The Legions After

[calgar101]

WIth each and every post Lucion you appear to be more toolish than before.

[Tutteman]

Can I quickly interject I don't think I've ever seen an Ultramarine player who quite behaves the way Codicier Lucion seems to think they do. I don't play Ultramarines, I don't think it matters if they're considered fabulous. Just to clarify. :P

[calgar101]

I've never met an Ultramarine player who thinks on the same wave length as Ward but I do fear all the new young players will digest his hyperbolic crap and believe it as fact. The Ultramarines like any other chapter have great achievements but due to their age as a chapter their list of glories is far longer than most. I could go on but it seems Lucion is to set in his view for me to bother with.

[Captain Idaho]

Why don't we all ignore Codicier Lucian's posts since he ignores all the back ground material published himself?

[Codicier Lucion]

I've never met an Ultramarine player who thinks on the same wave length as Ward but I do fear all the new young players will digest his hyperbolic crap and believe it as fact. The Ultramarines like any other chapter have great achievements but due to their age as a chapter their list of glories is far longer than most.

 

You mean besides Legatus and The Emperor's Champion, both of who seem to think that Ward was entirely right he just wasn't subtle enough in ramming how invincible the Ultramarines are down peoples throats?

There's Telanicus for starters, who seems to believe that everything Ward writes is pure gold and will defend it so long as Ward keeps giving him broken army lists to easily win games with.

And then there's every single last damn Ultramarines player in my local store, even the older ones seem to be agreeing that Ward's stuff is entirely accurate and that their chapter is finally getting the praise it deserves. I wish I was joking about that last part.

[Gree]

But why would players assume that the other Chapters don't get along with the Ultramarines because of that? That would suggest the opposite.

 

Besides that they’re now the “greatest of all chapters” and look down upon their backwards or inferior battle brothers from other lineages?

 

Actually the Deathwatch book notes that they are one of the most diplomatic amoung the Astartes and are good with almost everyone when it comes to compromises.

 

Great, now their basic conscripts are now better than most elite Imperial Guard forces and are so powerful that they can easily defend the entire empire with no apparent difficulty.

 

Where is this stated? Ultramarine PDF are certainly highly trained and competent but when you get into talking about the Imperial Guard elite such as the Kasrkin. It's certainly mentioned nowhere in the fluff that they can defend Ultramar with'' no appearent dificulty.'' You exaggerated that.

 

If the PDF of Ultramar was so great and so powerful most of the Imperial Guard would have been based upon them in an instant. And the idea that they can easily hold off anything strong enough attack their empire without any help from the Ultramarines it hard to believe at best.

 

You are taking what he said out of context and exaggerating it.

 

And again, if they’re not bothering to actually show up in any of the Imperium’s major wars in any considerable force then they seem to be either reserving themselves to fight them most basic of threats like rebels and Eldar pirates. The few times they actually seem to have fought anything dangerous was when they had to protect planets either in Ultramar or were apparently under their control.

 

What are you talking about? The Ultramarines have fought in many of the Imperium's major wars, they have had a prescense of at least some of the Black Crusades, fought at Second Armageddon, formed half the Astartes in the Scouring, Corinthian Crusade, the Boros Crusade and they are one of the major forces protecting the Eastern Fringe, a placed noted as being the lawless frontier of the Imperium essentially.

 

It would explain why the entire chapter was suddenly on hand to fight a massive Chaos invasion by the Iron Warriors and why they leave major battles to supposedly inferior chapters who lack their genetic supremacy. Perhaps they lost their nerve during the first Tyrannic War.

 

Incorrect, the Third, Sevent and Eight Companies were not present at Ultramar during Honsou's invsion, but were instead being recalled. Other companies were being recalled when news of the invasion came (Like Uriel's)

 

Which is naturally why “lesser” chapters like the Space Wolves seem to turn up to the big wars which have them fighting Black Crusades or daemon primarchs without a single Ultramarine in sight. If they are so superior and endlessly on the forefront of every major Imperial defense then surely they could be bothered to send even a small force into a fight.

 

Their are a Ultramarines and they have the Eastern Fringe to protect. One cannot reasonable expect them to be everywhere.

 

With their “unbeatable” codex astartes and many other factors which make them instantly better than all other chapters surely they could beat back entire Tyranid invasions with only combat squads. [/mild sarcasm]

 

Where exactly is the Codex Astartes meant to be unbeatable?

 

The Black Templars certainly did better than the Ultramarines in fighting the Tau,

 

They did? Where exactly was this stated?

 

You mean besides chapters instantly throwing themselves at the Ultramarines feet and begging them to be allowed to fight in their name?

 

Where was this? I recall the head of the First Founding chapter asking for aid and it being given to him. Astartes coming together for a joint Crusade is certainly not unknown. There was nothing in the text about the Astartes from other Chapters begging or throwing themselves at their feet.

 

How about the part where their victory is instantly attributed to the Ultramarines and the tactics they used, despite several the “inferior” chapters they had called upon were far more familiar with the strategies used.

 

Good question. what part? The text says nothing about the victory being attributed to the Ultramarines or sole credit being given to them.

 

Any victory made is attributed to the Ultramarines and the forces they called for aid are regulated as essentially having tagged on behind them.

 

Again, where is this?

 

The problem is that this condescending nature of the Ultramarines being utterly superior to all and looking down upon others is spread out throughout the entire damn codex. Take for example the Knights of the Raven you mentioned. The only bit of fluff they are given is that they had a disagreement with the Aurora Chapter and in penance Calgar ordered them to perform attacks upon a Tyranid hive fleet. As for the Ultra-fanboys the Aurora Chapter? Nothing happened to them for they carry Guilliman’s gene-seed there for naturally any fault lies with the genetic mistakes of Corax’s chapters.

 

The Codex says nothing about Calgar ordering them to perform hit and run attacks on the Tyranid Hive fleet. It says Calgar ended the conflict, but nothing more. And it says nothing about the Knights of the Raven being Corax's sucessors, which is another one of your assumptions.

 

They turned up, performed some quick half hearted honours to the chapter which had actually died winning the fight did all the work then claimed the glory for themselves.

 

No they did't. The Ultramarines were of the chapters that attempted to stem the tide of the World engine na dit says nothing about them stealing the glory at all. Actually it's the opposite with the Astral Knights being honored.

 

They were not stated to be in overall command of the attack against the World Engine, they did not do anything to rally the forces, they sat back and did nothing then finished an already crippled enemy. They did nothing and yet they apparently have victory partially attributed to them and a huge part of the ending noted towards their actions.

 

Incorrect. It says nothing about the Ultramarines sitting back and doing nothing or having the victory partially attributed to them. As for the eneding they were noted to having retrived the wreckage and paid tribute to the Astral Knights.

 

The only decent foes the alone Ultramarines seem to willingly face are those suddenly shoehorned in by Ward in his endless efforts to prove that they are the only worthwhile chapters and the ones who attacked Macragge.

 

Incorrect, they've always been one of the most noted and famous chapters in the Imperium. They guard the Eastern Fringe, etc, etc. It's ridiculous to tyhink a First Founding chapter would not have faced worthy foes in ten millenia of warfare, especailly on the Eastern Fringe of all places.

 

Despite apparently being so great that a single company should have conquered the entire Eye of Terror they constantly need to have someone holding their hand for most battles. No doubt you and Ward will attribute that to other Imperial forces wanting to have the honour of basking on the Ultramarines’ glory before they died.

 

What exactly are you talking about? I rarely recall the Ultramarines ''having their hands to be held.'' and all Astartes chapters usually operate with the support of Imperial Guard and Navy, it's how the Imperium works. The Astartes don't do heavy attrition.

 

As you said yourself, nearly all the victories that are attributed to the Ultramarines have the note they actually had to do them with other Imeprial forces helping them.

 

If by helping you mean support then, yes, but one could says the same of almost any other Chapter. Astartes usually form one part of s larger war machine in the Imperium's wars.

 

Even to one so simple as a small force of Chaos Space Marines creating a human rebellion or taking the fight against Orks. Hell, they actually think it’s worth noting the defeat of basic pirates as some great victory worthy of sagas.

 

Do you mind posting quotes or actual context for these claims?

 

The only occasions they seem to face any enemy alone they seem to engage forces so small they have no chance of winning against them, or sneak past them. Surely these must be lies and the ever superior Ultramarines did fight these foes head on and butcher them by the hundreds with ease.

 

Are you familar with Astartes warfare? Surgical strikes and percision assualts are something all Astartes do. they can force a planet to surrender but they can't really hold a planet or engage in heavy seige warfare without huge losses.

 

Again, would you mind providing examples and quotes in context for proper comparison?

 

And as soon as Ward takes over for the fifth edition suddenly the Ultramarines are present in just about every last war and excused for being late for the entire damn Heresy. Who’s surprised.

 

What are you talking about? The Honor Company had been around since early 4th edition and the Scouring fluff since Second Edition.

 

Interesting that even then they seem to rely upon allied forces to boost their numbers and can’t even be bothered to show up with more than a handful of their number each time. Even more interesting that there is no note of the several chapters nearby ever doing this despite being much closer to the fighting.

No doubt that will be put down to them tagging on and seeking to be named worthy in the eyes of the “second only to the Emepror” Ultramarines. And that the inactivity of the other chapters will be put down to the Ultramarines being the only force worthy for the job.

 

You do realize that the Ultramarines are literally on the other side of the galaxy from Cadia and have the Eastern Fringe to protect amoung a multitude of responsitibities? And that others chapters usually don't need to do that because they are closer to Cadia and enjoy advantages that the Ultramarines don't?

 

(The Chapter’s due, possibly non-canon thanks to Matt Ward’s spiteful addition of a small continuity screw up to the Blood Angels codex)

 

First of all Ward wrote the Blood Angels Codex, McNeill wrote Chapter's Due, and M'kar breaking out of his prison was published in Iron Warrior, which was written before the BA Codex. (I assume that's what you are talking about.)

 

 

 

 

I apologize for the double post but I reached my quote limit.

 

Ward’s fanfiction does not count as contradicting evidence.

 

No, that is your opinion.

 

So in other words when something that disagrees with your personal opinions comes up we arn't allowed to use it when debating you. That's nice to know. :P

[calgar101]

Behind the gross misuse of exaggeration of Ward there does lie truth to his writings, a fair chunk of the background in there about the Ultramarines is copied and pasted straight from the 2nd Ed Ultramarine codex so has been around for a long time. It is frustrating to see the history of one of my favourite chapters being trampled in the dirt by some guy who can barely write. To be honest though even if we had better background written by those who know what they;re doing (Abnett or Bowden) we'd still get all this crap. I can reference several incidents in other Marine codex's that just seem way over the top (coincidence that they too are Ward codex's?) but no matter what Ultramarines will always get flak.

 

it is tiring and laughable that these threads are popping up with much more frequency lately, do people have nothing else to do in the summer than troll? Legatus and TEC are ardent Ultra fans and their knowledge of that Chapter is pretty damn vast and they will use that to refute and dispute Wards spin and haters claims about their Chapter. They are not the only guys on here who are fans of a particular chapter so much, several others spring to mind here.

[Arkangilos]

I've never met an Ultramarine player who thinks on the same wave length as Ward but I do fear all the new young players will digest his hyperbolic crap and believe it as fact. The Ultramarines like any other chapter have great achievements but due to their age as a chapter their list of glories is far longer than most.

 

You mean besides Legatus and The Emperor's Champion, both of who seem to think that Ward was entirely right he just wasn't subtle enough in ramming how invincible the Ultramarines are down peoples throats?

There's Telanicus for starters, who seems to believe that everything Ward writes is pure gold and will defend it so long as Ward keeps giving him broken army lists to easily win games with.

And then there's every single last damn Ultramarines player in my local store, even the older ones seem to be agreeing that Ward's stuff is entirely accurate and that their chapter is finally getting the praise it deserves. I wish I was joking about that last part.

 

And then there is Codicier Lucion, who has no idea what he is talking about, and doesn't know how to read the codex, or post quotes to support his claims. I guess he doesn't know how to post quotes, but he obviously needs to learn, because his arguement has no supporting evidence...

[Marshal Rohr]

Thank you Telanicus, for providing us another thread in which to scream at each other.

 

Sadly I hear the distant whine of a melta and perhaps a few incoming warnings to those of us who delved into personal attacks.

 

Just another chapter in Mat Wards secret alpha legion plan to incite animosity amognst the player base so he can overthrow Alan Merett and reveal his true plan to get everyone to play warmachine.

[Arkangilos]

Eh, to be honest, I still loved the conversation. Some of the posters still tried contributing to the OP despite those who did nothing but insult ward when it was not necessary.

 

+Edit+

 

And you notice, its the same person showing up in all of these threads, throwing the exact same insults, bashing the exact same person (Ward) who causes all of these discussions to go off topic, and cause all of them to yell.

 

It wasn't the post that caused it, it was the same person of which I speak that derailed things.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Eh, to be honest, I still loved the conversation. Some of the posters still tried contributing to the OP despite those who did nothing but insult ward when it was not necessary.

 

+Edit+

 

And you notice, its the same person showing up in all of these threads, throwing the exact same insults, bashing the exact same person (Ward) who causes all of these discussions to go off topic, and cause all of them to yell.

 

It wasn't the post that caused it, it was the same person of which I speak that derailed things.

 

it does take 2 to tango. the main people in this latest waste of thread are the same people in every single for/against Ultra/Ward "debate".

 

this is becoming a pretty standard series of posts here on B&C, regardless of what subforum you pop into. i have now seen this in 3 different subforums. both sides arent entirely wrong, but neither sides are entirely right. its another case of GW not doing their jobs and the fans sqaubbling over the scraps.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

And this topic was not even about whether or not the Ultramarines are the best, it was whether or not they had the right to lead in the reformations.

 

That is the debate that is supposed to be, so we can attempt to get back on track.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And this topic was not even about whether or not the Ultramarines are the best, it was whether or not they had the right to lead in the reformations.

 

That is the debate that is supposed to be, so we can attempt to get back on track.

 

thats the point...like Orks, both sides seem ready to spring into action with piles of quotes regardless of whatever the original topic was about.

 

but, to be honest, after re-reading your initial post, this was inevitable. kinda why i tried to stay away and wait for the fireworks to happen.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Only, here is the thing, if you don't like the subject, don't post, and you don't have to worry about it going south.

 

I mean seriously, what is the point in posting in something if all you plan to do is insult and bring it down? Why not just skip it? If you are going to post, why not offer a reasonable discussion rather than derail it?

[Marshal Rohr]

They didn't really have any right to lead the reforms at all. They simply did and what happened, happened. Guilliman had traits suited to the task, yet had no sovereign rights over his brother Primarch. The issue has never been about what the codex says or the tactics inside, what the Codex teaches chapters to do is fight as strike forces instead of armies.

 

The issue comes from players like me, who think that a consolidated command structure in a legion form with a full functioning navy is superior to a decentralized chapter built to act as a strike force without a heavy navy, and players who feel the opposite.

 

Luckily, GW solved this by giving me the Black Templars, who have the ability to feild more men in more places than a codex chapter as well as a fleet capable of fighting without imperial naval support. Both these things are present in the background and on the table.

 

Since getting both sides to agree is about as subjective as subjective gets we will always argue about it. For the most part 'the regulars' can sit here and debate without hard feelings, yet the occasional tongue in cheek teasing here and there to liven the mood.

 

 

The part I have come to accept about organization is that the codex covers everything. If I want a siege army I've got forge world, and they say in a siege the chapter will be more integrated under a single leader. In my head I decide that when this happens the chapter will change organization, company markings will be redone into legion colors primus or something so I can have my imperial fists with black trims, etc. Because I can make what I want in the universe I don't need GW to tell me I can do it.

 

If I want to field an Imperial Fist armored company it's the ninth co deploying in all tanks. If I want to field my Marshals Household I'll use Deathwing or Loganwong rules. If I want to field a unit that doesn't exist in the background I'll make up rules for it. All the while saying it's in the Codex because I can.

 

GW has lost control of their IP, so I am making my own rules for the universe.

 

It's the best feeling in tge world.

 

The real problem comes when people bring Ward up. Don't get me wrong. I hate him. He's a hack. But I've come to my zen point with canon so I ignore the things I don't like and create in my head a more congenial universe.

[augustmanifesto]

Just to chime in on this ultramarine business. Two points to consider: (1) sources on the Ultramarines, including Ward, are biased in favor of the Ultramarines as commonly most sources in the GW background material are biased in favor of faction they address; (2) Ultramarines simply receive more attention as the Space Marine paradigm case. It would be the same with any other Chapter taken as the paradigm case.

 

That said, GW Background material does shine a lot of light elsewhere in the Space Marine brotherhood. A good case in point is the Horus Heresy series, which lavishes attention on the Imperial Fists -- and rightly so -- and thus far depicts Dorn and his Legion as the 'second best' (pardon the simple phrase) behind the Luna Wolves.

 

Just a few comments of moderation, I suppose.

[Marshal Rohr]

I love the idea of the Imperial Fist being the paragon of a loyalist legion. It gives their story more drama and spice.

[Arkangilos]

I prefer the idea of the Blood Angels being the paragons (when Sanguinius was still alive). But the Imperial Fists are my second choice. :D

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Only, here is the thing, if you don't like the subject, don't post, and you don't have to worry about it going south.

 

I mean seriously, what is the point in posting in something if all you plan to do is insult and bring it down? Why not just skip it? If you are going to post, why not offer a reasonable discussion rather than derail it?

 

because you put it in a public location, it becomes public question. especially when your post ends with "please discuss". if you wanted people to just post agreements with you, then no discussion was needed. but was the word "discuss" came into play, peopel were going to go both negative and positive. that is a disccuion. if you dont want that in the future, dont say discuss. say agree with me or post elsewhere.

 

define "reasonable"? because your definition and my definition may differ on that word. Now i am not condoning or codemning either sides of this latest ultra debate, both neither side is without blame here.

 

i think the core of the problem comes not from the message itself, but its delievery. i have a large family. if i came home one day and told my brothers they are going to do things my way from now on, because i make more money then they do and have a bigger car, things wouldnt go over so well. now guilliman never expressly did this. what he did do is make the reforms, and then make the other Primarchs reliant on the orginaztions under his control for supplies. its is a strong arm tactic without getting your own hands dirty. so he ordered pizza infront of a starving family, and said if you want food, agree to do things as i say. some of them thought what he wanted wasnt so bad, and signed up (the initial agreerers). others disagreed, but eventually folded when they got hungry enough (dorn). and some others just went hunting for food on their own (russ and the black templars).

 

and sadly, GW has pumped out so much "leetness" into the Ultramarines in the past that it has variable effects on people. some people are repulsed and angry, some proud of their chosen faction, etc etc etc.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

Only, here is the thing, if you don't like the subject, don't post, and you don't have to worry about it going south.

 

I mean seriously, what is the point in posting in something if all you plan to do is insult and bring it down? Why not just skip it? If you are going to post, why not offer a reasonable discussion rather than derail it?

 

because you put it in a public location, it becomes public question. especially when your post ends with "please discuss". if you wanted people to just post agreements with you, then no discussion was needed. but was the word "discuss" came into play, peopel were going to go both negative and positive. that is a disccuion. if you dont want that in the future, dont say discuss. say agree with me or post elsewhere.

 

define "reasonable"? because your definition and my definition may differ on that word. Now i am not condoning or codemning either sides of this latest ultra debate, both neither side is without blame here.

 

i think the core of the problem comes not from the message itself, but its delievery. i have a large family. if i came home one day and told my brothers they are going to do things my way from now on, because i make more money then they do and have a bigger car, things wouldnt go over so well. now guilliman never expressly did this. what he did do is make the reforms, and then make the other Primarchs reliant on the orginaztions under his control for supplies. its is a strong arm tactic without getting your own hands dirty. so he ordered pizza infront of a starving family, and said if you want food, agree to do things as i say. some of them thought what he wanted wasnt so bad, and signed up (the initial agreerers). others disagreed, but eventually folded when they got hungry enough (dorn). and some others just went hunting for food on their own (russ and the black templars).

 

and sadly, GW has pumped out so much "leetness" into the Ultramarines in the past that it has variable effects on people. some people are repulsed and angry, some proud of their chosen faction, etc etc etc.

 

WLK

 

When I say reasonable debates, I mean that people don't come in yelling, "WARD SUCKS!" Instead, they come in, say, "I don't know, I don't think that they should have led the reformations, and this is why..."

 

I want both sides of the arguements, but I want one that is relevant, does not do the typical ward sucks, provides ACTUAL PROOF (and opinions) and that does not worry about the literal Codex Authors, but instead about the lore.

 

Also, give something productive to the discussion (which ties into what I said before) and don't say something like, "This subject is doomed to die. I suspected it would be bad." That is not productive, that does not give an opinion on the original post, and that does nother to improve the thread.

[calgar101]

This is the problem any topic that Involves Ultramarines is usually going to derail into a flame war. You get those who hate what Ward has done (both Ultra and non Ultra players) and then those who flame the players for what was done to their background. Persona;;y I want Ward to be fired and his work un-done or he writes every single codex with all the silly antics and hyperbole he is famed for so then the fan :D is distributed equally between every one.

 

Just a personally feeling/observation no other chapter receives as much flask as the Ultramarines (unless it is a chapter founded using mixed gene-seed of the 2nd and 11th Legions who are all female :D)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

This is the problem any topic that Involves Ultramarines is usually going to derail into a flame war. You get those who hate what Ward has done (both Ultra and non Ultra players) and then those who flame the players for what was done to their background. Persona;;y I want Ward to be fired and his work un-done or he writes every single codex with all the silly antics and hyperbole he is famed for so then the fan :D is distributed equally between every one.

 

Just a personally feeling/observation no other chapter receives as much flask as the Ultramarines (unless it is a chapter founded using mixed gene-seed of the 2nd and 11th Legions who are all female :D)

 

according to Telly's guidelines, this is not a productive post.

 

@Telanicus: the problem with that kind of debate is that over the last 20 yrs, those that support the Ultrmarines have ample quotes to prove their point of view. those that disagree dont, as GW has the Ultras as the poster boy for so long, so all they have is opinions and brief quotes at best, which are brushed aside by the mountains provided bt the other side. this angers one side, and it cycles down from their.

you've been here since march, and are already tired of these incidents. imagine those who have been here longer, and see the same 4-5 guys go this on a regualr basis it seems. you can pretty much glance at a post and count how long it lives based on the main posters in the thread. this one is a example of one doomed to fail.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

It doesn't need full quotes. But also you could use the Horus Heresy books, BL books (or those accepted by the community), and etc.

 

I said that I was not an Ultramarine fan, and originally I think it should have been the Imperial Fists who were right (even though I am a BA fan). And I can use lore to support that. However, I thought otherwise in the end and put it up in my OP.

 

Some players think the IF should have been, adn they will post their opinions, and back it up with lore. Some people think the DA should be (I think?) and they will post their opinion and back it up with lore. There are plenty of options that does not include getting mad.

[calgar101]

Telanicus you're correct in that it should have been the Imperial Fists -well Dorn- leading the Imperium as he was the Emperors Praetorian and was in charge really. However this was a new age and many things were changing, in Nemesis at the end you get to read about Dorn realising that the Heresy will change the Imperium forever. Guilliman was the most suited Primarch to lead the reformations (and they were his brain child after all); we'd still have legions if he hadn't come up with the chapter idea and the break down of power that each faction of the Imperium held. Whether or not one idea was better we don't know as we don't have a parallel universe where the reformations didn't happen to compare it to.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legs NOOOOOO