crusat Minor planetstrike Battle Of Thrax The Siege of Zalathras campaign against Waaagh! Gutshredda in the Forgoil system Assault on Black Reach battle in the Halamar Rift Battle of the Sepulchre The World Engine The Trenor Uprising The Tamari rebellions Fall Of Damnos liberation of the Lagan system battle against Waaagh! Irontoof Written by Matt Ward as a result of envy that the Ultramarines miss every major conflict thus they are non canon. Several such as the World Engine war only have the Ultramarines turn up and take all the glory while another chapter dies fighting an enemy the Ultras did nothing to bear. Any self respecting Ultramarines fan would instantly distance the chapter from these events save possibly for Damnos due to a better author attempting to salvage that conflict. the cleansing of Sabulorb Took place during Chaos Child, thus it is unfortunately most likely no longer canon due to the presence of Squats. the Damocles Crusade That one i'll accept though other space marine forces were present and they did lose the crusade. You also listed this twice. Also worth noting that the “dwindling non-codex aberrations” known as the Black Templars attempted this again later on with much greater success. Cleansing of Copul IV The Siege of Belios the first Balur Crusade Battle Of Corinth These ones i've not heard of, what happened during them and who were they written by? the Corinthian Crusade Siege of Tulwa That one i'll accept despite the sheer lack of detail surrounding it. For all we know it could have been the Ultramarines easily crushing a group of peaceful unarmed farmers in a crusade. And quite why the Ultramarines are suddenly the best force to fight the Iron Warriors is questionable to say the least in the battle of Tulwa. the Joran Retaliation Which as I recall did not go well for the Ultramarines and you lost captain Ardias during the fighting. First Tyrannic War & Battle of Macragge Barchi Scouring The Scouring of Ultramar No problems with these ones so long as they are the versions prior to the retcons in the fifth edition codex. They do seem to all be one large conflict though and not three. Scouring of Quintarn battle for Bloodspire Hive and Jorun's World Purgation of Jhanna Battle of Arconar Accepted that happened, though fighting and winning against Eldar pirates is hardly a great achievement. Battle of Knarts Landing No problems there, though again winning against a rebelling army isn’t exactly a great achievement for an astartes chapter. They also took surprisingly high casualties for that engagement considering they lost a fifth of their overall force. Second War for Armageddon No problems with this one. Notable for the Ultramarines displaying the rare act of humility by letting someone else take overall command despite the fact “they can never be Ultramarines.” destruction of the Flame of Iniquity battle for Malbede No problem with this one. Though again the former this is something hundreds of other chapters have done and doesn’t seem to be anything overly special. Battle of Black Bone Road No information listed anywhere about this battle. Most likely either non-canon or minor engagement. Horranveth Purgation One sided mass genocide which resulted in an easy victory. Even the Ultramarines present felt that “this type of combat was beneath them”. No problems with it though. defense of Ikkyo Battle for Ichar IV A long established event. No problems with this one though again the Ultramarines arguably perform an act of heresy by accepting help from xenos. defense of Dabenlar IV No problems with this one. The Ultramarines did have to get help from the Space Wolves and their actions did allow for a Chaos incursion to take place though. The Reclamation of Gorgo Forian Crusade destruction of Hunter of the Void The Battle Of Tarsis Ultra Battle Of Thracia Destruction of the Death of Virtue Nimbosa Campaign The Medusa V Campaign/Medusa Schism The Apocalyptic Battle for the Planetary Capital 'Vilius Coronis' No problems with these ones. Though the second and third are one battle apparently. Many also feature the Ultramarines running for help from others. The last one is quite questionable due to its date and the suggestion of multiple chapter masters being present. Only a handful of those took place in Ultramar. Hardly a list of victories worthy of the lone shining beacon in the adeptus astartes amongst all the false chapters who “can never be Ultramarines”. Let’s take a look at what the Ultramarines have been avoiding shall we: - The Horus Heresy: The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when most of the fighting occurs and take the least casualties. Despite doing next to no fighting they are instantly put in charge, declared the greatest legion and put in charge of the Imperium for a time. Suspicious to say the least. - Drakan Vangorich and a number of Imperial Assassins go rogue after killing the High Lords of Terra. In a massive conflict they are brought down by the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. - The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood: Goge Vandire is placed in power and Warp Storms ravage the Imperium, Vandire brings the Imperium to its knees before a joint strike force of Black Templars, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Imperial Fists besiege Terra. Eventually Vandire is killed by his own bodyguards and Sebastian Thor tries to restore the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs and do nothing. - The Black Crusades 1-12: The forces of Chaos repeatedly stream out form the Eye of Terror causing untold damage. While being held each time the Imperium pays a heavy price for its victories, notably during the fifth when the Warhawks and Venerators are entirely wiped out. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs and do nothing. - The Macharian Crusades: Lord Solar Macharius forms a massive crusade force and Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium leading to a great many victories. Losses are notable however, amongst which are Macharius’ flagship. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. - The First War for Armageddon: The daemon primarch Angron leads an attack upon the planet of Armageddon. Waves of blood flow in his wake as the defenders attempt to fight off his forces, the Space Wolves and Grey Knights answering their call for help and win at a heavy cost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. - The Badab War: Several chapters guarding the Maelstrom turn rogue as a result of the Astral Claws’ actions. Bitter fighting takes place with many chapters taking heavy casualties and are defeated during the course of a decade long war. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. - The Third War for Armageddon: Learning from his previous mistakes during the Second War, Ghazghull leads a massive Waaagh! against Armageddon once more. Large numbers of chapters, including several of the first founding, send their forces to fight along side the Steel Legion. Ghazghull is eventually driven off world but at a heavy cost and fighting grinds down to a bitter stalemate. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs. - The 13th Black Crusade: Finally getting his act together Abaddon takes his job seriously and launches almost all of his forces against Cadia. Dozens of chapters are deployed along side the Cadians to hold back the forces of Chaos, some of the largest combined fleets and masses of manpower are sent to hold back the traitor legions. Even the Space Wolves 13th Grand Company are seen opposing Chaos. The Ultramarines finally deem this a threat worthy of their time and send a small honour guard. You know things are bad when the Salamanders, a smaller chapter with a notably slow recruitment rate, are more willing to engage in major conflicts than the “greatest” of all space marines. They only seem to be the greatest chapter because most of the fluff is being written by an unapologetic fanboy and horribly bad writer and they’ve chosen to avoid any taxing engagements they could. A sizable number of the battles you listed came from that writer or are dubiously canon. Most of the Ultramarines actual victories seem to come from allying themselves with other forces, human or otherwise. I was incorrect, they don’t stick to Ultramar. They just hog all the glory from anyone who fights along side them and seek easy enemies to fight. You seem to be missing quite a few battles on this list through, such as one event which had the Ultramarines releasing the Nightbringer upon the galaxy. Indeed, as we have seen, the Alpha Legion is unbeatable, knows everything while itself being unknowable, is everywhere and can do everything according to their ulterior agenda, which no one knows. But they are not said to be the greatest, so they aren't mary sues or anything. Fearful that the "greatest of all Ultramarines" might have competition for being the galaxy's greatest Mary Sues? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 There is no point Ward bashing in this topic. Also, there will be no legionary bashing. And everything that happened in the latest codex IS CANNON. The ultras did do all of those on the list, but that is no big deal, because all legions have a list like that. And in defense of the ultras, yes, they may not go out of their area very often, but most chapters don't, and if you haven't noticed, they have their own threats (ie, rebels, Tau, and 'nids) to work with. Just because they don't leave their neighborhood doesn't mean they don't get any less action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I don't think we need anyone's approval to accept a list of engagements GW have given us. They happened, because GW said they happened. I guess we can ignore anything that happened involving Squats. But it is silly to say Ultramarines don't do much out side Ultramar, really. Every Chapter leaves their home world and there is no evidence the Ultramarines behave any differently. Just Ward/Ultramarines bashing really, which is dead boring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 There is no point Ward bashing in this topic. Also, there will be no legionary bashing. And everything that happened in the latest codex IS CANNON. The ultras did do all of those on the list, but that is no big deal, because all legions have a list like that. Legion bashing tends to come as a result of legion gushing. People trying to portray a single force as being supreme, arguing against any flaws it might have and all but stating "they're the best". Considering the number of Ultramarines fans in this thread there's been plenty of that in the last few posts. I'm just criticising the obvious problems such as the Ultramarines apparent refusal to ever willingly enter a major battle which might have them take more than a few casualties. And no, Ward's stuff is not canon. He's ignored so many basic things about the 40K universe and openly ed on so many chapters he dislikes that his stuff cannot be canon. It's fanfiction with Games Workshops logo on it at best. And in defense of the ultras, yes, they may not go out of their area very often, but most chapters don't, and if you haven't noticed, they have their own threats (ie, rebels, Tau, and 'nids) to work with. Just because they don't leave their neighborhood doesn't mean they don't get any less action. No, but it does mean that other chapters have much bigger battles than them and tend to fight more powerful enemies. It's one very obvious point to bring up when the Ultramarines are brought up as being the greatest chapter to ever live. Killing rebels on hundreds of battlefields is no task worthy of a space marine chapter. Fighting Tau and avoiding Chaos is not a task worthy of the "greatest" of all space marines. I do notice that they’ve fought their own battles but there have been many better chapters than they who have been far more active and fought more battles than them. Either I point out that one author's works are completely non canon and should be ignored or I start focusing upon the Ultramarines. More pointing out the obvious problems which come with the "greatest chapter" in Warhammer and criticising them for repeatedly failing to live up to their overblown reputation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827313 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 If you say so. I think a few of the more active chapters and ones with larger numbers might just have a few more major wars than the Ultramarines though. Or those who don’t stick to the codex’s centeralised command structure and can afford to be in multiple places in the galaxy at once. Codex Chapters rarely fight as a full Chapter. Usually a single strike force is enough for most conflicts. No problems with this one. No problem with this one. A long established event. No problems with this one though No problems with these ones. So you retract your statement that "the Ultramarines had few major actions outside of Ultramar since the Heresy" I take it? [Long list of engagements the Ultramarines were not part of, which was meant to be funny.] Funny how that list conveniently glanced over the 2nd War for Armageddon. But now imagine if the Ultramarines, who are but one of 1,000 existing Chapters, would have participated in every major battle we are given in the 40K background. The outcry from their detractors would never stop. The Ultramarines can just never win. If they are there, then it's "ugh, the Ultramarines again...", and if they aren't, it's "heehee, where were the Ultramarines, eh?" Also, this one is especially noteworthy: - The 13th Black Crusade: Finally getting his act together Abaddon takes his job seriously and launches almost all of his forces against Cadia. Dozens of chapters are deployed along side the Cadians to hold back the forces of Chaos, some of the largest combined fleets and masses of manpower are sent to hold back the traitor legions. Even the Space Wolves 13th Grand Company are seen opposing Chaos. The Ultramarines finally deem this a threat worthy of their time and send a small honour guard. That wasn't a small honour guard that was sent by the Ultramarines. That was the Ultramarines Honour Company which is permanently stationed near the Eye of Terror since the Heresy. (Though it contains squads from several Ultramarine successors, not just from the Ultramarines Chapter.) That also means they likely participated in the Black Crusade 1-12. They only seem to be the greatest chapter because most of the fluff is being written by an unapologetic fanboy and horribly bad writer and they’ve chosen to avoid any taxing engagements they could. Unfortunately, most of the Ultramarines fluff these days is written by someone who doesn't know the first thing about what made them interesting in the first place and finds it much more interesting to have an Ultramarines Capatin stumble around and dismiss the Codex Astartes. But that person isn't Matt Ward. I was incorrect, they don’t stick to Ultramar. They just hog all the glory from anyone who fights along side them and seek easy enemies to fight. That is totally based on canon sources, I am sure. Fearful that the "greatest of all Ultramarines" might have competition for being the galaxy's greatest Mary Sues? But the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Alpha Legion are not said to be the greatest, so they aren't mary sues. Plus, the Space Wolves and Blood Angels have flaws. Flaws that turn their Marines into anti-chaos werewolf squads or black clad death squads of death. You know, flaws. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Ward stuff IS CANNON. Otherwise, I would argue that nothing past 2nd edition is cannon, becasue they ignored Rogue Trader. Also, they fight in the whole Ultima Segmentum, which has every enemy. They do fight Chaos, they do fight Necrons, they do fight Tyranids, they do fight Orks, they do fight Eldar, they do fight Dark Eldar. They fight everything, just like the other chapters. I am a Blood Angel fan, and I do not like the Ultras, but that does not stop me from saying that the Ultras have a record at least equal to the Blood Angels (who protect teh WHOLE galaxy). When you only have 10 companies, no matter how far out you go, you can only fight so many battles. so, wrather than spread their forces across the galxy, they are concentrating them in one area, which has seen just as much war as the whole galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 No, but it does mean that other chapters have much bigger battles than them and tend to fight more powerful enemies. It's one very obvious point to bring up when the Ultramarines are brought up as being the greatest chapter to ever live. Killing rebels on hundreds of battlefields is no task worthy of a space marine chapter. Fighting Tau and avoiding Chaos is not a task worthy of the "greatest" of all space marines. I do notice that they’ve fought their own battles but there have been many better chapters than they who have been far more active and fought more battles than them. Do you have any sources to back up your claims that the Ultramarines had fewer engagements than some other Chapters? Because I'll have you know that I can produce sources that suggest the opposite. "In their long and glorious history they have fought in all of the most important battles of the Imperium's history." (Advanced Space Crusade, Ultramarines Scout Squad card) "Since the ancient times of the Great Crusade, the Ultramarines have fought at the forefront of the Emperor's armies. (...) Tales of their victories are told from their home world, Macragge, to teh sacred halls of Terra. Whenever the enemies of Mankind threaten the Imperium, the Ultramarines stand ready to fight them." (Index Astartes Ultramarines, Introduction) Obviously you can cite important battles where the Ultramarines didn't participate, but I think the reasons for why GW isn't including one particular Chapter in every campaign do not have to be discussed. But the notion that the Ultramarines are somehow confined to their home world, or a smaller region of space, and aren't participating in as many notable battles as many other Chapters is just completely baseless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Codex Chapters rarely fight as a full Chapter. Usually a single strike force is enough for most conflicts. That might be one reason why the Ultramarines have so frequently run for the help of other chapters, the Imperial Guard or even the Eldar. So you retract your statement that "the Ultramarines had few major actions outside of Ultramar since the Heresy" I take it? I accept that they've been outside of Ultramar but they seem to be very keen on leaving any actual fighting to Funny how that list conveniently glanced over the 2nd War for Armageddon. Why would I list the Second War for Armageddon as a major battle they didn't turn up for when they were actually there? And yes, it was funny. Just not for people who think the Ultramarines are the absolute best fighting force in the entirety of Warhammer. But now imagine if the Ultramarines, who are but one of 1,000 existing Chapters, would have participated in every major battle we are given in the 40K background. Then they are no longer Ultramarines and don't count. Even Ward seems to dislike them as he wrote them up as sycophants who run to the Ultramarines ever beck and call. It's specifically the Ultramarines that people try to delcare as being the greatest chapter to ever live, so i'm not going to count successors. If we were to make that argument then I could make various valid points stating that the Ultramarines are the chapter who opposes Guilliman's ideals the most as the largest number of chapters who do not adhere to the codex carry his gene-seed. I could also use it to point out that due to their successor chapters the Ultramarines lose the most battles and die the most in fighting humanity's enemies. The outcry from their detractors would never stop. The Ultramarines can just never win. If they are there, then it's "ugh, the Ultramarines again...", Only when all the glory is suddenly given to the Ultramarines over chapters who actually do the fighting for them. Or they're being written by a certain someone who places them as being on par with the Adeptus Custodes in terms of skill and honour. I also note that your accusation doesn't hold water as i've cited i've no problem with many battles listed above which the Ultramarines have won or been part of. and if they aren't, it's "heehee, where were the Ultramarines, eh?" Which is valid considering they only sent a few people to one Black Crusade and only turned up for a handfull of the Imperium's major battles. That wasn't a small honour guard that was sent by the Ultramarines. That was the Ultramarines Honour Company which is permanently stationed near the Eye of Terror since the Heresy. (Though it contains squads from several Ultramarine successors, not just from the Ultramarines Chapter.) That also means they likely participated in the Black Crusade 1-12. Or more likely they did not considering there's been no mention of them and they seem to so rarely grace any dangerous battlefield with their presence. Interesting to note that even in the one Black Crusade they did turn up for they actually commanded their successors to fight for them even then. Unfortunately, most of the Ultramarines fluff these days is written by someone who doesn't know the first thing about what made them interesting in the first place and finds it much more interesting to have an Ultramarines Capatin stumble around and dismiss the Codex Astartes. But that person isn't Matt Ward. You do know that only lasted two books right? A big character moment in Courage and Honour actually had Uriel admitting he'd gone overboard on trying to think outside the codex. Besides, at least in that series they actually make mistakes and lose marines to their enemies. At least, unlike the fifth edition codex, that author sees losing battles as being something more than the Ultras running away from the planet and blowing it up behind them. That is totally based on canon sources, I am sure. The battles listed by the Champion yes. But the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Alpha Legion are not said to be the greatest, so they aren't mary sues. Plus, the Space Wolves and Blood Angels have flaws. Flaws that turn their Marines into anti-chaos werewolf squads or black clad death squads of death. You know, flaws. :D Interesting to see that two of the three chapters you deride there are written by someone who boosted the Ultramarines to the point where their chapter master can easily kill daemon princes. Then again, at least those chapters don't declare themselves to be the greatest who ever lived and settle for just fighting for the Emperor. The Ultramarines flaw is that even some of their players now seem to think that the chapter is the greatest and all other chapters are pale imitations at best. Then fail utterly to live up to their title of “the best”. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Ward stuff IS CANNON. Otherwise, I would argue that nothing past 2nd edition is cannon, becasue they ignored Rogue Trader. Yes, because naturally things were changed from Rogue Trader as a result of an inept writer who wanted to see the chapter he played as get more attention and glory for themselves. [/sarcasm] Changes were previously made to try and make the game better. Fluff changes by Ward are apparently made to try and wreck the game and drive players away. Or to shoehorn in bad fanfiction. Also, they fight in the whole Ultima Segmentum, which has every enemy. They do fight Chaos, they do fight Necrons, they do fight Tyranids, they do fight Orks, they do fight Eldar, they do fight Dark Eldar. They fight everything, just like the other chapters. I am a Blood Angel fan, and I do not like the Ultras, but that does not stop me from saying that the Ultras have a record at least equal to the Blood Angels (who protect teh WHOLE galaxy). You have no idea just how hard I am facepalming right now. Do you actually realise that there are more chapters than just the Ultramarines in the Ultima Segmentum or was that also retconed out of existance in the fifth edition codex? And going by the list of battles given it seems they try to avoid fighting any major enemies unless they have no choice. I lost count of the sheer number of times they deployed massive forces to fight human rebels. And no, the Ultramarines don't protect the whole galaxy. If they did there would be no need for other chapters and they wouldn't keep missing major wars. When you only have 10 companies, no matter how far out you go, you can only fight so many battles. so, wrather than spread their forces across the galxy, they are concentrating them in one area, which has seen just as much war as the whole galaxy. That's not stopped the Raven Guard or a few other chapters which come to mind. Hell, the Crimson Fists lost most of their chapter in a war and they've proven to be more active than the Ultramarines of late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 Only those flaws have existed before Ward, and he actually made the Blood Angels better in this edition then they used to be (in both fluff and rules). So, I fail to see your point. And from what I have seen, while I dislike the Ultras, they do live up to their reputation of "being the best." +Edit+ And where are your sources for the Crimson Fists and Blood Ravens? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Only when all the glory is suddenly given to the Ultramarines over chapters who actually do the fighting for them. Can you cite an instance where that happened? You mentioned one in an earlier post: Several such as the World Engine war only have the Ultramarines turn up and take all the glory while another chapter dies fighting an enemy the Ultras did nothing to bear. Here are some passages from that story from the Codex Space Marines, page 44-45: "On the outskirt of the Danorra system lies the scarred and lifeless planet of Safehold. It was here that the Astral Knights Chapter made the ultimade sacrifice to halt the onslaught of the Necron World Engine, and it is here, in the dead heart of the Battle Barge Tempestus, that a shrine was raised in their memory. [Description of the Battle Against the World Engine] As the Adeptus Mechanicus picked over the World Engine's remains, the Ultramarines retrieved the twisted wreckage of the Tempestus and set it down amid the ruins of Safehold - the planet that had been the World Engine's final victim. Since that day, Safehold's small garrison has known representatives from each Chapter that fought at the Astral Knights' side. By this remembrance do the living pay their debt to the slain." Somehow that doesn't seem like "taking all the credit" to me. It looks more like they erected a monument to the Astral Knights, and all the participating Chapters (which probably includes the Ultramarines) have permanently stationed some representatives there, in honour of the fallen. Which is valid considering they only sent a few people to one Black Crusade and only turned up for a handfull of the Imperium's major battles. I'd point out that with two or three exceptions (like the Vandire Incident) we are only told the major campaigns from the past few centuries. You aren't really assuming that there weren't any major conflicts in the past 10,000 years, and things only just started to get ugly? And the Ultramarines being badly mauled by the first Hive Fleet 250 years ago would have impeded their capabilities a bit, probably. That wasn't a small honour guard that was sent by the Ultramarines. That was the Ultramarines Honour Company which is permanently stationed near the Eye of Terror since the Heresy. (Though it contains squads from several Ultramarine successors, not just from the Ultramarines Chapter.) That also means they likely participated in the Black Crusade 1-12. Or more likely they did not considering there's been no mention of them and they seem to so rarely grace any dangerous battlefield with their presence. My knowledge on the Black Crusades is a bit rusty. In which source are they described in detail again? And why wouldn't a Space Marine company stationed outside the Eye of Terror for the sole purpose of monitoring traitor activity be likely involved in the major Chaos incursions? Interesting to see that two of the three chapters you deride there are written by someone who boosted the Ultramarines to the point where their chapter master can easily kill daemon princes. Then again, at least those chapters don't declare themselves to be the greatest who ever lived and settle for just fighting for the Emperor. The Ultramarines don't declare themselves to be the greatest either. When you only have 10 companies, no matter how far out you go, you can only fight so many battles. so, wrather than spread their forces across the galxy, they are concentrating them in one area, which has seen just as much war as the whole galaxy. That's not stopped the Raven Guard or a few other chapters which come to mind. Hell, the Crimson Fists lost most of their chapter in a war and they've proven to be more active than the Ultramarines of late. Umh, uh, ok, in how many of the listed major battles were the Raven Guard or the Crimson Fists involved? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827347 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutteman Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Codex Chapters rarely fight as a full Chapter. Usually a single strike force is enough for most conflicts. That might be one reason why the Ultramarines have so frequently run for the help of other chapters, the Imperial Guard or even the Eldar. So you retract your statement that "the Ultramarines had few major actions outside of Ultramar since the Heresy" I take it? I accept that they've been outside of Ultramar but they seem to be very keen on leaving any actual fighting to Funny how that list conveniently glanced over the 2nd War for Armageddon. Why would I list the Second War for Armageddon as a major battle they didn't turn up for when they were actually there? And yes, it was funny. Just not for people who think the Ultramarines are the absolute best fighting force in the entirety of Warhammer. But now imagine if the Ultramarines, who are but one of 1,000 existing Chapters, would have participated in every major battle we are given in the 40K background. Then they are no longer Ultramarines and don't count. Even Ward seems to dislike them as he wrote them up as sycophants who run to the Ultramarines ever beck and call. It's specifically the Ultramarines that people try to delcare as being the greatest chapter to ever live, so i'm not going to count successors. If we were to make that argument then I could make various valid points stating that the Ultramarines are the chapter who opposes Guilliman's ideals the most as the largest number of chapters who do not adhere to the codex carry his gene-seed. I could also use it to point out that due to their successor chapters the Ultramarines lose the most battles and die the most in fighting humanity's enemies. You might of listed the 2nd War for Armageddon to acknowledge the opposing point of view? But be fair to Ultramarines, they're on the other side of the Galaxy...Why would they fight regularly in the Eye of Terror? And I'd imagine the Battle of Maccrage is a bit of a major battle? I mean Behemoth did eat a decent number of planets? They also take part in fighting Leviathan and Kraken. Sure they had help for both of those but wouldn't it be silly to try and face down a Hive Fleet alone when you don't need to do it alone? (Well lets face it, I'd rather not face one at all. Bye bye, gotta see a guy about...well anything but Nids breaks into full run away from Nids) I think the point of the "Imagine they had been in all of the major conflicts" was the fact that if the Ultramarines HAD been in all of them you'd complain it was some sort of product placement. But here's a thing, GW focuses on Ultramarines. Great. Why do I care? Good for Ultramarines and their players. I on the other hand am quite happy with a DIY. I want to write my own fluff, I don't really care if GW want to focus on one chapter or declare they are very good. It is after all, a game of toy soldiers...Hardly worth an argument? But yes, back on topic, I agree with OP. It really had to be Ultras to take the lead after the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Cannon is a large black powder arty piece. Canon is the accepted/official version of lore. Cannons are everywhere in 40K, but there is no canon. I like how quickly I was proven right about this thread. Waste of time that didn't achieve anything more than starting another Ultras v Everybody else thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 If GW was to ever explain that the Ultramarines actually get along with most of the other Chapters (which I believe they actually did say at some point), then I bet a lot of players who saw them as arrogant and aloof would be genuinely surprised. :D Emperor forbid that they ever allied with the Imperial Fists or the Space Wolves. Those hate the Codex Astartes and what it stands for! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Do you have any sources to back up your claims that the Ultramarines had fewer engagements than some other Chapters? Because I'll have you know that I can produce sources that suggest the opposite. Yes, the Black Templars. Ten thousand years of constant crusading against anyone they can find. It's a basic part of their history and they're noted to fight daemons, aliens and anyone they come across. Ten thousand years of constant fighting tends to instantly top the Ultramarines running away from fights. "In their long and glorious history they have fought in all of the most important battles of the Imperium's history."(Advanced Space Crusade, Ultramarines Scout Squad card) Really? You're actually going back all the way to Space Crusade to try and excuse the Ultramarines letting others fight for them? In that case I could just use Rogue Trader fluff to state, accurately, that Guilliman wasn't even a primarch and all of the Ultramarines aren't even space marines. Just humans in power armour. It could certainly explain a few things like why the keep getting other chapters to fight major battles. "Since the ancient times of the Great Crusade, the Ultramarines have fought at the forefront of the Emperor's armies. (...) Tales of their victories are told from their home world, Macragge, to teh sacred halls of Terra. Whenever the enemies of Mankind threaten the Imperium, the Ultramarines stand ready to fight them."(Index Astartes Ultramarines, Introduction) Yes, probably stated because it would look bad for Games Workshop to admit their poster boys rarely turn up to big fights. Much of that sounds a lot like hyperbole or exactly the same sort of thing as every other chapter. All of the legions fought at the head of the Emperor’s armies, before and since the Great Crusade in one aspect or another. Many chapters victories are told from their homeworlds and on Terra, especially the Imperial Fists for obvious reasons. And what chapter wouldn’t be ready to fight the enemies of mankind when they threatened the Imperium? It just seems from their record that the Ultramarines seem to be sticking to very easy enemies. Obviously you can cite important battles where the Ultramarines didn't participate, but I think the reasons for why GW isn't including one particular Chapter in every campaign do not have to be discussed. But the notion that the Ultramarines are somehow confined to their home world, or a smaller region of space, and aren't participating in as many notable battles as many other Chapters is just completely baseless. Or it could be put down to the fact they have a small empire they have to run rather than an entire homeworld and need more forces to stay behind to sufficiently guard it from raiders. Also, I wouldn’t so much say they’re confined as voluntarily stick to that part of the galaxy considering all major threats seem to be in entirely different locations from them save possibly for the Tyranids and Orks. And I think I have the right to point out that they do not deserve the title of the “greatest” chapter when they keep missing every campaign or getting other chapters to bolster their strength and kill their enemies for them. Only those flaws have existed before Ward, and he actually made the Blood Angels better in this edition then they used to be (in both fluff and rules). So, I fail to see your point. He made them parodies of their former selves. He added badly written bits of fluff and boosted them to the point where they might as well be being led by a primarch. He gave them flying librarian Dreadnoughts, deep striking land raiders, had them allying with Necrons and then leaving “honorably”, Dante slicing Bloodthirsters in half with single blows, the :D ing Sanguinor was created. The only worse written and worse fluffed codex was the Grey Knights, and that was done by the same guy. It was a complete disgrace to 40K. And from what I have seen, while I dislike the Ultras, they do live up to their reputation of "being the best." No, I think the Grey Knights might just have the right to take that. Possibly the Deathwatch, the Custodes, the Imperial Fists, the chapters who guard the Eye of Terror and dozens of other sources. And where are your sources for the Crimson Fists and Blood Ravens? Nothing for the Blood Ravens. The Raven Guard are noted to have a de-centralised command structure which allows independent captains to disobey the commands of the chapter master and work independently from one another. Even Ward, in one of the few very small bits he didn’t dedicate to the Ultramarines, noted their autonomy and independence from others in the fifth edition codex. I think that was on page 25 or 26, I can’t be certain. It allows them a great deal of freedom and to fight in multiple distant worlds across the galaxy. As for the Crimson Fists, they’ve engaged in dozens of major conflicts since their chapter was cut down to a single company and have had to focus nearly all their resources on rebuilding. They have multiple battles against the Orks in the name of revenge, they Reclaimed Rynn’s World and fought to take back the planet even after being reduced to minimal strength, they’ve repeatedly fought Eldar Pirates notably losing Captain Cortez in the battle of the Steel Cross, even sending squads to assist taking back an Imperial World. Even sending a massive number of remaining marines to hunt down the Soul Drinkers on one battlefield. Again, even Ward’s on crap reflects a bit of this with them (ugh) answering the commands of the Ultramarines and letting a company join in with the Zeist Campaign. In a few years they’ve been more active than the Ultramarines apparently have been in the last century. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I like how quickly I was proven right about this thread. Waste of time that didn't achieve anything more than starting another Ultras v Everybody else thread. Seems more like a Codicier Lucion vs everyone else thread. :lol: I don't really understand how anyone can fail to accept all the 1st Founding Chapters and Legions are equal over all and there is no greatest. Games Workshop tell us Ultramarines are the greatest? Big deal, they also told me about Thunder Wolves and a Grey Knight who can transverse the Warp and bully Daemon Primarchs. There is actually no fluff that specifies they are the best, only GW descriptions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Yes, the Black Templars. Ten thousand years of constant crusading against anyone they can find. It's a basic part of their history and they're noted to fight daemons, aliens and anyone they come across. Ten thousand years of constant fighting tends to instantly top the Ultramarines running away from fights. As opposed to the Ultramarines, who are known to never fight dameons, aliens or Chaos Marines, and who constantly avoid fights and stay at home in Ultramar. Now that you mention it, I wonder how anyone could think the Ultramarine sactually fought against the enemies of mankind. Since they so obviously don't. You do have background proving that, don't you? It just seems from their record that the Ultramarines seem to be sticking to very easy enemies. Like Chaos Marines, Tyranids or Necrons. While all the other Chapters fight against the real tough enemies. Or it could be put down to the fact they have a small empire they have to run rather than an entire homeworld and need more forces to stay behind to sufficiently guard it from raiders. *cough* Ultramar even has excess PDF regiments who are prepared to fight all over the galaxy, so there is really no need for the Ultramarines to stay there. Edit: I would have pointed out that Ultramar is seen as one of the best defendend regions in the Imperium, but I guess that would only have drawn even more ire. And I think I have the right to point out that they do not deserve the title of the “greatest” chapter when they keep missing every campaign or getting other chapters to bolster their strength and kill their enemies for them. If they missed every campaign, that would probably not be too favoruable. But who would make such a claim? That they often fight in campaigns where other Chapters are involved... really? :lol: The Raven Guard are noted to have a de-centralised command structure which allows independent captains to disobey the commands of the chapter master and work independently from one another. Even Ward, in one of the few very small bits he didn’t dedicate to the Ultramarines, noted their autonomy and independence from others in the fifth edition codex. I think that was on page 25 or 26, I can’t be certain. It allows them a great deal of freedom and to fight in multiple distant worlds across the galaxy. That the Raven Guard companies are much more independent merely means that they will less often concult Chapter command when picking their battles. It is customary with all Chapters that individual strike forces operate in different engagements. E.g. the Novamarines, who in 2nd Edition were stated to be absolutely uncompromising when it comes to the tenets of the Codex: "The Novamarines are scattered throughout the galaxy, and have not fought together as a Chapter since the early years of M37." C:SM, p. 25 But the same goes for all Chapters: "It is rare for an entire Chapter to fight as one. Only by dividing their might can the Space Marines oppose the many dangers to humanity. Most threats to the Imperium can be settled by the intervention of a relative handful of Space Marines, but such threats are many and the Space Marines few. Should a Chapter stand together in battle, its roster of heroes united in common cause, then the assembled might is sufficient to bring liberation or destruction to entire star systems." C:SM, p. 5 As for the Crimson Fists, they’ve engaged in dozens of major conflicts since their chapter was cut down to a single company and have had to focus nearly all their resources on rebuilding. They have multiple battles against the Orks in the name of revenge, they Reclaimed Rynn’s World and fought to take back the planet even after being reduced to minimal strength, they’ve repeatedly fought Eldar Pirates notably losing Captain Cortez in the battle of the Steel Cross, even sending squads to assist taking back an Imperial World. Even sending a massive number of remaining marines to hunt down the Soul Drinkers on one battlefield. Again, even Ward’s on crap reflects a bit of this with them (ugh) answering the commands of the Ultramarines and letting a company join in with the Zeist Campaign. In a few years they’ve been more active than the Ultramarines apparently have been in the last century. But I guess that is mainly because you refuse to count the thirteen mentioned actions from the past century in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. B) The 3rd Editon Codex Space Marines had a list with nine actions within the past 300 years, but only two of those were from the last century (one joint action against an Ork empire and the battle against the Kraken splinter fleet on Ichar IV). Edit: And of course neither of those lists is meant to be exhaustive, and only is meant to give a few examples. Look, I get it, you are not a fan of the Ultramarines. And you don't have to be. I am not holding that against you. To each his own. But the accusations you are levelling against them here (they claim glory of other Chapters, they mainly stay in Ultramar, they try to stay away from tough enemies, they don't have a lot of notable battles) does not really reflect well on your knowledge of the background. You seem overly bitter about their treatment, and gladly misconstrue descriptions or accounts to put them in a bad light. I know it can be abeolutely satisfying to vent about something that rubs you the wrong way, love doing that myself. But maybe, just maybe, the Ultramarines are really an ok bunch, and them being held as the epitome of Imperial Space Marines should't detract from you enjoying a different Chapter for its own theme and traits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Can you cite an instance where that happened? You mentioned one in an earlier post: Ward fluff or actual fluff? In Ward Fluff pretty much every square inch of that codex. Including the Battle against the World Engine and the Zeist Campaign. In actual fluff, far, far less instances but a few such as the engagements along side the Mortifactors. Most of them were listed by the Emperor's Champion where they went as far as to team up with other chapters and Eldar to win Ultramarines victories. Somehow that doesn't seem like "taking all the credit" to me. It looks more like they erected a monument to the Astral Knights, and all the participating Chapters (which probably includes the Ultramarines) have permanently stationed some representatives there, in honour of the fallen. And yet it's listed as their parcitipation and amongst the battles and victories the Ultramarines have had when they had done nothing but stand by and watch other space marines die doing their job. It certainly sounds like glory stealing when it's listed amongst the battles they won when they did nothing. I'd point out that with two or three exceptions (like the Vandire Incident) we are only told the major campaigns from the past few centuries. You aren't really assuming that there weren't any major conflicts in the past 10,000 years, and things only just started to get ugly? And the Ultramarines being badly mauled by the first Hive Fleet 250 years ago would have impeded their capabilities a bit, probably. Alright, name a few more instances from the last 10,000 years which have been a major event in Warhammer. The Black Crusades come to mind, the major Ork Waaaghs! but besides the 41st millennium little information is given to overall conflicts. I can only work with the dates Games Workshop states in its proper fluff. The former of those two examples I’ve already cited as the Ultramarines leaving those battles to other forces and seemingly doing nothing. My knowledge on the Black Crusades is a bit rusty. In which source are they described in detail again? And why wouldn't a Space Marine company stationed outside the Eye of Terror for the sole purpose of monitoring traitor activity be likely involved in the major Chaos incursions? There are a number of Space Marine chapters now located outside of the Eye of Terror known as the Astartes Praeses which are tasked with guarding and monitoring all activity. I’m working with Codex: Eye of Terror and Chaos focused materials here as they mostly list the casualties and combatants. Apparently the Liber Chaotica: Khorne gives more info but I don’t have that. The point is that no Ultramarines are listed amongst any Black Crusade besides for the 13th, which they only sent a token force to. The Blood Angels were well known for a disastrous action during the 7th and the 12th (The Gothic War) relied heavily upon the Imperial Navy, but most forces noted seem to be the Cadians and nearby worlds. Considering they only happen ever several hundred years and all of them were proven to be major threats you could have thought the Ultras would actually send forces, but apparently not. The Ultramarines don't declare themselves to be the greatest either. They certainly seem to conceder themselves to be the greatest with the love letter written for them in 2008 noting endlessly how they were the best, how Calgar could beat Avatars to death, how the second company was the greatest fighting force in the entire adeptus astartes and how some of their warriors are as skills as other chapter’s captains by the time they earn the right to wear power armour. Umh, uh, ok, in how many of the listed major battles were the Raven Guard or the Crimson Fists involved? :lol: That wasn’t the point I was making. It was arguing against Telanicus’ statement that chapters have to concentrate in one area can only fight so many battles. As such I cited one chapter which is known for being able to cover a wide number of battlefields due to its command structure and one chapter who has been far more active than the Ultramarines despite having less than half their number. You might of listed the 2nd War for Armageddon to acknowledge the opposing point of view? Again, why? I believe I listed the Second War for Armageddon as being one of the wars I had no problem with them being a part of. If I didn’t then you have my apologies. But being a small force in a couple of major conflicts does not excuse “the greatest chapter” continuously leaving the Imperium’s major battles to others. But be fair to Ultramarines, they're on the other side of the Galaxy...Why would they fight regularly in the Eye of Terror? Warp travel, it helps solve that problem. Also, being “the greatest chapter”, they should naturally have the very best of all Warp drives and be able to meet any battle in a matter of hours. And Black Crusades are not exactly a regular conflict, if you look at the dates they take place every thousand years or so and are the greatest conflicts of their time. You’d expect “the best” chapter to be ready to get involved with the rare battle which befits their title and give them a chance to prove their superiority above all the chapters who “can never be Ultramarines”. And I'd imagine the Battle of Maccrage is a bit of a major battle? A major battle? Yes, that I’ll accept. But it was a fight they couldn’t leave to others and was pushed upon them. I wouldn’t call defending their homeworld from an attacker who came to them to be a sign of activity and presence across the galaxy. It’s hardly a sign of being “the best” when they only get into a conflict with a major enemy when it comes to them. I mean Behemoth did eat a decent number of planets? Not that many actually. The splinter fleets supposedly did but the main force which went after Ultramar only ate one. They also take part in fighting Leviathan and Kraken. Sure they had help for both of those but wouldn't it be silly to try and face down a Hive Fleet alone when you don't need to do it alone? As “the best” they shouldn’t need help and shouldn’t keep declaring the fights they win thanks to their allies to be their victories. (Well lets face it, I'd rather not face one at all. Bye bye, gotta see a guy about...well anything but Nids breaks into full run away from Nids) Orks, Chaos, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, many space marine chapters, and quite a few forces in 40K would not. Especially the Necrons, they’d probably celebrate the chance to kill them. Most humans and minor species would run, but most major 40K factions would not. I think the point of the "Imagine they had been in all of the major conflicts" was the fact that if the Ultramarines HAD been in all of them you'd complain it was some sort of product placement. No, I’d call the fact they’re on every space marine boxed set and codex, with every Ward written codex shoehorning in remarks about how great they are, to be product placement. Having “the best” turn up to a big battle would just be normal. But here's a thing, GW focuses on Ultramarines. Great. Why do I care? Good for Ultramarines and their players. I on the other hand am quite happy with a DIY. I want to write my own fluff, I don't really care if GW want to focus on one chapter or declare they are very good. It is after all, a game of toy soldiers...Hardly worth an argument? I care. They let one writer turn my chapter into bad parodies of their former selves, let him turn the Space Marine codex essentially into the “Ultramarines Codex” and declared all chapters besides Ultramarines to be either fanboys of them or aberrations who do not follow the codex and are drying out. Hell, you’ve got your own chapter but thanks to Ward’s fluff they are now inept warriors who strive to follow Guilliman in every way, worship his name and are flawed because “they can never be Ultramarines.” You really don’t have a problem with that? Now, Ultramarines having a big presence upon codexes, that’s nothing new. But giving them such a big role to the point where most first founding chapters have only a handful of paragraphs devoted to them and the explanation of the Horus Heresy marginalized to explaining how “Robute Guilliman is awersome!!!11!” is outright wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Ward fluff or actual fluff? In Ward Fluff pretty much every square inch of that codex. Including the Battle against the World Engine and the Zeist Campaign. In actual fluff, far, far less instances but a few such as the engagements along side the Mortifactors. Most of them were listed by the Emperor's Champion where they went as far as to team up with other chapters and Eldar to win Ultramarines victories. Can you point to a specific source where a combined engagement is presented as their and only their victory? Because I don't really understand why the list of Ultramarine actions shouldn't mention any actions where other forces where involved. And yet it's listed as their parcitipation and amongst the battles and victories the Ultramarines have had when they had done nothing but stand by and watch other space marines die doing their job.It certainly sounds like glory stealing when it's listed amongst the battles they won when they did nothing. The "Battles of the Ultramarines" list on page 40 does not really mention the World Engine. The "Famous Battle" list on page 49 states this: "926.M41 - The Necron Worldengine is revealed as the architect of the destruction in the Vidar sub-sector. It is destroyed on the edge of the Doranno system, thanks chiefly to the noble sacrifice of the Astral Knights Chapter." Again, I am not seeing the glory stealing. I'd point out that with two or three exceptions (like the Vandire Incident) we are only told the major campaigns from the past few centuries. You aren't really assuming that there weren't any major conflicts in the past 10,000 years, and things only just started to get ugly? And the Ultramarines being badly mauled by the first Hive Fleet 250 years ago would have impeded their capabilities a bit, probably. Alright, name a few more instances from the last 10,000 years which have been a major event in Warhammer. The Black Crusades come to mind, the major Ork Waaaghs! but besides the 41st millennium little information is given to overall conflicts. I can only work with the dates Games Workshop states in its proper fluff. The former of those two examples I’ve already cited as the Ultramarines leaving those battles to other forces and seemingly doing nothing. My point is that when we aren't told about all the major conflicts of the past 10,000 years, and are only really told about the big conflicts of the past few centuries, then any claims such as "Chapter X was never involved in major conflicts" are competely baseless. I in turn can point to sources that suggest that the Ultramarines were likely involved in many of those battles we don't know anything about. The point is that no Ultramarines are listed amongst any Black Crusade besides for the 13th, which they only sent a token force to. The Blood Angels were well known for a disastrous action during the 7th and the 12th (The Gothic War) relied heavily upon the Imperial Navy, but most forces noted seem to be the Cadians and nearby worlds. Are there any actual descriptions of the Black Crusades, or are there brief mentions in BFG or Blood Angels sources explaining that they participated? Considering they only happen ever several hundred years and all of them were proven to be major threats you could have thought the Ultras would actually send forces, but apparently not. Assuming for a moment that they didn't (of which I am not covinced without having seen a few sources), then that couldn't possibly have to do with them being located at the exact opposite of the galaxy, and has to be attributed to their reluctance to fight against tough opponents? The Ultramarines don't declare themselves to be the greatest either. They certainly seem to conceder themselves to be the greatest with the love letter written for them in 2008 noting endlessly how they were the best, how Calgar could beat Avatars to death, how the second company was the greatest fighting force in the entire adeptus astartes and how some of their warriors are as skills as other chapter’s captains by the time they earn the right to wear power armour. There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is. Umh, uh, ok, in how many of the listed major battles were the Raven Guard or the Crimson Fists involved? huh.gif That wasn’t the point I was making. It was arguing against Telanicus’ statement that chapters have to concentrate in one area can only fight so many battles. As such I cited one chapter which is known for being able to cover a wide number of battlefields due to its command structure and one chapter who has been far more active than the Ultramarines despite having less than half their number. The point I was making was that you cannot claim that the Raven Guard or the Crimson Fists were more active than the Ultramarines. Thus why I was asking for a list of specific engagements. You cannot just throw out claims like that, especially after having been presented with like 20+ engagements of the Ultramarines, no matter how many of them you deem as inconsequential. We are never given an exhaustive list of engagements for any Chapter, we are allways only given examples. But there are sources explaining that the Ultramarines generally stand at the forefront of the defense of the Imperium, and stuff like that, so any claims to the contrary (them being significantly less active than other Chapters) have to be supported. But be fair to Ultramarines, they're on the other side of the Galaxy...Why would they fight regularly in the Eye of Terror? Warp travel, it helps solve that problem. Yes, you can get to any point within the galaxy in a certain amount of time. But that doesn't mean that the west end of the galaxy has any clue about what is happening on the east end of the galaxy. There are times when sectors and worlds like Fenris or Ultramar cannot be reached at all. Any Chapter appearing for a conflict on the other side of the galaxy is usually a result of chance much more than any deliberation. And this all assumes that the Ultramarines were not part of any of the Black Crusade defense efforts. No, I’d call the fact they’re on every space marine boxed set and codex, with every Ward written codex shoehorning in remarks about how great they are, to be product placement. Having “the best” turn up to a big battle would just be normal. There are 1,000 Chapters. Most engagements will only include a hand full of Chapters. Having one single Chapter be part of all of those engagements is statistically not only improbable, but impossible, seeing as many big engagements will be happening at the same time. It is not like most Chapetrs just sit around all day and wait several centuries for something exciting to happen. Now, Ultramarines having a big presence upon codexes, that’s nothing new. But giving them such a big role to the point where most first founding chapters have only a handful of paragraphs devoted to them and the explanation of the Horus Heresy marginalized to explaining how “Robute Guilliman is awersome!!!11!” is outright wrong. How many paragraphs about the Iron Hands or Crimson Fists were in the 4th or 3rd Editon Codex Space Marines? Oh, that's right: none. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I think you're reading different Codex books to the rest of us Codicier Lucion. There are so many flaws in your logic I can't even take your side of this argument seriously anymore. Is this a wind up? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 If GW was to ever explain that the Ultramarines actually get along with most of the other Chapters (which I believe they actually did say at some point), then I bet a lot of players who saw them as arrogant and aloof would be genuinely surprised. That’s mostly due to the endless declarations of the Ultramarines being “the best” and that all other chapters now want to be them, are wrong for having gene seed not from Guilliman and are utter fools if they don’t completely stick to the codex. And even then if they do all that they will carry the insulting statement that they “can never be Ultramarines”. ;) Emperor forbid that they ever allied with the Imperial Fists or the Space Wolves. Those hate the Codex Astartes and what it stands for! Excuse me? The Space Wolves didn’t use the Codex because (until Ward threw in a bit about Russ being backwards and arrogant) they wanted to stick to what they were good at and didn’t care for it. I think I remember someone mentioning that there’s even an original copy of the codex in the Fang though. To my knowledge no one really had a problem with them until Ward declared them to be “aberrant chapters” who were backwards fools and are dying out. Then tried to portray them as morons for not hailing Guilliman as the greatest primarch and following his ways. And the Imperial Fists partially adhere to the codex so I have no idea what you’re talking about there. Seems more like a Codicier Lucion vs everyone else thread. ;) Only those who believe all the stuff about the Ultramarines being the absolute greatest chapter and all others are either Ultramarines wannabes or fools who are destroying their own chapters. And those who don’t think that for “the best” they’ve not exactly got a good record of battles and victories behind them, I don't really understand how anyone can fail to accept all the 1st Founding Chapters and Legions are equal over all and there is no greatest. That would be the smartest thing said thus far in this thread, I just wish Games Workshop were aware of it. Games Workshop tell us Ultramarines are the greatest? Big deal, they also told me about Thunder Wolves and a Grey Knight who can transverse the Warp and bully Daemon Primarchs. The latter example never happened. It was written by Ward. The former example I agree is pretty damn ridiculous and seems more like a joke than something to add to an army. Unfortunately Games Workshop are letting an author declare things like “Tigurius is even more powerful than the Emperor” “the Ultramarines second company is the greatest fighting force in the entire adeptus astartes” “by the time Ultramarines scouts don their armour they have the same level of experience and skill as most other chapter’s captains” and the infamous declaration that all chapters without Guilliman’s geneseed are divergent and worthless. As opposed to the Ultramarines, who are known to never fight dameons, aliens or Chaos Marines, and who constantly avoid fights and stay at home in Ultramar. Well, considering that most of the daemons, aliens and Chaos Marines they’ve fought tried to invade Ultramar there is the possibility of that. [/half-jokingly] Now that you mention it, I wonder how anyone could think the Ultramarine sactually fought against the enemies of mankind. Since they so obviously don't. You do have background proving that, don't you? And I’ve already stated that the previously posted list of battles made me change my mind, however the canon battles in that list mostly contained examples of the Ultramarines fighting enemies who were beneath them like rebelling worlds. Oh they fight the enemies of mankind, but despite being “the best” they seem to always stick to the easy enemies. Like Chaos Marines, Tyranids or Necrons. While all the other Chapters fight against the real tough enemies. All three of those examples attacked Ultramarines held worlds, they didn’t have a choice but to fight them. Where as other examples of “lesser” chapters who “can never be Ultramarines” had them seeking out and engaging enemies on other battlefields. *cough* Ultramar even has excess PDF regiments who are prepared to fight all over the galaxy, so there is really no need for the Ultramarines to stay there. Edit: I would have pointed out that Ultramar is seen as one of the best defendend regions in the Imperium, but I guess that would only have drawn even more ire. I can agree that Ultramar is one of the best defended regions in the Imperium, and that is most likely at least in part due to the Ultramarines keeping almost their entire chapter there. Also, isn’t that last statement a contradiction? the PDF are defence forces scrambled together to defend the world they’re on to begin with. Imperial Guard regiments I might understand but PDF forces seems odd to say the least. I’d also call it a bad sign when even forces intended to stick to one world and defend it tend to be more active than Ultramar’s own chapter. If they missed every campaign, that would probably not be too favoruable. But who would make such a claim? That they often fight in campaigns where other Chapters are involved... really? :) It certainly seems to be the case considering their record and Ward’s recent fluff which has every successor chapter at their beck and call. That the Raven Guard companies are much more independent merely means that they will less often concult Chapter command when picking their battles. It is customary with all Chapters that individual strike forces operate in different engagements. Yes, and it allow them much more freedom and a greater level of activity than the Ultramarines. E.g. the Novamarines, who in 2nd Edition were stated to be absolutely uncompromising when it comes to the tenets of the Codex: "The Novamarines are scattered throughout the galaxy, and have not fought together as a Chapter since the early years of M37." C:SM, p. 25 Probably because they don’t have an entire empire they have to keep well defended the entire time. And unlike the Ultramarines they actually tend to turn up in major conflicts such as the Badab War, unlike the Ultramarines they actually seem to go out seeking enemies worthy of their time and effort. What’s more is that they’re not declared as being “the best” so they’re doing what’s expected of them. They are not continuously underachieving and showing they have no right to the reputation Ward and Games Workshop keeps trying to give to one chapter. But the same goes for all Chapters: "It is rare for an entire Chapter to fight as one. Only by dividing their might can the Space Marines oppose the many dangers to humanity. Most threats to the Imperium can be settled by the intervention of a relative handful of Space Marines, but such threats are many and the Space Marines few. Should a Chapter stand together in battle, its roster of heroes united in common cause, then the assembled might is sufficient to bring liberation or destruction to entire star systems." C:SM, p. 5 And thus the Ultramarines should be more active and sending their forces to the larger conflicts they apparently keep avoiding. Not running around dealing with forces not worth their time and effort. But I guess that is mainly because you refuse to count the thirteen mentioned actions from the past century in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. Yes, because it was written by Matt Ward and turned the Ultramarines into badly written parodies of themselves. It’s non canon and should be ignored at all costs. Most of those events were just invented because he wanted to give his favourite chapter even more attention and try to prove that they’re better than all others. ;) The 3rd Editon Codex Space Marines had a list with nine actions within the past 300 years, but only two of those were from the last century (one joint action against an Ork empire and the battle against the Kraken splinter fleet on Ichar IV). Edit: And of course neither of those lists is meant to be exhaustive, and only is meant to give a few examples. Were those battles on the list the Emperor’s Champion gave? Look, I get it, you are not a fan of the Ultramarines. Actually I am. I like the Ultramarines but I don’t like Ward’s god powered mary sue Ultramarines. Especially when the fluff suggests that they don’t deserve their title of being “the greatest of all space marines”. I’m going to keep arguing against them, keep proving that they are not the best and keep pointing out how the have endlessly failed as “the greatest of all chapter’s” because of that abomination of a codex. And you don't have to be. I am not holding that against you. No, you just seem to have had no problem with your chapter being turned into the only competent chapter in existence at the expense of all others. Some of us abandoned it because of that bad joke of a codex. To each his own. But the accusations you are levelling against them here (they claim glory of other Chapters, they mainly stay in Ultramar, they try to stay away from tough enemies, they don't have a lot of notable battles) does not really reflect well on your knowledge of the background. I’m working with the information given to me. From what I can see, they don’t deserve their title or the endless praise of being the greatest force in 40K at the expense of all other chapters. They stick to Ultramar, most of the major battles they have had were fought there and many of the ones outside of Ultramar seem to mostly be minor engagements not worth their time. Either that or they are fought with other chapter’s doing the work for them. They are not the most active, they are not the best and there are sure as hell better chapters than them despite the condescending statement that they “can never be Ultramarines.” If you have a problem with my statements you can blame Matt Ward for all the crap he has produced about the chapter. You seem overly bitter about their treatment, and gladly misconstrue descriptions or accounts to put them in a bad light. Accounts which are based off of the records of the battles kept on this site in the Ultramarines timeline. They’re no less insulting that all the descriptions Ward has given them about how they are the greatest chapter to ever live and reducing others like the Imperial Fists to Ultramarines fanboys. I’m just pointing out that from the battles listed in the timeline, the ones not spawned by a hack, they do not deserve their reputation nor their description as the “greatest of all space marines.” But maybe, just maybe, the Ultramarines are really an ok bunch, and them being held as the epitome of Imperial Space Marines should't detract from you enjoying a different Chapter for its own theme and traits. That might be one thing, that was what they were listed as in the last codex and all the ones before it. Now is somewhat different, now it’s suggested that all other chapters are either wrong or want to be Ultramarines: Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch. [Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters. Any other chapter is second rate. Any chapter who has Guilliman’s gene-seed are only servants to the Ultramarines and will follow their every command. All chapters, even ones previously described not to be such as the White Scars, are codex adherent and worship Guilliman even over their own primarch. As much as their “divergent gene-seed” may allow and however much they might be ashamed of it. Ward reduced all other chapters to failures and second rate space marines. Who wants to start their own chapter or join a new one when Games Workshop itself is telling them that they are failures because they are not Ultramarines. It’s even worse than the Ultramarines themselves being turned into a bad fanfiction in that codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 If GW was to ever explain that the Ultramarines actually get along with most of the other Chapters (which I believe they actually did say at some point), then I bet a lot of players who saw them as arrogant and aloof would be genuinely surprised. That’s mostly due to the endless declarations of the Ultramarines being “the best” and that all other chapters now want to be them, are wrong for having gene seed not from Guilliman and are utter fools if they don’t completely stick to the codex. And even then if they do all that they will carry the insulting statement that they “can never be Ultramarines”. But why would players assume that the other Chapters don't get along with the Ultramarines because of that? That would suggest the opposite. B) Emperor forbid that they ever allied with the Imperial Fists or the Space Wolves. Those hate the Codex Astartes and what it stands for! Excuse me? The Space Wolves didn’t use the Codex because (until Ward threw in a bit about Russ being backwards and arrogant) they wanted to stick to what they were good at and didn’t care for it. I think I remember someone mentioning that there’s even an original copy of the codex in the Fang though. To my knowledge no one really had a problem with them until Ward declared them to be “aberrant chapters” who were backwards fools and are dying out. Then tried to portray them as morons for not hailing Guilliman as the greatest primarch and following his ways. And the Imperial Fists partially adhere to the codex so I have no idea what you’re talking about there. It wasmeant ironic, since a lot of people actually believe that the Space Wolves or the Imperial Fists have some sort of animosity toward the Ultramarines. And the Imperial Fists are one of the most Codex adherent Chapters out there, not just "partially adherent". Only those who believe all the stuff about the Ultramarines being the absolute greatest chapter and all others are either Ultramarines wannabes or fools who are destroying their own chapters. You are taking this way out of proportion. It has allways been the lore that Guilliman had established the Codex Astartes as the standard for Space Marine Chapters, and that not only as a First Founding Chapter but as the Chapter whose Primarch had mainly created the Codex the Ultramarines were seen as the exemplars of all Space Marines. Matt Ward just was bad ad describing that. The Other Chapters don't wish they were part of the Ultramarines, but they strive to be as prolific and effective as the Ultramarines. Not because Ultramarines are sooo dreamy, but because all a Space Marine wishes for is to serve the Emperor, and the Ultramarines are so good at that. And I’ve already stated that the previously posted list of battles made me change my mind, however the canon battles in that list mostly contained examples of the Ultramarines fighting enemies who were beneath them like rebelling worlds.Oh they fight the enemies of mankind, but despite being “the best” they seem to always stick to the easy enemies. Well, here are a few actions. All pre-ward, and ignoring those that were against rebels (unless traitor Marines were involved) and ignoring actions within Ultramar. However, I am counting actions where other Chapters or Imperial Forces were involved, because I cannot for the life of me understand your problem with those. 698.M41: Corinthian Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a seven year multi-Chapter Crusade against the Ork empire of Charadon. (3rdC:SM, p. 36) 701.M41: An Ultramarines infiltration force destroys the Iron Warriors' Fortress of Pain. (3rdC:SM, p. 36) 807.M41: Two Ultramarines Companies reclaim the rebellious oceanic cities on Jhanna. The rebels had Chaos Space Marine allies. (3rdC:SM, p. 36) 861.M41: The Ultramarines defeat a "powerful coalition of Eldar Raiders". (3rdC:SM, p. 36) 941.M41: Second Battle for Armegeddon - The Ultramarines fightalongside the Imperial Guard, the Blood Angels and the Salamanders againsg the Waaagh Ghazghkull. (various) 944.M41: Balur Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a larger Crusade effort against worlds on the eastern fringe. The opposition includes worlds held by the Orks. (3rdC:SM, p. 36) 995.M41: Calgar acts as supreme commandee in the defense of Ichar IV against the splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Kraken. (3rdC:SM, p. 36) Unknown date: Ultramarines fight against Chaos forces on the world Cocytus. (Epic 40,000 army book) Unknown date: On Vivaporius a large force of Imperial Guard and Ultramarines, supported by Titans, fight against Tyranids. The Imperial forces sutain heavy casualties. (Comic "Titan: God-Machine") If you accepted the various PC games as canon then the Ultramarines would have a few more battles against the Word Bearers ("Chaos Gate" and "Squad Command") and Orks ("Final Liberation"). I can agree that Ultramar is one of the best defended regions in the Imperium, and that is most likely at least in part due to the Ultramarines keeping almost their entire chapter there.Also, isn’t that last statement a contradiction? the PDF are defence forces scrambled together to defend the world they’re on to begin with. Imperial Guard regiments I might understand but PDF forces seems odd to say the least. I’d also call it a bad sign when even forces intended to stick to one world and defend it tend to be more active than Ultramar’s own chapter. As a Space Marine homeworld, Macragge (and the rest of Ultramar) is not required to provide troops for the Imperial Guard. But the military of Macragge is so prosperous that they maintain several hundreds of regiments that are constantly ready to join the Imperial Guard if necessary. I was pointing this out to show that the notion that the Ultramarines are sitting in Ultramar and do nothing is pretty ridiculous, since not even all their PDF units are needed. I’m working with the information given to me. From what I can see, they don’t deserve their title or the endless praise of being the greatest force in 40K at the expense of all other chapters. They stick to Ultramar, most of the major battles they have had were fought there and many of the ones outside of Ultramar seem to mostly be minor engagements not worth their time. Either that or they are fought with other chapter’s doing the work for them. They are not the most active, they are not the best and there are sure as hell better chapters than them despite the condescending statement that they “can never be Ultramarines.” If you have a problem with my statements you can blame Matt Ward for all the crap he has produced about the chapter. I am having problems with your statements because you level accusations against them which you cannot back up with fluff, or which are flat our contradicted by fluff. The notion that the Ultramarines don't get out of Ultramar much is ridiculous. The notion that they only let others fight for them and then claim all the glory is ridiculous. Both of these statements can easily be refuted with only a few sources, and I do not have to pick up the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines to do it. Your entire stance on the 5th Edition Codex is a massive overreaction. The gravest offense was made in a White Dwarf interview with Matt Ward, where he claimed that "all Chapters want to be like them". But even in that exaggerated statement, he was essentially correct. Just not in a "I wish I was an Ultramarine" sense, but more in an "I aspire to be as faithful a servant of the Emperor as the Ultramarines are" sense. And maybe there are a hand full of Chapters who are utterly convinced that their own way is the right way. Other than that, 99% of all Chapter are modeled more or less strictly after the Ultramarines example. That has been canon since 2nd Edition, it just was not emphasized as much since 3rd Edition. A newly created Chapter will naturally look to the Ultramarines as an example, and not to Chapter such as the Blood Angels or the Iron Hands. The Imperial Fists are also seen as an example in the 5th Edition Codex, btw., but then they also follow the Codex Astartes to the letter. Yes, that passage in the Codex Space Marines is badly put. But the Ultramarines were already seen as the most famous and even "greates" Chapter long before that. The 5th Edition does not really change the position of the Ultramarines, it merely makes some comments about how they are regarded by other Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/2/#findComment-2827490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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