The Legions After

[Brother Excedis]

I'm sorry but I do have to side a little with Codicier Lucion. I despise siding with people who just trash what they are debating about (no offense Lucion but thats what you originally were doing).

 

Now my personal opinion: I despise the Ultramarines. They have doomed everyone to mediocrity with their god awful codex astartes. honestly. Every legion seemed to do just fine fighting in their own style during the heresy but because Guilliman had the most troops at the end and was more of a politician he decided to impose his will. He was just as much power hungry and controlling as he was trying to help. I agreee with the splitting into chapters. That was a good idea but don't force your tactics and command structure onto eveyrone else because you have a stick up your butt and think your better.

 

And again I am sorry but everywhere it is stated that the ultramarines are better. I don't see the new Space Marine video game focusing on anyone but he UM's. I would kill for a Blood Angel game like that. I love my BA's and love them for their flaws and their idiosyncrasies. But I don't see anything like that happening to the UM's, they don't have a gene curse, or a separate mindset that distinguishes them like the Black Templars do. They are claimed as the best and are merely just the same as their plethora of successor chapters. They have become the definition of mediocrity, no different then any other chapter really. And Matt Ward's fluff is canon and I like what he did with the Blood Angels but there are small and hidden remarks that the UM's are better even in that codex. And honestly to be the best of something you need to be at the forefront of as much of it as physically possible, and searching out new challenges in it. The UM's are nt doing so. Their latest great battles came to them in surprise. THye have not sought out any opponent other then rebelling planets. And honestly with warp drives and such they very well could have sent a good amount of troops to each of the major conflicts they missed. That wouldn't have been very hard considering a lot of other chapters including the small and usually unnoticed Slamanders and Iron Hands did so.

 

Now I like their original premise. They could have been another specialty of warfare much unto themselves like the other first founding chapters, but instead they were bastardized by Matt Ward who was honestly just being a fanboy who wanted his precious babies to be the best. I'm not ranting against Ward, he has good times and bad, but they need to double check this crap before they publish it and allow Ward to simply kill off the rest of the divergent chapters and make it so we have to play as either UM's or a renamed chapter of UM's.

[Legatus]

They have doomed everyone to mediocrity with their god awful codex astartes.

An often seen misconception. The Codex Astartes advises maximum flexibility and to be capable in all situations. It includes doctrines from many of the Primarchs (most notably Perturabo's siege tactics, but older sources also mention contributions by Jonson and Russ). The Codex is not a limiting object, but an empowering one. The Chapters who stray from the tenets of the Codex Astartes usually do so because they focus on a particular style of warfare, or because they simply do not feel the need to organise their forces according to considerations of effectiveness. The Codex Astartes is meant to allow a Chapter to function with maximum efficiency and deal with all threats. It is in no means a constricting element, but not only many players but even some BL authors see it that way.

 

 

Every legion seemed to do just fine fighting in their own style during the heresy but because Guilliman had the most troops at the end and was more of a politician he decided to impose his will. He was just as much power hungry and controlling as he was trying to help. I agreee with the splitting into chapters. That was a good idea but don't force your tactics and command structure onto eveyrone else because you have a stick up your butt and think your better.

According to the Index Astartes Ultramarines the doctrines of the Ultramarines had already permeated most Legions at the end of the Scouring, due to all of them having fought together with the Ultramarines during those times. As I have mentioned above, Guilliman had compiled the best of all the known doctrines, and not just invented his own, so just like how he himself was not above seeing the merit in the doctrines of others, so were apparently most of his brothers able to accept them.

 

 

And honestly to be the best of something you need to be at the forefront of as much of it as physically possible, and searching out new challenges in it.

Which according to a few fluff sources, the Ultramarines do.

 

 

The UM's are nt doing so. Their latest great battles came to them in surprise. THye have not sought out any opponent other then rebelling planets.

This, on the other hand is pure and utter BS. I don't fault you for not having read my flood of text in the past few posts, where I had listed several battles of the Ultramarines. But had you read those past few posts, you would also have noticed that Codicier Lucion was unable to provide any source to back up such ridiculous claims.

 

 

Now I like their original premise. They could have been another specialty of warfare much unto themselves like the other first founding chapters, but instead they were bastardized by Matt Ward who was honestly just being a fanboy who wanted his precious babies to be the best. I'm not ranting against Ward, he has good times and bad, but they need to double check this crap before they publish it and allow Ward to simply kill off the rest of the divergent chapters and make it so we have to play as either UM's or a renamed chapter of UM's.

The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. In 1st Edition they were merely described as "the most famous". This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm sorry but I do have to side a little with Codicier Lucion. I despise siding with people who just trash what they are debating about (no offense Lucion but thats what you originally were doing).

 

Now my personal opinion: I despise the Ultramarines. They have doomed everyone to mediocrity with their god awful codex astartes. honestly. Every legion seemed to do just fine...

 

>snip<

 

Yeah as soon as I read that I just switched off.

 

One day I might just give up on internet forums...

[Codicier Lucion]

Can you point to a specific source where a combined engagement is presented as their and only their victory? Because I don't really understand why the list of Ultramarine actions shouldn't mention any actions where other forces where involved.

 

The Zeist Campaign for starters. And that was in a section of the codex which wasn’t even devoted to them. It seems to be Games Workshop’s policy for any space marine victory to be and “Ultramarines” victory if it’s in the codex now. If any chapter wins alone they either have to team up or are almost completely wiped out.

 

Again, I am not seeing the glory stealing.

 

It’s listed on this site as being one of the major battles they were involved in and a victory they were part of when they did nothing in the slightest. I would call that glory stealing.

 

My point is that when we aren't told about all the major conflicts of the past 10,000 years, and are only really told about the big conflicts of the past few centuries, then any claims such as "Chapter X was never involved in major conflicts" are competely baseless. I in turn can point to sources that suggest that the Ultramarines were likely involved in many of those battles we don't know anything about.

 

And the Ultramarines don’t seem to have been a part of any of those major conflicts. It’s always been other chapters, ones who actually engage in battles which take some effort to win, who fight in them. Chapters who are more deserving of being called “the greatest” rather than condescendingly described as being inferior to the Ultramarines.

 

Ward attempted to invent several minor wars which he describes the Ultramarines as single handedly fighting battles with the same importance as the Armageddon Wars and Black Crusades so no doubt you’ll get your wish to see them in major engagements. Assuming you can stomach fluff like Calgar time travelling back to kick Horus in the nuts and avert the entire Heresy. Or one generic Ultramarine taking on an entire Titan Legion and winning due to his “superior gene-seed”.

 

Are there any actual descriptions of the Black Crusades, or are there brief mentions in BFG or Blood Angels sources explaining that they participated?

 

Nothing about the Ultramarines there is nothing, of the Blood Angels it was noted they met with a major loss on the planet Mackan but not too much else. The basic descriptions of the overall Black Crusades are usually given with one of the early ones being directed towards the Astartes themselves as one daemon wanted them wiped out.

 

Assuming for a moment that they didn't (of which I am not covinced without having seen a few sources), then that couldn't possibly have to do with them being located at the exact opposite of the galaxy, and has to be attributed to their reluctance to fight against tough opponents?

 

Again, not one single instance lists the Ultramarines as having fought in any Black Crusade save for the 13th. And considering the fact they seem to never turn up to major conflicts, even rescue operations force sent to the nearby Rynn’s World when it was under attack, I stand by my point that they seem to be reluctant to actually fight any difficult battles. They just leave it to others.

 

There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.

 

The Ultramarines themselves and most of their players seem to have whole heartedly embraced that aspect of their chapter though. Every force suddenly falls to their knees to worship them and begs them to lead them into battle and now even other chapters will instantly default to their every wish. Hell, considering the way Sicarius acts and behaves in some fluff they seem to be buying into their own myth that they are so great all chapters are inferior to them.

They are not the ones doing the work, they are earning victories they declare for themselves off of other chapters and they sure as hell do not deserve to instantly be declared the best at every single damn thing.

 

The point I was making was that you cannot claim that the Raven Guard or the Crimson Fists were more active than the Ultramarines. Thus why I was asking for a list of specific engagements. You cannot just throw out claims like that, especially after having been presented with like 20+ engagements of the Ultramarines, no matter how many of them you deem as inconsequential. We are never given an exhaustive list of engagements for any Chapter, we are allways only given examples. But there are sources explaining that the Ultramarines generally stand at the forefront of the defense of the Imperium, and stuff like that, so any claims to the contrary (them being significantly less active than other Chapters) have to be supported.

 

Oh yes, you instantly ask for a list of cited victories by one of the most overlooked chapters whose codex is now being helmed by an author who seems to outright hate all but his favourite one. That’s fair isn’t it. The only reason you have that list is because Games Workshop is looking to shoehorn in every mention they can to make the Ultramarines look better, nothing else.

 

None the less there are a number of victories I do know of which are recorded. One of which will no dobut be overlooked by the Ultramarines despite their actions in saving Ultramar from a major traitor legion invasion.

 

- The Great Scourging

- The Baran Campaign

- The Downfall of Megarchy

- The Zypher Campaign

- The Battle for Targus VIII

- The Hunt for Voldorius (possibly canon)

- The Reclamation of Idos

- The Nibrosa Crusade

- The Rynn’s World Reclamation

- The Raid on Kastorel-Novem

- The Thirtieth Black Crusade

- The Battle for Ultramar

 

Yes, even a chapter which has a flawed gene-seed and is one of those ones which the Ultramarines look down upon for their “divergent heritage” managed to turn up for the Black Crusade and in bigger numbers. It’s also interesting that they were the ones willing to actually send reinforcements to Rynn’s World when the Ultramarines ignored it, and they were closer.

 

As for the Ultramarines always being on the forefront of battles: apparently not. Because if they had and if that statement wasn’t hyperbole to try and make Games Workshop’s favourite look better they might have actually turned up for one of the major battles outside of Ultramar.

They sit there and do next to nothing while other major conflicts take place across the galaxy, most likely because they have to keep enough forces there to defend the several dozen worlds they own. Hell, you’ve even provided your own force which’s description suggests they are far more active than the Ultras: The Novamarines.

 

Yes, you can get to any point within the galaxy in a certain amount of time. But that doesn't mean that the west end of the galaxy has any clue about what is happening on the east end of the galaxy. There are times when sectors and worlds like Fenris or Ultramar cannot be reached at all. Any Chapter appearing for a conflict on the other side of the galaxy is usually a result of chance much more than any deliberation.

And this all assumes that the Ultramarines were not part of any of the Black Crusade defense efforts.

 

Nothing of which suggests that they ever were, especially considering they never seem to grace major conflicts with their presence and a good number of their listed battles are against rebels or minor forces.

Yes, there are times when certain forces prevent travel to certain worlds but I don’t think Ultramar would conveniently be surrounded by Warp Storms every single time there was a major war within the Imperium. In addition to this, I don’t buy that messages about a major Chaos incursion by Abaddon himself would be so slow to reach other major worlds in the Imperium, especially of the “greatest chapter” in the Imperium.

 

And as cited before, if they’re so great at everything then their godlike engineers should have been able to build engines with enough power to get them to the Eye of Terror after the fighting had barely started. Yet for some reason they never show up.

 

There are 1,000 Chapters. Most engagements will only include a hand full of Chapters. Having one single Chapter be part of all of those engagements is statistically not only improbable, but impossible, seeing as many big engagements will be happening at the same time. It is not like most Chapetrs just sit around all day and wait several centuries for something exciting to happen.

 

Save of the Ultramarines it seems. And considering to the levels Ward boosted the Ultramarines to in terms of skill and arms I’m surprised he didn’t try to write in a bit about how all other chapters committed suicide upon learning how they would never be Ultramarines.

And again, these are space marines who are endlessly called “the best”. You would think they would at least be willing to give a token force for the largest battles of each centaury than apparently avoid them entirely. Their numbers shouldn’t matter, it’s not stopped a few other first founding chapters from turning up in several major wars across the Imperium. Usually with more marines than a single squad and not relying upon their successors to make up their numbers.

 

How many paragraphs about the Iron Hands or Crimson Fists were in the 4th or 3rd Editon Codex Space Marines? Oh, that's right: none.

 

And yet unlike the 4th and 3rd this codex was twice the size of its predecessor so it could allow for more space and more fluff to be given about the adeptus astartes as a whole. And what did it contain?

 

To quote one source:

 

The Imperial Fists for example.... The emperors praetorians. The defenders (along with the BA's) of the imperial palace (and along with the WS) of terra. Dorn, the commander of the loyalist forces... What did they get in they get in the 144 page codex? Chapter description (2 paragraphs), famous battles described -- most only a sentence or two long (4), and one special character (5 paragraphs). 7 paragraphs

 

The Raven Guard? Chapter description (2 paragraphs), hunt for voldorus (1 paragraph -- shared with WS), an alliance is forged (6 paragraphs -- shared with WS), taking of mankarra (6 paragraphs -- shared with WS), famous battles described (3), & one special character (6 paragraphs).

 

Salamanders? Chapter description (3 paragraphs), return to armageddon (5 paragraphs), famous battles described (4),& one special character (6 paragraphs).

 

White Scars? Chapter description (2 paragraphs), Hunt for voldorus (4 paragraphs -- last paragraph shared with RG), an alliance is forged (6 paragraphs -- shared with RG), taking of mankarra (6 paragraphs -- shared with RG), famous battles described (4), & one special character (4 paragraphs).

 

Iron Hands? Chapter description (2 sentences), purge of contqual (5 paragraphs), famous battles described (1), & no special characters.

 

The ultramarines? The Scouring and The Codex Astartes (6 paragraphs), History of the Ultramarines (39 paragraphs), Battles of the Ultramarines (59 paragraphs), Battles of the Ultramarines (25 battles), the zeist campaign (7 paragraphs), & six special characters (34 paragraphs). I won't even count the ultramarine chapter organization, 2nd company example, space marine power armor, heraldry, banners, and majority of artwork & painted models that are all Ultramarine as I agree, they are the epitome of codex based marines.

 

 

 

Just looking at fluff that has nothing to do with general space marine issues like heraldry or power armor where Ultramarines are simply the example that applies to everyone we have this...

 

 

Ultramarines

-Paragraph count: 135 paragraphs of fluff

-Battles described: 25

-Special characters: 6

 

 

All other 5 first founding chapters covered in this codex combined

-Paragraph count: 68 + 2 sentences of fluff

-Battles described: 16

-Special characters: 4

 

 

I think this is what I'm talking about. I hope this puts it in perspective. I don't mean to come across as whining, but more factually.

 

Ultramarines 135 paragraphs, 25 battles, and 6 characters to the IF's 7, 4, and 1. This for the chapter that is “second only to the Ultramarines.”

 

It’s inexcusable. What makes it worse is that the fluff given to the Ultramarines comes down to badly made swipes at every other chapter and expressions of how inferior they are to the Ward’s favourite chapter.

[Tutteman]

I think the point of the "Imagine they had been in all of the major conflicts" was the fact that if the Ultramarines HAD been in all of them you'd complain it was some sort of product placement.

 

No, I’d call the fact they’re on every space marine boxed set and codex, with every Ward written codex shoehorning in remarks about how great they are, to be product placement. Having “the best” turn up to a big battle would just be normal.

 

No, having the Best turn up to every battle in the entire GALAXY (with a current volume approx 7.85 trillion cubic light years) when this "Best" have only 1000 men would just be impossible. Seriously impossible. In fact I would EXPECT them to miss most major battles. If nothing else with a Galaxy so big it would quite possibly take Years to just to GET to the Eye of Terror from the Eastern Fringe. One source (its one of the wikis i admit) says thousands of Light Years in a day for warp travel, under that it could still take up to 100 days just to get from one side the other, assuming the Warp was nice and calm...I mean surely the best option for forces that are so damned far from the main action that they have a snowballs chance in hell of even getting there in time would be to carry on as normal where they are?

 

But here's a thing, GW focuses on Ultramarines. Great. Why do I care? Good for Ultramarines and their players. I on the other hand am quite happy with a DIY. I want to write my own fluff, I don't really care if GW want to focus on one chapter or declare they are very good. It is after all, a game of toy soldiers...Hardly worth an argument?

 

I care. They let one writer turn my chapter into bad parodies of their former selves, let him turn the Space Marine codex essentially into the “Ultramarines Codex” and declared all chapters besides Ultramarines to be either fanboys of them or aberrations who do not follow the codex and are drying out.

 

Hell, you’ve got your own chapter but thanks to Ward’s fluff they are now inept warriors who strive to follow Guilliman in every way, worship his name and are flawed because “they can never be Ultramarines.” You really don’t have a problem with that?

 

Now, Ultramarines having a big presence upon codexes, that’s nothing new. But giving them such a big role to the point where most first founding chapters have only a handful of paragraphs devoted to them and the explanation of the Horus Heresy marginalized to explaining how “Robute Guilliman is awersome!!!11!” is outright wrong.

 

I don't have a problem, because my chapter doesn't. In a way I sympathise more with you Codicier Lucion then those who simply Ultrahate, because you are more railing against what you see as Your Chapter being "destroyed". That's part of the reason I like having a DIY, that way the fluff is in MY hands. I admit, I don;t particularly like Matt Wards writings, but I don't hate the guy or anything. I mean at times I don't like Graham McNeil's writing style at times, but I don't let it spoil the whole book.

 

But I don't have problem with the "Ultramarines are a role model" idea. That doesn't mean every Chapter in the Galaxy tries to ape them. I mean there are people I know who would like to be like, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go out and try to be precisely like them in every respect. e.g. I would like to be as good at Clarinet as a particular girl I used to have lessons with. They doesn't mean I'm going to follow her around the shop buying precisely the same clothes...Maybe another time ^_^

 

Nor does it make the other Chapters useless or Inept. Continuing the example, this girl might have been better than me at Clarinet. But that didn't mean it wasn't a close thing. Nor did it mean I'm a total idiot...okay doesn't mean I'm not a total idiot but ;)

 

The Codex is not Gulliman's List of 435200454342354 commands that must be followed or else. Its a living document that evolves. But then my DIY doesn't follow it, why not? Because its more interesting to be able to add my own twist to my Chapter.

 

It’s listed on this site as being one of the major battles they were involved in and a victory they were part of when they did nothing in the slightest. I would call that glory stealing.

 

So...they presumably WERE involved in it? Apparently so were 13 other Task Groups of Marines not including the Astral Knights. And they were therefore presumably part of the Imperial Fleet that destroyed the World Engine after the Astral Knights sacrificed themselves to bring down its shields. Thats hardly nothing in the slightest?

 

Also somewhere (I fear laziness and a desire for my bed preclude quoting properly) "The Best shouldn't need help?" Umm sorry? No, the best would simply mean that they were...the best. Not that they are invincible. And part being good at something should surely be being prepared to admit you need help sometimes rather than simply trying to do it on your own out of pride?

[calgar101]

Lucion why are you Ultrahating us then? It is not our fault, blame Gw and Ward. The Ultramarines have and (probably) always will be the poster boys for the Space Marines. I think you may need to re-read every bit of background concerning the Ultramarines and indeed Space Marines in general or are you reading some new stuff that isn't privy to the rest of us yet?

[Marshal Rohr]

I have compiled a list of engagements that is twice as long as the Ultra one.

 

 

Just saying, if we are epeen measuring Templars win.

[Captain Idaho]

From what I've read in this thread the most amazing facts for 40k I learnt are;

 

1) Ultramarines read GW Codex books because they believe their hype and act accordingly.

 

2) It doesn't matter what you fight, if it didn't originate from the Eye of Terror and wear power armour it isn't a worthy foe.

 

3) If you have a long list of battles and campaigns you have fought in, they only count if the author wrote who wrote them is not well received therefore they didn't happen.

 

4) A lack of information means you are guilty of inaction throughout the time period that information should be covering, even though it is assumed the same lack of information for other factions within this universe is just down to lack of the correct application of resources.

 

Etc etc.

[Arkangilos]

Codicier Lucion, why don't you actually QUOTE the parts that you are using as an argument? Oh thats right, because they DON'T FIT.

 

Anyways, I myself said that the first founding Chapters are equal in an earlier post (so you should probably start learning how to actually read what we say, and actually read the sources and quotes).

 

You should probably also note that I had said earlier that I am NOT a fan of the Ultramarines, yet I understand their position.

 

You should probably also be less insulting to Ward and people who don't scream Ward Hate, and people who are on the other side. there is no reason to be an ass, and there is no reason to insult people.

 

But seriously, your posts do make it look like you don't even read the codex, because Legatus has actually posted quotes FROM the codex that completely contradict your arguement, and you yourself have not posted any quotes.

 

@ the "Codex was forced" ideas, if you read my original post, you can see that (from my perspective, which tries using fluff, but some things I had missed, some of those things were corrected by others, further down the line thankfully), it kind of says that it wasn't forced on them. They more or less chose to adopt it because they saw a need. The Ultras had been better off than the others, and they devised (with the help of others) a way to make them all better off. (though that was not in the OP). I could be wrong, but I think that its right. And remember what I had said, Guilliman survived TWO heresies like that. I'm sure he wanted to ensure that he never had to live through another, and the best way to do that was through the Codex guides.

 

@ the Non-Codex chapters are dieing out comments:

5th Edition SM CODEX actually says that it is the Strict Codex Chapters that are dieing off, and that more and more are diverging. Also, the SW aren't dieing off in fluff, and the BA have always been dieing off in fluff, and the BA are codex chapters anyways.. Name another non-codex chapter that is dieing off please. Oh, and please list a source and a quote.

 

++Edit, reworded++

[Captain Idaho]

It says the Codex Chapters are dying off? I missed that! I will go check my Codex in the morning, but where does it sat that?

 

Very interesting if true.

[Arkangilos]

It says the Codex Chapters are dying off? I missed that! I will go check my Codex in the morning, but where does it sat that?

 

Very interesting if true.

 

Well, the individual chapters are not, and I worded that kind of badly. What I meant to say was that Strict Codex Chapters are, Here is a quote from Codex Space Marines: "With the Passage of years some of these chapters have subsequently strayed from the strict letter of the codex, introducing new variatinos but remaining broadly faithful to the principles of Roboute Guilliman."

 

By this I see it like I see the BA and such. They are still "Codex," but they change some aspects. Yet they aren't dieing off...

[Marshal Rohr]

See wouldn't it be mind blowing if codex adherence was so broad Guilliman actually came up with alternate organizations in case a chapter needed something a little different to the standard 6/2/2. Or that we can fit anything we want to do within the Codex Adherence title, just like we can fit background in the game as well!?!

[Legatus]

Can you point to a specific source where a combined engagement is presented as their and only their victory? Because I don't really understand why the list of Ultramarine actions shouldn't mention any actions where other forces where involved.

The Zeist Campaign for starters. And that was in a section of the codex which wasn’t even devoted to them. It seems to be Games Workshop’s policy for any space marine victory to be and “Ultramarines” victory if it’s in the codex now. If any chapter wins alone they either have to team up or are almost completely wiped out.

Please go ahead and re-read the description of the Zeist campaign. It's on page 48 of the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. And then kindly point me toward the passage where it doesn't mention the involvement of other Chapters, like the three companies of the Knights of the Raven. The 2nd Company of the Ultramarines starts the campaign and calls for aid, as is customary in crusade efforts. Chapters regularly send some of their units on joint effort crusades. This one was initiated and led by the Ultramarines 2nd Company, and included detachments from many other Chapters. Where is your problem with this?

 

 

Again, I am not seeing the glory stealing.

It’s listed on this site as being one of the major battles they were involved in and a victory they were part of when they did nothing in the slightest. I would call that glory stealing.

How does providing a company, rallying the support from the other Chapters, and being in overall command amount to doing nothing in the slightest?

 

 

And the Ultramarines don’t seem to have been a part of any of those major conflicts. It’s always been other chapters, ones who actually engage in battles which take some effort to win, who fight in them. Chapters who are more deserving of being called “the greatest” rather than condescendingly described as being inferior to the Ultramarines.

 

Ward attempted to invent several minor wars which he describes the Ultramarines as single handedly fighting battles with the same importance as the Armageddon Wars and Black Crusades so no doubt you’ll get your wish to see them in major engagements.

I had provided a decent list of pre-ward engagements that were all against decent sized foes. No rebel worlds or anything (aside form one which had Chaos Marine support).

 

 

Again, not one single instance lists the Ultramarines as having fought in any Black Crusade save for the 13th.

If I look at the description of the Honour Company, then it seems they were indeed part of all of them.

 

"Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors."

(WD??, "Humanity's Shield - Chapters involved in the defence of Cadia")

 

If their sole purpose was to watch for traitor activity together with the Chapters stationed there for that purpose, it seems only logical that they would be involved in all actions against Chaos attempts to break out of the Eye of Terror.

 

 

Oh yes, you instantly ask for a list of cited victories by one of the most overlooked chapters whose codex is now being helmed by an author who seems to outright hate all but his favourite one. That’s fair isn’t it.

If you make ridiculous claims, you got to back them up with fluff. Them's the rules.

 

 

None the less there are a number of victories I do know of which are recorded. One of which will no dobut be overlooked by the Ultramarines despite their actions in saving Ultramar from a major traitor legion invasion.

 

- The Great Scourging

- The Baran Campaign

- The Downfall of Megarchy

- The Zypher Campaign

- The Battle for Targus VIII

- The Hunt for Voldorius (possibly canon)

- The Reclamation of Idos

- The Nibrosa Crusade

- The Rynn’s World Reclamation

- The Raid on Kastorel-Novem

- The Thirtieth Black Crusade

- The Battle for Ultramar

 

Yes, even a chapter which has a flawed gene-seed and is one of those ones which the Ultramarines look down upon for their “divergent heritage” managed to turn up for the Black Crusade and in bigger numbers. It’s also interesting that they were the ones willing to actually send reinforcements to Rynn’s World when the Ultramarines ignored it, and they were closer.

Which Chapter are you refering to now? Is that for the Raven Guard? But they weren't at a lot of those campaigns. Neither were the Crimson Fists. It would help if I knew what you were trying to say.

 

 

As for the Ultramarines always being on the forefront of battles: apparently not. Because if they had and if that statement wasn’t hyperbole to try and make Games Workshop’s favourite look better they might have actually turned up for one of the major battles outside of Ultramar.

They sit there and do next to nothing while other major conflicts take place across the galaxy, most likely because they have to keep enough forces there to defend the several dozen worlds they own.

Your conviction in your erroneous claims in the face of contradicting evidence is not commendable, in case that was what you were thinking.

 

 

Save of the Ultramarines it seems. And considering to the levels Ward boosted the Ultramarines to...

You know, it just occurred to me that it is pretty unfair that most of your hatred comes from the overly favourable Ward fluff which now makes you ask for Ultramarine engagements to prove that they really are that good, but we cannot use any of the newly given Ward engagements to justify it. B)

 

 

And yet unlike the 4th and 3rd this codex was twice the size of its predecessor so it could allow for more space and more fluff to be given about the adeptus astartes as a whole. And what did it contain?

In total page count, the Ultramarines have more pages in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines than they had in the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines. However, considering that the 5th Edition Codex has almost twice the number of total pages, the Ultramarines have actually a lower percentage of pages dedicated to them than they did in the 4th Edition Codex. Here is a page count (adding half and quarter pages together):

 

4th Codex:

84 pages total

34 pages about Ultramarines (40%)

12 pages about other Chapters (13%)

 

5th Codex

148 pages total

48 pages about Ultramarines (32%)

33 pages about other Chapters (22%)

 

While the total number of pages for Ultramarines was increased from 34 to 48 pages (+16p), that resulted in a change from 40% of the Codex being about them to 32% of the Codex being about them. In the 4th Edition Codex there were only about 12 pages dedicated to other Chapters, which was 13% of the total space. In the 5th Edition Codex there are 33 pages about other Chapters, for about 22% of the space (+21p).

 

But where the Ultramarines, as one of the "Big Four" Chapters, only have 48 pages dedicated to them specifically, the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels still have their own full Codex book all about them.

 

 

---

 

M2C:

I have compiled a list of engagements that is twice as long as the Ultra one.

Don't forget, you are not allowed to count battles against rebels or other such weak foes. And no battles liberating Black Templar recruitment worlds either. Only battles against tough enemies, and only battles they picked themselves. B)

[Brother Excedis]

@Legatus: I am perfectly happy to be corrected. That does make sense now that I think more about it. I guess when I started I just got pissed after reading how limited everyone was made by the codex and the UM's. Now I don't believe they are the best, I believe they are up there yes but not the best. Tied for first with BA's BT's SW's and IF's yeah...as well as the slamanders. Now that style of writing that he apparently did does make sense.

 

@Marshal: I understand your anger or annoyance but please. At least on my end it just seems like your ranting. I dont mean to offend but it does to me.

 

@Captain Idaho: I have to say your response....while slightly rude....was funny. It did make me laugh a little after the day I had so thank you. ;)

[Legatus]

@Legatus: I am perfectly happy to be corrected. That does make sense now that I think more about it. I guess when I started I just got pissed after reading how limited everyone was made by the codex and the UM's. Now I don't believe they are the best, I believe they are up there yes but not the best. Tied for first with BA's BT's SW's and IF's yeah...as well as the slamanders. Now that style of writing that he apparently did does make sense.

And it would be difficult to empirically prove why one of those Chapters is better in combat than the other, or why one of those Chapters would prevail where the others could not.

 

The Ultramarines have a special place in the minds of the Imperium because for one thing they accounted for more than half of the Space Marines who kept the Imperium together after the Heresy, so a lot of worlds will have ancient legends about the Ultramarines fighting for them, but only a fraction will have legends of the Imperial Fists or the Space Wolves in comparison. The Imperial Fists may have defended Terra, which is of course important, but for most of the millions of worlds of the Imperium, Terra is only a name of a distant world. But the worlds may have legends about how the Ultramarines came to their defense when the Imperium was about to crumble and alien raiders or chaos marauders attempted to conquer them. Then there is the issue with the Codex Astartes and the reforms of the Imperial military which lasted to this day, and for that reason alone, whenever in any schola seminar the Adeptus Astartes is discussed, they will naturally talk about the Ultramarines. For these reasons alone they are already more famous than the other eight Chapters of the First Founding. When you then add various issues of non-compliance or uncooperativeness (which you have with all other First Funding Chapters except perhaps the Imperial Fists and the Salamanders), it is not unreasonable to see why a representative of the Imperium might proclaim that the Ultramarines are indeed the most famous, and perhaps even the greatest of the Space Marine Chapters.

 

In part it is due to their conincidental role during the scouring. That was pure fate. In part it is because of the political changes Guilliman established after the Heresy. Those can be attributed to him, though they are often criticized by players not in favour of Guilliman (unjustly, as I myself feel). And then there is the pretty much spotless record of the Ultramarines, which may not seem like much of an accomplishment (since it has not much to do with ass kicking), but when added to the other factors cements their position. Only little of their fame has to do with being better fighters or killing more xenos or heretics than other Chapters. Though as a firm believer in the merits of the Codex Astartes I of course assume that their capabilities are among the top ranks, if not the top, to let my personal bias guide my judgement. (Of course I am allways more than willing to provide mountains of text evidence why that may indeed be the truth. ;) )

[Arkangilos]

(Of course I am allways more than willing to provide mountains of text evidence why that may indeed be the truth. :) )

 

Eh, you say that, but Dante has NEVER lost a single battle. Also, who had overall command of Armegeddon 2? Dante. Also, which primarch did the warmaster say it should have been? Sanguinius... Also, who alone embodied the emperor the most? Sanguinius... Also, who broke the back of Khorne's chosen daemon? Sanguinius... Also, which chapter protects the whole Galaxy? The Blood Angels... Also, which chapter is the most humble? the Blood Angels. Also, which chapter is the most awesome? The Blood Angels... Also, which chapter was SO FREAKIN AWESOME that it went ahead and accepted the Codex without a fight? The Blood Angels...

 

So, in my mind, the Blood Angels are far superior... ;)

[Brother Excedis]

While I am highly inclined to side with you Telanicus I feel like it might just devolve into a fanboy pissing match.

[Olis]

While I am highly inclined to side with you Telanicus I feel like it might just devolve into a fanboy pissing match.

 

It probably already has. ;)

[Arkangilos]

While I am highly inclined to side with you Telanicus I feel like it might just devolve into a fanboy pissing match.

 

It probably already has. ;)

 

Lol! Well, while there is truth in what I said, it was more of just a fun post :).

 

Like I said, I may not like the Ultras, but I know when people are right, and they were right :)

[The Emperor's Champion]

Man....

Yall went nuts.

For anyone quoting my list of battles for whatever assorted reasons, just beware that it's all sorts of incomplete. I just grabbed the part that was handy, since I don't feel like taking the time to go compile new lists.

 

 

Somewhere in this soupy mess text one of my Brothers mentioned how people would be surprised if GW explained that everyone gets along with the Ultramarines.

They did.

In fact, they explained that they really, seriously, get along with just about everyone. It's partly because they're genuinely good diplomats (one of Guilliman's traits they've inherited), and partly because they're actually NOT remotely arrogant. In fact, the Ultramarines are described as being somewhat humble. Generally, an Ultramarine DOESN'T seek glory for himself, or proclaim anything of his or his Chapter's greatness. They will, however, usually be happy to accept honours or glory GIVEN to them by their Chapter or others.

In fact, pride is regarded as an actual insanity by the Ultramarines after it reaches a certain level. One of the reasons Captain Sicarius is beginning to be regarded as dangerous is because he's a glory hound. He seems to be gripped by pride of uncomfortable levels, but it's not yet to the point that they'd consider it an insanity, because he was still elected and accepted supreme command by/of all Space Marine Chapters present in the Medusa V Campaign, and he did so quite diplomatically.

(Quite fitting for the Greco-Roman Chapter, since pride (hubris) was considered as kinda the worst thing ever by the ancient Greeks. It is, more often than not, the thing that finally gets their heroes killed in all manner of Greek myths.)

 

In fact, the Deathwatch finds itself with far more Ultramarines serving as its Watch-Captain and Masters than Marines from any other Chapter because of this diplomatic ability and humility. Where most leaders would have an impossible time of getting a Black Templar to fight alongside a Librarian from another Chapter, Ultramarines Watch-Captains tend to have a much better success rate. Same deal with trying to get a Dark Angel and a Space wolf to fight together, and other such inter-Chapter conflicts. While some Marines get too side-tracked trying to prove their Chapter is the best, or that another Chapter isn't the best, the Ultramarines don't get caught up in that sort of thing.

Even Marines from very non-Codex Chapters will willingly follow an Ultramarine into battle and trust his life to his command.

 

 

It's not without reason that the Primogenitor Chapters' Chapter Masters send representatives to Marneus Calgar's court. They do it because they know what the man is capable of, and because they know that together they can better coordinate the Segmentum-wide defense of the colossal Ultima Segmentum.

 

In case you're really wondering why the Ultramarines aren't mentioned on the other side of the galaxy too often, THAT is why. Ultima Segmentum is HUGE, and THAT is the Ultramarines' territory. The Ultramarines don't feel the need to necessarily make an appearance EVERYWHERE because they assume that the local Chapters SHOULD be more than capable of dealing with whatever problems arise in their areas.

That was what they had assumed during the 13th Black Crusade when the Ultramarines happened to be very preoccupied with the sudden expansion of the Tau Empire, which happens to be, you know, on their side of the galaxy....almost in their back yard.... But, just in case, Guilliman called together the Ultramarines Honour Company (a force made up of Ultramarines Squads, and Ultramarines Successor Squads from Chapters too far away to regularly attend to the Eye Of Terror. Probably somewhere between 500-2000 Marines, depending on how many Ultramarines Successors have Squads serving in it at any given time.) and stationed it permanently near the Eye Of Terror.

 

 

 

Anyhow....I figured I'd just drop in and see how the thread was going.

 

If any of my above stuff has been covered, sorry. I only skimmed after a while. Some of the logic was getting really hard to follow and the arguments appeared to be going in circles, so I skimmed a bit...

 

 

Relax, guys. Remember - hobby, fun, toy soldiers, super intelligent space monkeys.... The fluff is supposed to be all fighting all the time, not the hobby itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Marshal: I understand your anger or annoyance but please. At least on my end it just seems like your ranting. I dont mean to offend but it does to me.

:)

Nah. M2C is just being grouchy lately. In my mind he's like that friend who's just always got a sarcastic comment ready.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's because I have to pre-order the BT skin instead of eat this week. <_<

 

And psykers are icky.

[Tutteman]

I am not trying to say the Ultras are the best, lol :lol:.

 

MOVING back onto topic? Refering to the quote above I'm reminded of how Loken explains how the Mournival are selected. Sinderman suggests they are the best of the Captains. Loken replies with something like "My modesty is ashamed to use that word. The most appropriate." So ignoring the question of Ultramarines bestness. Ultramarines were the most appropriate. I can't imagine any other Legion (or Primarch) taking the lead.

 

And yes, Psykers are icky...Quick someone give M2C a witch to burn ^_^

 

EDIT: Hey, just noted the quote in my sig is from M2C! My thanks sir!

[Captain Idaho]

See wouldn't it be mind blowing if codex adherence was so broad Guilliman actually came up with alternate organizations in case a chapter needed something a little different to the standard 6/2/2. Or that we can fit anything we want to do within the Codex Adherence title, just like we can fit background in the game as well!?!

 

Dude, that is totally how I see Codex Adherent - broad!

 

The White Scars supported it and are now a Codex Chapter, yet still fight according to their traditions and are happy doing it. As an example.

 

The book is totally loose and Chapters have a lot of leeway to do their own thing.

 

The hard part which is ambiguious is where the line is drawn of being NOT adherent.

 

Oh guys, not trying to be rude earlier, just pointing out the repeated fallacies in some arguments I've seen which are rather silly and amusing.

[Codicier Lucion]

But why would players assume that the other Chapters don't get along with the Ultramarines because of that? That would suggest the opposite.

 

Besides that they’re now the “greatest of all chapters” and look down upon their backwards or inferior battle brothers from other lineages?

 

It wasmeant ironic, since a lot of people actually believe that the Space Wolves or the Imperial Fists have some sort of animosity toward the Ultramarines. And the Imperial Fists are one of the most Codex adherent Chapters out there, not just "partially adherent".

 

I know, but you should try telling Ward that. He’s convinced that all chapters are utter adherent to the codex and have no changes or differences of their own it seems. It also looks like his dislike for non codex chapters passed into the fluff based upon some of the things he’s stated about Russ and the Wolves in the codex.

 

But then again it’s probably the result of that fat <_<: having them envious of his precious, flawless, ever pure Ultramarines.

 

You are taking this way out of proportion. It has allways been the lore that Guilliman had established the Codex Astartes as the standard for Space Marine Chapters, and that not only as a First Founding Chapter but as the Chapter whose Primarch had mainly created the Codex the Ultramarines were seen as the exemplars of all Space Marines. Matt Ward just was bad ad describing that. The Other Chapters don't wish they were part of the Ultramarines, but they strive to be as prolific and effective as the Ultramarines. Not because Ultramarines are sooo dreamy, but because all a Space Marine wishes for is to serve the Emperor, and the Ultramarines are so good at that.

 

Again, that seemed to have been ditched in 2008 since Ward took over declaring all the crap he did about Guilliman. People should have seen the signs of things going wrong on the first page when the guy skipped retelling the Heresy in favour of praising Guilliman.

In addition to this, I quote these bits from an interview “all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege”.

 

Ward’s Ultramarines are the exact thing you state they are not, they are outright parodies of the Ultramarines of the fourth edition. Not as bad as the Grey Knights but certainly a monumental screw up by Games Workshop in recent years. According to the new fluff, all chapters do want to be Ultramarines, all chapters do follow Calgar over their own chapter master and all chapters do favour Guilliman over their own primarch. He wasn’t bad at describing it, he took aspects of the Ultramarines to their most extreme and made them caricatures of themselves.

 

Well, here are a few actions. All pre-ward, and ignoring those that were against rebels (unless traitor Marines were involved) and ignoring actions within Ultramar. However, I am counting actions where other Chapters or Imperial Forces were involved, because I cannot for the life of me understand your problem with those.

 

<snip>

 

At the time I would have had none, but looking back on them now with their new fluff and new details upon how AWESOME!!1!!!11lll they are, I get the distinct feeling that those victories would have only been declared as “Ultramarines victories” rather than being remembered as a joint effort between chapters. Ward would certainly edit out the Imperial Fists if he got his hands on the date, or had them being slaughtered due to their “divergent heritage” and innate inferiority only to be saved by the Ultramarines.

 

 

As a Space Marine homeworld, Macragge (and the rest of Ultramar) is not required to provide troops for the Imperial Guard. But the military of Macragge is so prosperous that they maintain several hundreds of regiments that are constantly ready to join the Imperial Guard if necessary. I was pointing this out to show that the notion that the Ultramarines are sitting in Ultramar and do nothing is pretty ridiculous, since not even all their PDF units are needed.

 

Great, now their basic conscripts are now better than most elite Imperial Guard forces and are so powerful that they can easily defend the entire empire with no apparent difficulty. And quite frankly I don’t buy it, it seems outlandish even in comparison to some of the stuff Ward produces.

If the PDF of Ultramar was so great and so powerful most of the Imperial Guard would have been based upon them in an instant. And the idea that they can easily hold off anything strong enough attack their empire without any help from the Ultramarines it hard to believe at best.

 

And again, if they’re not bothering to actually show up in any of the Imperium’s major wars in any considerable force then they seem to be either reserving themselves to fight them most basic of threats like rebels and Eldar pirates. The few times they actually seem to have fought anything dangerous was when they had to protect planets either in Ultramar or were apparently under their control.

 

I am having problems with your statements because you level accusations against them which you cannot back up with fluff, or which are flat our contradicted by fluff. The notion that the Ultramarines don't get out of Ultramar much is ridiculous.

 

Call it a theory then. As the Ultramarines seem so utterly unwilling to show up fighting anything besides relatively weak or easy enemies it seems that they are either holding back forces so they have enough power to fight the next big threat which attacked Ultramar. It would explain why the entire chapter was suddenly on hand to fight a massive Chaos invasion by the Iron Warriors and why they leave major battles to supposedly inferior chapters who lack their genetic supremacy. Perhaps they lost their nerve during the first Tyrannic War.

 

Also, I wouldn’t call hyperbole which states they are constantly on the forefront of every battle as fluff.

 

The notion that they only let others fight for them and then claim all the glory is ridiculous. Both of these statements can easily be refuted with only a few sources, and I do not have to pick up the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines to do it.

 

Which is naturally why “lesser” chapters like the Space Wolves seem to turn up to the big wars which have them fighting Black Crusades or daemon primarchs without a single Ultramarine in sight. If they are so superior and endlessly on the forefront of every major Imperial defense then surely they could be bothered to send even a small force into a fight.

 

With their “unbeatable” codex astartes and many other factors which make them instantly better than all other chapters surely they could beat back entire Tyranid invasions with only combat squads. [/mild sarcasm]

 

Your entire stance on the 5th Edition Codex is a massive overreaction. The gravest offense was made in a White Dwarf interview with Matt Ward, where he claimed that "all Chapters want to be like them". But even in that exaggerated statement, he was essentially correct. Just not in a "I wish I was an Ultramarine" sense, but more in an "I aspire to be as faithful a servant of the Emperor as the Ultramarines are" sense. And maybe there are a hand full of Chapters who are utterly convinced that their own way is the right way. Other than that, 99% of all Chapter are modeled more or less strictly after the Ultramarines example. That has been canon since 2nd Edition, it just was not emphasized as much since 3rd Edition. A newly created Chapter will naturally look to the Ultramarines as an example, and not to Chapter such as the Blood Angels or the Iron Hands. The Imperial Fists are also seen as an example in the 5th Edition Codex, btw., but then they also follow the Codex Astartes to the letter.

Yes, that passage in the Codex Space Marines is badly put. But the Ultramarines were already seen as the most famous and even "greates" Chapter long before that. The 5th Edition does not really change the position of the Ultramarines, it merely makes some comments about how they are regarded by other Chapters.

 

Christ you actually agree with Ward now in terms of how great and better they are than everything else. The statements weren’t exaggerated it was exactly as he saw them, exactly as their fans seem to think they are as well. Name a second founding chapter which was not loyal to the Emperor. Or hell, name a loyalist first founding chapter which is somehow less of a faithful servant to him than the Ultramarines, do you actually believe that the Iron Hands produce less faithful warriors to the Imperium for some reason?

 

 

I don’t think you would be taking this so well if your own chapter was suddenly to be declared subservient fanboys mimicking another force in the Imperium. And the idea that other chapters would forgo their own heritage and any combat stratagems they might have perfected in favour of cosplaying as Ultramarines is quite frankly just as bad as half of the declarations of the Ultramarines being innately superior to everyone:

 

White Scars Chapter Master: Another founding? Good, we can now create the Astral Spears.

First Captain: Good, I have the details of our heritage, tactics and gene-seed here-

Chapter Master: What!? Those outdated relics of a backwards force? Why would we use them? Give them the codex astartes and tell them to paint their armour blue, do not bother giving them our infinitely inferior tactics on warefare.

First Captain: Excuse me?

Chapter Master: Actually, about the name, tell them that they’re now called the Ultra Scars. Our divergent heritage might prevent us from ever becoming Ultramarines but we shall ever follow the true primarch Guilliman over that inferior primate Khan!

 

Unfortunately considering some of the things in the 5th edition codex that might as well be how chapters behave on foundings now.

 

Despite what some might claim the codex isn’t some perfect book of war which instantly makes the Ultramarines superior to everyone who does not follow it. The Black Templars certainly did better than the Ultramarines in fighting the Tau, the Raven Guard were certainly better at tactical strikes and recon and last I saw the Space Wolves were not suffering for not using the codex. Ward was not right in the slightest.

If this is the way most Ultramarines players view their own chapter then it was a mistake that I did not stop using them sooner than I did.

 

Please go ahead and re-read the description of the Zeist campaign. It's on page 48 of the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines. And then kindly point me toward the passage where it doesn't mention the involvement of other Chapters, like the three companies of the Knights of the Raven. The 2nd Company of the Ultramarines starts the campaign and calls for aid, as is customary in crusade efforts. Chapters regularly send some of their units on joint effort crusades. This one was initiated and led by the Ultramarines 2nd Company, and included detachments from many other Chapters. Where is your problem with this?

 

You mean besides chapters instantly throwing themselves at the Ultramarines feet and begging them to be allowed to fight in their name? How about the part where their victory is instantly attributed to the Ultramarines and the tactics they used, despite several the “inferior” chapters they had called upon were far more familiar with the strategies used. Any victory made is attributed to the Ultramarines and the forces they called for aid are regulated as essentially having tagged on behind them.

 

The problem is that this condescending nature of the Ultramarines being utterly superior to all and looking down upon others is spread out throughout the entire damn codex. Take for example the Knights of the Raven you mentioned. The only bit of fluff they are given is that they had a disagreement with the Aurora Chapter and in penance Calgar ordered them to perform attacks upon a Tyranid hive fleet. As for the Ultra-fanboys the Aurora Chapter? Nothing happened to them for they carry Guilliman’s gene-seed there for naturally any fault lies with the genetic mistakes of Corax’s chapters.

 

How does providing a company, rallying the support from the other Chapters, and being in overall command amount to doing nothing in the slightest?

 

They turned up, performed some quick half hearted honours to the chapter which had actually died winning the fight did all the work then claimed the glory for themselves.

They were not stated to be in overall command of the attack against the World Engine, they did not do anything to rally the forces, they sat back and did nothing then finished an already crippled enemy. They did nothing and yet they apparently have victory partially attributed to them and a huge part of the ending noted towards their actions.

 

I had provided a decent list of pre-ward engagements that were all against decent sized foes. No rebel worlds or anything (aside form one which had Chaos Marine support).

 

The only decent foes the alone Ultramarines seem to willingly face are those suddenly shoehorned in by Ward in his endless efforts to prove that they are the only worthwhile chapters and the ones who attacked Macragge.

Despite apparently being so great that a single company should have conquered the entire Eye of Terror they constantly need to have someone holding their hand for most battles. No doubt you and Ward will attribute that to other Imperial forces wanting to have the honour of basking on the Ultramarines’ glory before they died.

 

As you said yourself, nearly all the victories that are attributed to the Ultramarines have the note they actually had to do them with other Imeprial forces helping them. Even to one so simple as a small force of Chaos Space Marines creating a human rebellion or taking the fight against Orks. Hell, they actually think it’s worth noting the defeat of basic pirates as some great victory worthy of sagas.

The only occasions they seem to face any enemy alone they seem to engage forces so small they have no chance of winning against them, or sneak past them. Surely these must be lies and the ever superior Ultramarines did fight these foes head on and butcher them by the hundreds with ease.

 

If I look at the description of the Honour Company, then it seems they were indeed part of all of them.

 

"Ten thousand years ago. in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines, decreed that his chapter would stand ready to oppose the Traitors that fled to the Eye of Terror should they ever return to plague the Imperium. The Ultramarines took no part in the Battte of the Emperor's Palace, as they were fighting half a galaxy away, and Guilliman was determined that his chapter would never find itself unable to respond to such a threat again.

The solution was to ensure a continuous presence in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror, by maintaining an honour guard made up of individual squads from different companies. In time, the chapter's commitments across the Imperium necessitated that the other Primogenitor chapters - the second founding successors of the Ultramarines, should also provide squads.

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors."

(WD??, "Humanity's Shield - Chapters involved in the defence of Cadia")

 

If their sole purpose was to watch for traitor activity together with the Chapters stationed there for that purpose, it seems only logical that they would be involved in all actions against Chaos attempts to break out of the Eye of Terror.

 

And as soon as Ward takes over for the fifth edition suddenly the Ultramarines are present in just about every last war and excused for being late for the entire damn Heresy. Who’s surprised.

Interesting that even then they seem to rely upon allied forces to boost their numbers and can’t even be bothered to show up with more than a handful of their number each time. Even more interesting that there is no note of the several chapters nearby ever doing this despite being much closer to the fighting.

No doubt that will be put down to them tagging on and seeking to be named worthy in the eyes of the “second only to the Emepror” Ultramarines. And that the inactivity of the other chapters will be put down to the Ultramarines being the only force worthy for the job.

 

If you make ridiculous claims, you got to back them up with fluff. Them's the rules. B)

 

That doesn’t seem to have stopped current Ultramarines players or codex writers writing obvious exaggerations as factual fluff. You must really enjoy being able to declare the entire damn chapter as being the greatest thing in 40K and instantly better than all other forces as a result of someone putting a gibbering fool in charge of the fifth edition.

 

Which Chapter are you refering to now? Is that for the Raven Guard? But they weren't at a lot of those campaigns. Neither were the Crimson Fists. It would help if I knew what you were trying to say.

 

Sorry, that was the Raven Guard, I thought I said. And yes, they were in all of those campaigns. Though considering the available information on them I don’t think you are correct:

 

The Baran Campaign (224.M41) - Decades after the colonization of Baran the Eldar of Biel-Tan arrived to find the Exodite colony wiped out by Orks and their world infested with greenskins and humans. Filled with a burning need for vengeance the Fire Dragon Exarch Mauryon led a campaign against the Feral Orks of Baran, driving them from ancient Eldar sites in the deep forests. Unable to face the Eldar in battle the Orks began a mass exodus from the forests that brought them into furious conflict with the Baran Siegemasters and their Fortress Cities. As the colony cities came under ever more intense assault the defenders realized their position was ultimately hopeless if they did not receive support, Governor Asaberra dispatched what reserves he had from the Capitol of Enderra to the most isolated colonies but realized it was a delaying measure at best, and so he called upon the Raven Guard on their moon of Coron for aid. Shadow Captain Moradius chose not to deploy to the embattled Fortress Cities however as his forces were too few to effectively aid in the defense of so many isolated sieges. Captain Moradius was more concerned with what was driving the Orks from the forests than he was of the Orks themselves, for in war it is the unknown that proves most dangerous. Determined to discover the cause for the Ork attacks the Raven Guard returned to Baran. (Fanatic Issue. ???)

 

The Downfall of the Megarchy (748.M41) - In 748.M41 the Hive World of Thruskus denounced the Imperial Creed. The stirring oratories of the local ruling council of elders known as the Megarchy whose charismatic and persuasive oratory held the hives of Thruskus in their thrall. However their rule was short lived. The Raven Guard strike like lightning, defeating the Megarchs and hanging them from their own hive spires. Within a day of the Megarch's death the world of Thruskus is brought back to compliance.

 

The Zypher Campaign (914.M40) - In 914.M40 Ork Warlord Arbuttz the Incredible launched a massive Ork Waaagh that swept through dozens uninhabited systems on the far south western rim of the galaxy before eventually slaughtering their way through several Eldar Exodite colonies and smashing into an area of Imperial frontier space known as the Zypher sub-sector. A dozen Imperial worlds fell to the Ork Waaagh before it ran out of steam on the Imperial Deathworld of Gorang and petered out. As the Waaagh came to an end the Orks had conquered the entire Zypher sub-sector, which they subsequently inhabited and transformed into a new Ork Empire. For nearly three hundred years the Ork empire went uncontested until in 204.M41 the Imperium finally responded. A Crusade spearheaded by forces from the Marauders, Eagle Warriors, Revilers and Raven Guard Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes with more than two dozen Regiments of the Imperial Guard in support swept into the Zypher sub-sector and initiated a long and grueling war against the Ork inhabitants. The campaign took twenty years to complete but by 224.M41 the Zypher sub-sector was declared free of xenos taint.

 

The Hunt for Voldorius (???) – Raven Guard and White Scars team up to hunt down daemon prince. Possibly canon due to a better author trying to selvedge Ward’s tripe. (Novel)

 

The Reclamation of Idos (???) – Raven Guard elements deployed against Tyranids on the world of Idos to stall Tyranids and inflict damage upon the swarm. (Audio book Helion Rain)

 

The Battle for Targus VIII (Unknown date.M41) - Captain Shrike and an elite team of infiltrators found themselves cut off behind the lines of the Ork’s when their pickup Thunderhawk was shot down. For more than two years Shrike and his marines fought a guerrilla war deep in Ork held territory, stealing supplies and munitions, sabotaging Ork installations, ambushing and slaughtering the greenskins whenever they could, as well as relaying vital intelligence to the Imperium’s forces fighting in the campaign. Shrike’s actions brought the campaign to a successful conclusion decades earlier than predicted and earning the legendary captain the Laurel Imperialis. (Fourth edition codex)

 

The Rynn’s World Reclamation (989.M41) – Raven Guard ships noted amongst armada sent to Rynn’s World to drive off the Ork Waaagh! besieging the remaining Crimson Fist space marines. (Novel Rynn’s World)

 

 

Nimbosa Crusade, The Battle for Nimbosa (992.M41) The Raven Guard 3rd Company under the command of Shrike assaulted the Tau positions on the planet and forced the xenos to retreat sometime during the Campaign, though the current status of the planet is unknown, it is believed to still be contested. (Fourth edition space marine codex)

 

The Raid on Kastorel-Novem (992-996.M41) - The Orks of Waaagh Garaghak invaded the Kastorel-Novem sector in 952.M41, swiftly taking over the area and transforming Kastorel-Novem into a manufacturing center for all manner of Ork war-machines. In 988.M41 Waaagh Garaghak strikes at the sector Capitol of Forsarr and in 992.M41 the Raven Guard arrive to assist the Imperial defenders and launch a raid on the center of the Ork productions on Kastorel-Novem. The Raven Guard task force is commanded by the renowned Shadow Captain Korvydae, who commands elements from the 1st, 5th, 8th and 10th Companies. (Imperial Armour Eight)

 

Thirteenth Black Crusade, The Reclamation of Kathur (999.M41) - When the Imperial Shrine World of Kathur fell to the plague of unbelief during the Thirteenth Black Crusade, a force of Raven Guard from the 5th Company was deployed under Captain Corvane Valar and Codicier Zauren Kale. (Cadian Blood)

 

The Battle for Ultramar (999.M41) - While the Ultramarines were obviously at the forefront of the battle to save Ultramar when the empire came under assault by a massive invasion force of the arch-enemy, they were not alone. Captain Aethon Shaan and a full squad of the Chapter's finest warriors were dispatched to recover the renegade Captain Ardaric Vaanes. Fighting alongside the Ultramarines 4th Company, the warriors of Captain Shaan proved to be an invaluable asset, turning the tide of battle multiple times when it swung against the forces of the Ultramarines. (The Chapter’s due, possibly non-canon thanks to Matt Ward’s spiteful addition of a small continuity screw up to the Blood Angels codex)

 

You were saying?

 

Your conviction in your erroneous claims in the face of contradicting evidence is not commendable, in case that was what you were thinking.

 

Ward’s fanfiction does not count as contradicting evidence.

 

You know, it just occurred to me that it is pretty unfair that most of your hatred comes from the overly favourable Ward fluff which now makes you ask for Ultramarine engagements to prove that they really are that good, but we cannot use any of the newly given Ward engagements to justify it. B)

 

I’m not accepting anything produced by that waste of flesh and blood as adding anything to the story. None of it is canon, no matter how much you might want the Ultramarines to be regarded as infinitely superior to all other chapters, to the point where they ignore their own primarch in favour of Guilliman.

 

In total page count, the Ultramarines have more pages in the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines than they had in the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines. However, considering that the 5th Edition Codex has almost twice the number of total pages, the Ultramarines have actually a lower percentage of pages dedicated to them than they did in the 4th Edition Codex.

 

And yet the fluff itself is far worse, declaring the Ultramarines to be the only good chapter and calling the other chapters of the Imperium essentially either people trying to exactly copy the Ultramarines or are backwards fools for not doing so. Plus for every hard won victory or draw he unwillingly added to the codex he made sure to shoehorn in an equally long love letter to the Ultramarines showing them doing far better and with apparent ease.

 

At least the writers of the last codex didn’t embrace your idea that the Ultramarines are instantly superior to all other forces and can easily out do anyone at any form of combat without breaking a sweat. Or have quite so many pointless pages crammed in expressing how the Ultramarines are instantly better than everyone else.

 

But where the Ultramarines, as one of the "Big Four" Chapters, only have 48 pages dedicated to them specifically, the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels still have their own full Codex book all about them.

 

I’m sure everyone would be happy if the Ultramarines got their own codex or White Dwarf update so they could be played separately and more time could be given to otherwise ignored chapters. Most Ultramarines players think they should have their own codex and most space marine players are sick and tired of badly written tributes explaining how the Ultras only chapter worth using taking up so much space in each codex. Heaven only knows what kind of abominations Ward would inflict upon the game if this was the case though.

 

And at the end of the day they’re simply either too badly written or not interesting enough to warrant so much space being devoted to them in each codex. Once they might have, but definitely not now people apparently have accepted that Ward was right.

 

Also you missed Black Templars as one of the big chapters.

[Arkangilos]

Again, you failed to provide proof. Where in the codex does it say the chapters have animosity towards the Ultramarines? Where does it say in fluff that they hate them? Oh, thats right, no where, because you have NO idea what you are talking about.

 

You keep saying things, but you fail to back up your claims, which only furthers the idea that you need to go reread some fluff.

 

AND IF YOU WOULD ACTUALLY READ THE CODEX, YOU WOULD SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT MORE CHAPTERS ARE BECOMING LESS STRICT ON FOLLOWING THE CODEX! MORE CHAPTERS ARE ACCEPTING A BROAD INTERPRITATION OF IT! READ THE CODEX BEFORE MUTTERING YOUR IGNORANCE.