The Legions After

[Legatus]

I am not really in favour of the notions that Guilliman somehow was not in a position to order his brothers to reform their Legions. Guilliman was a Primarch, and his brothers were Primarchs, yes. But he was a member of the High Lords at that time, and the High Lords were in the process of restructuring the entire Imperium to be able to function without the guidance of the Emperor. They established the Imperial institutions that persist to this day. And one of their greatest achievements is said to have been the reorganisation of the Imperial military, which was done almost singelhandedly by Roboute Guilliman. Guilliman did not just make up a couple of changes on a whim, because he thought that might be a neat idear. This was about the entire Imperium, and not about the Primarchs. The Primarchs are not above the needs of the Imperium, and their personal feelings about the nature of their command were not relevant. The imperial forces were restructured at that time, and the personal desires of a Primarch to keep command over an entire Legion were simply not important. Therefor I find it misplaced to blame Guilliman for having brought this upon his brothers, when this was mainly a result to changing times, and an undertaking by the High lords of Terra. Dorn, Russ and Vulkan were not resisting the idears of a brother, they were resiting political changes in the Imperium.

 

 

Edit:

Legs NOOOOOO

Huh, what? :)

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought you were gonna reply to Codicer Lucion.

 

But It doesnt matter what a few men think, they were not the emperors sons. Their opinions don't count for anything. It doesn't matter if they were in charge or not. Each Primarch was equal and should have retained sovereignty over their own legions.

 

Notice the Mechanicus stayed the same, and as such each Primarch and their legion was just as sovereign.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i do wonder if the other loyalist primarchs were allowed a seat on the High Lords of Terra? I am scanning through my copy of the 2nd ed ultramarine codex and can find no mention either way.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

I don't know if the Mechanicus stayed the same. At least it was changed from "Cult Mechanius" to "Adeptus Mechanicus". Some sources also state that after the Heresy the Cult Mechanicus and the individual Primarchs and their Legions almost divorced themselves from the Imperium. It was only the intervention of the first High Lords which prevented that from happening. I assume that neither the Mechanicus nor the Primarchs would have accepted any one single person to assume the position the Emperor previously had, so a council of the most powerful individuals was probably an acceptable solution. Especially since the newer HH background tells us that apparently the Emperor had already planned to turn the Council of Terra into the High Lords once the crusade was done. So it was no entirely a solution that came out of nowhere.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

if the primarchs were offered a seat, then i dont haven any real problem with the codex being "enforced". it was down to a vote they had a sway in, and failed to convince their brothers.

 

if they were denied a seat, and were told the codex was the structure of future of future space marines, then i can see where problems started.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

That makes more sense. Again though tge friction comes from the IA Black Templars and no where else. Before that Dorn wanted to lead his men into the Iron Cage before he split them up and Guilliman agreed.

[Gree]

Dorn, Russ and Vulkan were not resisting the idears of a brother, they were resiting political changes in the Imperium.

 

Vulkan was retconned actually in Imperial Armour 10 into being a strong Guilliman supporter.

 

I thought you were gonna reply to Codicer Lucion.

 

But It doesnt matter what a few men think, they were not the emperors sons. Their opinions don't count for anything. It doesn't matter if they were in charge or not. Each Primarch was equal and should have retained sovereignty over their own legions.

 

Notice the Mechanicus stayed the same, and as such each Primarch and their legion was just as sovereign.

 

The Mechanicus's miltiary reforms are unknown what hapepned actually. Technically speaking I don't think they are even apart of the Imperium per say.

 

but uit does not matter the Primarchs don't rule the Imperium, and the Astartes are only one part of a much larger machine. At the end of the day the Astartes serve humanity and exist due to the graces of the Mechanicus and the Adeptus Terra. IA Fists notes that humanity did not trust the Astartes after the Heresy.

 

However strategic concerns would have broken up the Legions anyway. The Astromonican effectively limited practical Imperial expansion and would have put the Imperium on a defensive role, which breaking up the Legions would have resulted anyway.

[Codicier Lucion]

This will take more than one post due to the quote limit, apologies in advance for the double post.

 

Actually the Deathwatch book notes that they are one of the most diplomatic amoung the Astartes and are good with almost everyone when it comes to compromises.

 

Yes, because the Deathwatch RPG had to work with Ward’s own tripe and try and turn it into something remotely readable. One of the few good things they did I might add is work the supposed superiority and innate greatness of the Ultramarines into the insanity system for the books.

 

Where is this stated? Ultramarine PDF are certainly highly trained and competent but when you get into talking about the Imperial Guard elite such as the Kasrkin. It's certainly mentioned nowhere in the fluff that they can defend Ultramar with'' no appearent dificulty.'' You exaggerated that.

 

No more than Ward endlessly exaggerates his fluff and calls it “accurate”. Parts of the last few posts have been sarcastic, especially when it comes to the supposed gene-coded superiority all things related to the Ultramarines have over everyone else. Also, expect some sarcasm in my answers. They’ll usually be obvious but i’ll try to continue using “” to mark out certain statements i’m mocking.

 

As for the specific quote, here it is:

*cough* Ultramar even has excess PDF regiments who are prepared to fight all over the galaxy, so there is really no need for the Ultramarines to stay there.

Edit: I would have pointed out that Ultramar is seen as one of the best defendend regions in the Imperium, but I guess that would only have drawn even more ire.

 

You are taking what he said out of context and exaggerating it.

 

What, that Ultramar’s supposedly great PDF is so fantastic that they are on par with Guard regiments at a moments notice? It certainly seems accurate to me. Though again levels of sarcasm were used here.

 

What are you talking about? The Ultramarines have fought in many of the Imperium's major wars, they have had a prescense of at least some of the Black Crusades, fought at Second Armageddon, formed half the Astartes in the Scouring, Corinthian Crusade, the Boros Crusade and they are one of the major forces protecting the Eastern Fringe, a placed noted as being the lawless frontier of the Imperium essentially.

 

Yes, half a dozen barely known incidents which were either when they only had a small token force there, were subservient to the Blood Angels, at a time when they were the only legion with enough strength to be the main force behind them, or made up half known events which are barely established upon but are supposedly “as great as the wars on Armageddon or other conflicts.” Most of those I had no problem with previously, but considering Ward is now in charge of writing the Ultramarines I see such events in a very different light. Not to mention a good source to point out that the Ultramarine’s claims to fame seem to either be false or that “the greatest of all chapters” seems to endlessly leave massive battles to supposedly lesser forces of space marines.

 

Incorrect, the Third, Sevent and Eight Companies were not present at Ultramar during Honsou's invsion, but were instead being recalled. Other companies were being recalled when news of the invasion came (Like Uriel's)

 

Yes, who as I recall was dealing with an incursion so minor that the Tau had to perform a sneak attack to try and take the world for themselves and ran at the thought of losing it permanently. Hardly a task worthy of “the greatest of all space marines”. We’re also never given an exact number of chapters which were returning so for all we know most were already there.

 

Their are a Ultramarines and they have the Eastern Fringe to protect. One cannot reasonable expect them to be everywhere.

 

Why not, the fifth edition apparently describes them as being so powerful and so great it would only take one hundred of them to totally defeat the Eye of Terror.

 

Where exactly is the Codex Astartes meant to be unbeatable?

 

According to Legatus and The Emperor’s Champion, each part gives any force who uses it absolute supremacy on the battlefield with no drawbacks. Ward seem to think the same thing. It certainly sounds unbeatable to me.

 

They did? Where exactly was this stated?

 

Several codexes, the Nimbosa Crusade. “Aberrants” known as the Black Templers along with the Imperial Fists stormed orbital defence stations and took them intact so their guns could be turned upon other Tau forces. The Ultramanrines then did the easy task of ambushing the Tau garrison and taking down the anti-air guns. There will probably be an “update” later on detailing how this was entirely thanks to the Ultramarines that there was any Imperial victory and fools like the Black Templars only caused them problems.

 

Where was this? I recall the head of the First Founding chapter asking for aid and it being given to him. Astartes coming together for a joint Crusade is certainly not unknown. There was nothing in the text about the Astartes from other Chapters begging or throwing themselves at their feet.

 

Considering they seemed to instantly obey their commands without question, answered the crusade en mass and are now apparently totally subservient to the Ultramarines:

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch. – fifth edition Space Marine Ultramarines codex.

 

Last I looked the White Scars had considerably more bike squadrons and different tactics from codex chapters, and none of those were lusting after Guilliman, hating their own primarchs because of their “divergent heritage”. The fifth edition changed a lot of things for the worse. Not to mention that the author of that fluff openly stated that “all chapters want to be them and recognise Calgar as their spiritual liege.”

 

Good question. what part? The text says nothing about the victory being attributed to the Ultramarines or sole credit being given to them.

 

Mainly the third paragraph where it is noted it was Sicarius who led the entire damn thing and it was only his tactics which allowed for any victory. There is also the small problem that only the Ultramarines are listed as fighting most of the battles, save for a small bit where Ward seems to have begrudgingly listed the other chapters fighting. It then goes on to all but blame the other chapters for leaving to deal with their own problems and not following the Ultramarines on an offensive into Tau space and ends praising Sicarius.

 

That certainly sounds like only the Ultramarines were given sole credit for any victory.

 

Again, where is this?

 

The above story just for starters, the Zeist Campaign.

 

The Codex says nothing about Calgar ordering them to perform hit and run attacks on the Tyranid Hive fleet. It says Calgar ended the conflict, but nothing more. And it says nothing about the Knights of the Raven being Corax's sucessors, which is another one of your assumptions.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Raven

They are alleged to be a Raven Guard successor in the Imperial Armour Volume Eight and the following is listed for that brief disagreement between them and the Aurora Chapter:

At one point, they come to blows with brother marines from the Aurora Chapter and the Lord of Macragge, Marneus Calgar of theUltramarines Chapter had to step in to end the conflict. As penance, the Knights of the Raven Chapter is currently engaged in an arduous deployment of hit-and-run attacks against Hive Fleet Kraken – Fifth Edition Space Marine Codex page 28. It’s there.

 

No they did't. The Ultramarines were of the chapters that attempted to stem the tide of the World engine na dit says nothing about them stealing the glory at all. Actually it's the opposite with the Astral Knights being honoured

 

Thus trying to show the Ultramarines as being humble and noble and allowing Ward the opportunity to again try to cram in more crap relating to how “great” they are. When fluff seems to give up telling the tale of one chapter in favour of stating “the Ultramarines were there and they did...” then they have stolen a great deal of the glory.

 

Incorrect. It says nothing about the Ultramarines sitting back and doing nothing or having the victory partially attributed to them. As for the eneding they were noted to having retrived the wreckage and paid tribute to the Astral Knights.

 

Something which is contradicted by this site’s “ultramarines timeline” listing the battle as being one of their victories and one of the battles they participated in, despite doing next to nothing. And yes, they did nothing besides possibly finish an enemy another chapter had died crippling for them and “honouring” the Astral Swords so Ward could write more about the Ultramarines.

 

Incorrect, they've always been one of the most noted and famous chapters in the Imperium. They guard the Eastern Fringe, etc, etc. It's ridiculous to tyhink a First Founding chapter would not have faced worthy foes in ten millenia of warfare, especailly on the Eastern Fringe of all places.

 

Unless of course they command their successor and the subservient lesser chapters who now adore them to do the hard work for them. I might have agreed with you last edition, but these Ultramarines are very different from the ones which were about then.

[augustmanifesto]

Telanicus you're correct in that it should have been the Imperial Fists -well Dorn- leading the Imperium as he was the Emperors Praetorian and was in charge really. However this was a new age and many things were changing, in Nemesis at the end you get to read about Dorn realising that the Heresy will change the Imperium forever. Guilliman was the most suited Primarch to lead the reformations (and they were his brain child after all); we'd still have legions if he hadn't come up with the chapter idea and the break down of power that each faction of the Imperium held. Whether or not one idea was better we don't know as we don't have a parallel universe where the reformations didn't happen to compare it to.

 

Well, I think there is a strong case for the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn has having been in a privileged position to re-organize the Imperium after the Heresy if and only if we are thinking of them prior to the death of the Emperor. The Horus Heresy series notes that the Imperial Fists had accumulated the most battle honors behind only the Luna Wolves, Dorn was a close second for the Warmaster position, Dorn was the commander of the Imperium's military during the Heresy, etc.

 

However -- and this point is crucial to understanding the character development of Dorn and his Legion -- the grief produced by the death of the Emperor brought Dorn and the Imperial Fists under the firm control of vengeance, rather than their finer faculties and capabilities as warriors, strategists, tacticians, etc. This lead all the way up to the Iron Cage and the Codex Astartes crisis, at which point Dorn began to return to his more disciplined self.

 

Thus, after the Death of the Emperor, I think Dorn and the Imperial Fists were not in a position to assume the responsibilities that Guilliman undertook. Also, when you say "should have," I think it is good to keep in mind that the Codex Astartes and the reorganization was not a task delegated to Guilliman or something that he was simply tasked with by some great power. No, it was the result of his initiative and broader planning process after the conclusion of the Horus Heresy -- a process than Dorn and the Imperial Fists would have been in a position to influence heavily had they participated, which they did not.

 

As an Imperial Fists fan, I enjoy this depth to Dorn's character and that of his Legion.

 

sorry for the rushed response, no time to edit :devil:

[Codicier Lucion]

What exactly are you talking about? I rarely recall the Ultramarines ''having their hands to be held.'' and all Astartes chapters usually operate with the support of Imperial Guard and Navy, it's how the Imperium works. The Astartes don't do heavy attrition.

 

No, but most manage to do their jobs without almost constantly joining up with other chapters to fight their battles. Something which seems to be endlessly noted throughout their history. I can also think of a few chapters who did more than stand back and let the Imperial Guard die and do the hard work for them as you seem to suggest.

 

If by helping you mean support then, yes, but one could says the same of almost any other Chapter. Astartes usually form one part of s larger war machine in the Imperium's wars.

 

True, but no other chapter is claiming to be “the greatest of all space marines” and looks down upon all others in the Imperium. Being “the best” you’d expect them to be able to win battles without continuous help.

 

Do you mind posting quotes or actual context for these claims?

 

Certainly:

698.M41: Corinthian Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a seven year multi-Chapter Crusade against the Ork empire of Charadon. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

 

807.M41: Two Ultramarines Companies reclaim the rebellious oceanic cities on Jhanna. The rebels had Chaos Space Marine allies. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

 

861.M41: The Ultramarines defeat a "powerful coalition of Eldar Raiders". (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

 

944.M41: Balur Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a larger Crusade effort against worlds on the eastern fringe. The opposition includes worlds held by the Orks. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

 

 

Are you familar with Astartes warfare? Surgical strikes and percision assualts are something all Astartes do. they can force a planet to surrender but they can't really hold a planet or engage in heavy seige warfare without huge losses.

 

Again, would you mind providing examples and quotes in context for proper comparison?

 

That statement about siege warfare doesn’t seem to have stopped the Imperial Fists and a few other chapters I know of. There are certainly a good deal of chapters who face their enemy in open battle, several first founding chapters come to mind like the Salamanders, Iron Hands and again the Imperial Fists.

 

We also have records and statements of Astartes chapters wrecking entire worlds and being just short of an exterminates in their overall effect: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2775321

Honoured masters, my recent investigations on Kethra uncovered nothing less than a worldwide conspiracy to secede from the Emperor’s Light and the guiding rule of the Imperium. The situation was dire as the conspiracy originated from the Governor himself, and was supported by his most prominent ministers and officers. Under the circumstances my only option was to transmit a general appeal for assistance and wait for help to arrive. My petition was soon answered by Space Marines of the White Panthers Chapter. Upon their arrival in the Kethra system, I advised them of the situation and outlined my plan to eliminate the Governor and his advisory council, also targeting the high-ranking officers of the defence force. They thanked me for bringing this heresy to their attention and proceeded to implement their own plan.

The first attack destroyed Kethra’s two orbiting weapon stations, with a crew of nearly 15,000 men. Having established orbital supremacy, they despatched Thunderhawks and drop pods to various points on the planet’s surface, calculated to provoke an attack by the Kethran defence forces. Despite their vast advantage in numbers the attacking forces were annihilated piecemeal by the White Panthers over a period of a few days and nights of incessant conflict. I found it regrettable that the common soldiers bore the weight of the Space Marine’s fury, as they were merely men following orders and their chain of command as they had been so trained to do; it was their leaders who required justice. But to a Space Marine, one of the Emperor’s finest, there is never an excuse for such heresy, each man must owe loyalty to the Emperor before any other.

Having shattered the defence force, the White Panthers launched an all-out assault on the Governor’s Palace. Surrounded, the Governor’s men had little choice but to grimly fight to the death. A few managed to flee, but no one else survived. The Governor and his consulate were summarily executed as traitors, and demolition charges were used to destroy the planet’s armoury. Having deemed their missions achieved, with Kethra’s military power eliminated, the White Panthers returned to their battle barges and left without further word.

Whether Kethra will be sufficiently recovered to provide its tithe within the next year is a matter for the Administratum. The point I wish to raise is that the proper application of force could have resolved the entire affair without destroying the military strength of Kethra and leaving the world vulnerable to alien attack. I regret that the Officio Assassinorum did not respond to my request earlier when their Adepts could have easily ended the whole affair quickly and quietly.

While the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, as ever, showed creditable skill, determination, and unswerving loyalty to the Emperor, unleashing them against any Imperial world is to use an ultimate force exceeded only by that of Exterminatus. It is not as if this incident is without precedent, indeed on many occasions Space Marines have pursued their own campaigns without reference or remit to the authority of the Adeptus Terra. To think that there are a thousand Chapters, each a thousand-strong, of these warriors poised to strike anywhere in the galaxy fills me with reassurance and dread in equal measure.

I remain, as ever, your most faithful and obedient servant,

- Inquisitor Bastalek Grim

 

A direct attack didn’t seem to slow them down. Though I do agree I know that astartes are usually utilised as shock troops striking singular locations and “removing the head from the snake” as it were. But I would assume a chapter which is called “the best” like the Ultramarines would at least be able to equal the skill of so many “lesser” forces like other space marine chapters in any form of warfare. It’s apparently what the codex is there for after all.

 

What are you talking about? The Honor Company had been around since early 4th edition and the Scouring fluff since Second Edition.

 

If you say so. The Honour Guard were there but naturally they got considerably more invincible and with the fluff suggesting they have more power once Ward god his greasy hands on the codex. Can you cite the point where it suggests they were at every Black Crusade in the fourth edition codex?

 

You do realize that the Ultramarines are literally on the other side of the galaxy from Cadia and have the Eastern Fringe to protect amoung a multitude of responsitibities? And that others chapters usually don't need to do that because they are closer to Cadia and enjoy advantages that the Ultramarines don't?

 

And? If they’re “the best” I’d assume they’d naturally have the time to spare enough men for them to once again single handily save the entire Imperium with an “Honour Company”. If they supposedly are infinitely superior to all other chapters I would guess that they might just want to focus upon the larger and more pressing battles than deal with a minor succession in some remote and insignificant part of the galaxy. At least saving it to a later date.

 

First of all Ward wrote the Blood Angels Codex, McNeill wrote Chapter's Due, and M'kar breaking out of his prison was published in Iron Warrior, which was written before the BA Codex. (I assume that's what you are talking about.)

 

More the comment upon M’Kar being in an entirely different place in the galaxy and the small continuity conflicts which all seem to lead up to Chapter’s Due having never taken place. I don’t think he liked the fact the book showed them to just be extremely good rather than utterly invincible and capable of single handily crushing the entire Chaos invasion overnight.

 

No, that is your opinion.

 

So in other words when something that disagrees with your personal opinions comes up we arn't allowed to use it when debating you. That's nice to know. :devil:

 

For the same reasons certain Blood Ravens players regard their novels as never having happened. They were produced by an author with apparently so little knowledge or basic grasp of the universe i’d hope for any self respecting Ultramarines player to consider them non-canon. Otherwise we end up with things like the Ultramarines chief librarian being more powerful than the Emperor himself and Draigod. Also Necrons apparently being allies of the Blood Angels.

 

None of which could have happened in the Warhammer I know of.

[Legatus]

if the primarchs were offered a seat, then i dont haven any real problem with the codex being "enforced". it was down to a vote they had a sway in, and failed to convince their brothers.

 

if they were denied a seat, and were told the codex was the structure of future of future space marines, then i can see where problems started.

I don't think they all got a seat, since that would have given the Legionnes/Adeptus Astartes a big majority on the council. I assume only one Primarch, as representative of the Astartes, would have had a seat at any one time. However, some sources do point out that the details of the new regulations for Space Marines were discussed. Specifically the BFG rulebook mentions that when the allowed fleet dispositions were discussed, some radical proposals were that Marines should have no own ships whatsoever, but Corax vehemently argued that Space Marines should have at least their own transport vessels.

The Index Astartes Imperial Fists also points out that Dorn had been absent from the highest councils until he was summoned to Terra for the official presentation of the Codex Astartes, since Dorn had focused all his attention on hunting down the traitors and had let himself be "blinded to changing times".

[Arkangilos]

if the primarchs were offered a seat, then i dont haven any real problem with the codex being "enforced". it was down to a vote they had a sway in, and failed to convince their brothers.

 

if they were denied a seat, and were told the codex was the structure of future of future space marines, then i can see where problems started.

I don't think they all got a seat, since that would have given the Legionnes/Adeptus Astartes a big majority on the council. I assume only one Primarch, as representative of the Astartes, would have had a seat at any one time. However, some sources do point out that the details of the new regulations for Space Marines were discussed. Specifically the BFG rulebook mentions that when the allowed fleet dispositions were discussed, some radical proposals were that Marines should have no own ships whatsoever, but Corax vehemently argued that Space Marines should have at least their own transport vessels.

The Index Astartes Imperial Fists also points out that Dorn had been absent from the highest councils until he was summoned to Terra for the official presentation of the Codex Astartes, since Dorn had focused all his attention on hunting down the traitors and had let himself be "blinded to changing times".

 

So do you think they decided which primarch would be the representative? Like had their own council?

[Arkangilos]

Telanicus you're correct in that it should have been the Imperial Fists -well Dorn- leading the Imperium as he was the Emperors Praetorian and was in charge really. However this was a new age and many things were changing, in Nemesis at the end you get to read about Dorn realising that the Heresy will change the Imperium forever. Guilliman was the most suited Primarch to lead the reformations (and they were his brain child after all); we'd still have legions if he hadn't come up with the chapter idea and the break down of power that each faction of the Imperium held. Whether or not one idea was better we don't know as we don't have a parallel universe where the reformations didn't happen to compare it to.

 

Well, I think there is a strong case for the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn has having been in a privileged position to re-organize the Imperium after the Heresy if and only if we are thinking of them prior to the death of the Emperor. The Horus Heresy series notes that the Imperial Fists had accumulated the most battle honors behind only the Luna Wolves, Dorn was a close second for the Warmaster position, Dorn was the commander of the Imperium's military during the Heresy, etc.

 

However -- and this point is crucial to understanding the character development of Dorn and his Legion -- the grief produced by the death of the Emperor brought Dorn and the Imperial Fists under the firm control of vengeance, rather than their finer faculties and capabilities as warriors, strategists, tacticians, etc. This lead all the way up to the Iron Cage and the Codex Astartes crisis, at which point Dorn began to return to his more disciplined self.

 

Thus, after the Death of the Emperor, I think Dorn and the Imperial Fists were not in a position to assume the responsibilities that Guilliman undertook. Also, when you say "should have," I think it is good to keep in mind that the Codex Astartes and the reorganization was not a task delegated to Guilliman or something that he was simply tasked with by some great power. No, it was the result of his initiative and broader planning process after the conclusion of the Horus Heresy -- a process than Dorn and the Imperial Fists would have been in a position to influence heavily had they participated, which they did not.

 

As an Imperial Fists fan, I enjoy this depth to Dorn's character and that of his Legion.

 

sorry for the rushed response, no time to edit :)

 

 

I also agree with this (my first topic post :evil:). You have some good points.

[Marshal Rohr]

I doubt there was a vote to let Guilliman be that representative.

 

You need to acknowledge that Guilliman was neither unpopular or popular amongst the Primarchs, he simply was. None of the loyalist Primarchs were close pre heresy and during the Scouring. Dorn and Guilliman only came round after Dorn got it together.

 

Guilliman's reforms were political maneuvering no matter their validity.

 

Gree, I don't agree that the Primarchs were there to serve humanity and their mortal rulers. They are each a demigod more powerful than anything else. The wants and wishes of mortal men are inconsequential. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Codicier Lucion]

Behind the gross misuse of exaggeration of Ward there does lie truth to his writings, a fair chunk of the background in there about the Ultramarines is copied and pasted straight from the 2nd Ed Ultramarine codex so has been around for a long time.

 

Then the truth he has is only that of a much older, simpler, codex and he's trying to regress the better fluff of the game. Look, I liked the Second Edition, I really did, but it was a different time and it's something the game should have moved on from by now. With any media things progress naturally, the longer a story goes on for and the more time is spent fleshing it out the better it becomes.

When someone suddenly shifts it back to a much older age and starts to implement ideas which would have been much more acceptable at the time it tends to result in mistakes

these.

 

Falling back on "The Ultramarines are awesome and ultimately 100% superior to everything else!" was a major misstep. The fact he did not learn from his mistake meant Ward's future work has suffered horribly and gotten progressively worse.

 

The problem i'm having is that while in other media fandoms reacted badly to such mistakes, in Warhammer the Ultramarines fans I see seem to think that Ward has the right idea as he drags the game into the ground. There are not that many I see offline who will openly admit "Yeah, he's really screwed over a great chapter." Or even consider thinking such a thing. The inclusion of old ideas and regressing the game back to old concepts is not something anyone should be praising him on.

 

I can reference several incidents in other Marine codex's that just seem way over the top (coincidence that they too are Ward codex's?) but no matter what Ultramarines will always get flak.

 

I don't know. I've seen a lot of comments against the new Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Blood Angels. Though the latter examples much more than the former and more due to gameplay reasons than being reduced to utterly ridiculous fluff.

[Arkangilos]

I doubt there was a vote to let Guilliman be that representative.

 

You need to acknowledge that Guilliman was neither unpopular or popular amongst the Primarchs, he simply was. None of the loyalist Primarchs were close pre heresy and during the Scouring. Dorn and Guilliman only came round after Dorn got it together.

 

Guilliman's reforms were political maneuvering no matter their validity.

 

Gree, I don't agree that the Primarchs were there to serve humanity and their mortal rulers. They are each a demigod more powerful than anything else. The wants and wishes of mortal men are inconsequential. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

So how do you think he got his possition on the HLoT?

[Legatus]

I think only Dorn and Guilliman were really options for a position among the High Lords. Jonson may have been capable enough, but he was not playing well with others. The other Primarchs were not described as much as statesmen and political figures.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Eh, to be honest, I still loved the conversation. Some of the posters still tried contributing to the OP despite those who did nothing but insult ward when it was not necessary.

 

+Edit+

 

And you notice, its the same person showing up in all of these threads, throwing the exact same insults, bashing the exact same person (Ward) who causes all of these discussions to go off topic, and cause all of them to yell.

 

It wasn't the post that caused it, it was the same person of which I speak that derailed things.

 

it does take 2 to tango. the main people in this latest waste of thread are the same people in every single for/against Ultra/Ward "debate".

 

this is becoming a pretty standard series of posts here on B&C, regardless of what subforum you pop into. i have now seen this in 3 different subforums. both sides arent entirely wrong, but neither sides are entirely right. its another case of GW not doing their jobs and the fans sqaubbling over the scraps.

 

WLK

 

 

This is the problem any topic that Involves Ultramarines is usually going to derail into a flame war. You get those who hate what Ward has done (both Ultra and non Ultra players) and then those who flame the players for what was done to their background. Persona;;y I want Ward to be fired and his work un-done or he writes every single codex with all the silly antics and hyperbole he is famed for so then the fan :devil: is distributed equally between every one.

 

Just a personally feeling/observation no other chapter receives as much flask as the Ultramarines (unless it is a chapter founded using mixed gene-seed of the 2nd and 11th Legions who are all female :))

 

according to Telly's guidelines, this is not a productive post.

 

@Telanicus: the problem with that kind of debate is that over the last 20 yrs, those that support the Ultrmarines have ample quotes to prove their point of view. those that disagree dont, as GW has the Ultras as the poster boy for so long, so all they have is opinions and brief quotes at best, which are brushed aside by the mountains provided bt the other side. this angers one side, and it cycles down from their.

you've been here since march, and are already tired of these incidents. imagine those who have been here longer, and see the same 4-5 guys go this on a regualr basis it seems. you can pretty much glance at a post and count how long it lives based on the main posters in the thread. this one is a example of one doomed to fail.

 

WLK

 

I like you.

[Arkangilos]

What about those Primarchs that were loyal but died, what are your ideas on how well they would have played out on it?

[Gree]

What exactly are you talking about? I rarely recall the Ultramarines ''having their hands to be held.'' and all Astartes chapters usually operate with the support of Imperial Guard and Navy, it's how the Imperium works. The Astartes don't do heavy attrition.

 

No, but most manage to do their jobs without almost constantly joining up with other chapters to fight their battles.

 

You mean like the Ultramarines?

 

No, but most manage to do their jobs without almost constantly joining up with other chapters to fight their battles. Something which seems to be endlessly noted throughout their history.

 

It's hardly endlessly noted in their history like you claim.

 

[i can also think of a few chapters who did more than stand back and let the Imperial Guard die and do the hard work for them as you seem to suggest.

 

I never suggested or implied that. You do grasp the concept of working alongside the Guard do you?

 

True, but no other chapter is claiming to be “the greatest of all space marines” and looks down upon all others in the Imperium. Being “the best” you’d expect them to be able to win battles without continuous help.

 

first of all were do the Ultramarines claim to be the best?

 

Second of all you have the Black Templars claiming all other chapters are lesser in Helsreach and oyu have them accepting help from the Salamander,s the Mechanicus and the Guard. So by your own logic you fail.

 

That statement about siege warfare doesn’t seem to have stopped the Imperial Fists and a few other chapters I know of.

 

The Fists are specifically noted to be stubborn and hold their ground when retreat would be advisable. Although the seige specialty is something left over from their Legion days.

 

There are certainly a good deal of chapters who face their enemy in open battle, several first founding chapters come to mind like the Salamanders, Iron Hands and again the Imperial Fists.

 

One can meet the enemy in open battle with a surgical strike. However I would note that a chapter taking on the entire enemy force at once is not something usually done.

 

We also have records and statements of Astartes chapters wrecking entire worlds and being just short of an exterminates in their overall effect: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2775321

Honoured masters, my recent investigations on Kethra uncovered nothing less than a worldwide conspiracy to secede from the Emperor’s Light and the guiding rule of the Imperium. The situation was dire as the conspiracy originated from the Governor himself, and was supported by his most prominent ministers and officers. Under the circumstances my only option was to transmit a general appeal for assistance and wait for help to arrive. My petition was soon answered by Space Marines of the White Panthers Chapter. Upon their arrival in the Kethra system, I advised them of the situation and outlined my plan to eliminate the Governor and his advisory council, also targeting the high-ranking officers of the defence force. They thanked me for bringing this heresy to their attention and proceeded to implement their own plan.

The first attack destroyed Kethra’s two orbiting weapon stations, with a crew of nearly 15,000 men. Having established orbital supremacy, they despatched Thunderhawks and drop pods to various points on the planet’s surface, calculated to provoke an attack by the Kethran defence forces. Despite their vast advantage in numbers the attacking forces were annihilated piecemeal by the White Panthers over a period of a few days and nights of incessant conflict. I found it regrettable that the common soldiers bore the weight of the Space Marine’s fury, as they were merely men following orders and their chain of command as they had been so trained to do; it was their leaders who required justice. But to a Space Marine, one of the Emperor’s finest, there is never an excuse for such heresy, each man must owe loyalty to the Emperor before any other.

Having shattered the defence force, the White Panthers launched an all-out assault on the Governor’s Palace. Surrounded, the Governor’s men had little choice but to grimly fight to the death. A few managed to flee, but no one else survived. The Governor and his consulate were summarily executed as traitors, and demolition charges were used to destroy the planet’s armoury. Having deemed their missions achieved, with Kethra’s military power eliminated, the White Panthers returned to their battle barges and left without further word.

Whether Kethra will be sufficiently recovered to provide its tithe within the next year is a matter for the Administratum. The point I wish to raise is that the proper application of force could have resolved the entire affair without destroying the military strength of Kethra and leaving the world vulnerable to alien attack. I regret that the Officio Assassinorum did not respond to my request earlier when their Adepts could have easily ended the whole affair quickly and quietly.

While the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes, as ever, showed creditable skill, determination, and unswerving loyalty to the Emperor, unleashing them against any Imperial world is to use an ultimate force exceeded only by that of Exterminatus. It is not as if this incident is without precedent, indeed on many occasions Space Marines have pursued their own campaigns without reference or remit to the authority of the Adeptus Terra. To think that there are a thousand Chapters, each a thousand-strong, of these warriors poised to strike anywhere in the galaxy fills me with reassurance and dread in equal measure.

I remain, as ever, your most faithful and obedient servant,

- Inquisitor Bastalek Grim

 

Thank you for proving my point and giving me more evidence. If anything you have proven my point further. Note how they took apart the enemy forces first peicemental and then launched an all-out assualt after the main army had been broken.

 

A direct attack didn’t seem to slow them down. Though I do agree I know that astartes are usually utilised as shock troops striking singular locations and “removing the head from the snake” as it were. But I would assume a chapter which is called “the best” like the Ultramarines would at least be able to equal the skill of so many “lesser” forces like other space marine chapters in any form of warfare. It’s apparently what the codex is there for after all.

 

Incorrect. the Codex Astartes advocates balance in all forms of warfare. The Ultramairnes would be proficent in all forms of warfare (seige, fast, attack, raiding, etc, etc) but one cannot expect them to be superior to say the White Scars at their chosen form of warfare.

 

If you say so. The Honour Guard were there but naturally they got considerably more invincible and with the fluff suggesting they have more power once Ward god his greasy hands on the codex.

 

What are you talking about? The Honor Company is't even mentioned in the 5th edition Codex. You do realize I'm talking about the Honor Company at the Eye of Terror and not the Honor Guard?

 

Can you cite the point where it suggests they were at every Black Crusade in the fourth edition codex?

 

I can cite an implication from the Index Astartes article yes.

 

IA-Eye of the Storm

 

For the last ten thousand years this guard has maintained a presence at the Cadian Gate, standing firm alongside the other chapters stationed there to challenge any Black Crusade that threatens Cadia's defences. At the outset of the 13th Black Crusade, the force is comprised almost entirely of Ultramarines squads, alongside which stand a number of detachments from the chapter's successors. The honour guard has already seen action in a number of engagements, notably the Defence of Narsine and the Sarlax Reprisals, lending the legendary courage and honour of the Ultramarines and their kin to the defence of the Cadia Gate.

 

Detailign the Ultramarines Honor Company.

 

And? If they’re “the best” I’d assume they’d naturally have the time to spare enough men for them to once again single handily save the entire Imperium with an “Honour Company”.

 

One's elite status does not change the fact that their are only a thousand of them in the galaxyand the Eastern Fringe, let alone the 40k galaxy.

 

And nowhere is it suggested in the codices or Index Astartes articles that the Honor Company could save the entire Imperium. The Honor Company is ntoed to have performed very well in the 13th Black Crusade, destroying the planet killer, but it hardly saved the Imperium single-handedly. You are exaggerating their role in the fluff (Something I've noticed you doing alot of, exaggerating.)

 

If they supposedly are infinitely superior to all other chapters I would guess that they might just want to focus upon the larger and more pressing battles than deal with a minor succession in some remote and insignificant part of the galaxy. At least saving it to a later date.

 

You do realize that chapters in general protect the area of space around their homeworld? It's easier and quicker to respodn to crisis around their homeworld. Warp travel takes a long time and only rarely do chapters travel to the other side of the Imperium unless absolutely needed.

 

And the Ultramarines, while exemplars of the Astartes, are hardly infinitely superior to other Astartes. They are in the end just a chapter of Astartes. A Highly influential First Founding Brotherhood of brave warriors but just a chapter all the same. The Eastern Fringe is full xenos, heretics and other monsters waiting to destroy humanity and they stand in that frontier doing their part to protect the Imperium. They are no more greater than the Space Wolves or Ssalamanders in their efforts.

 

More the comment upon M’Kar being in an entirely different place in the galaxy and the small continuity conflicts which all seem to lead up to Chapter’s Due having never taken place. I don’t think he liked the fact the book showed them to just be extremely good rather than utterly invincible and capable of single handily crushing the entire Chaos invasion overnight.

 

You do realize that Irion Warrior was written before the Blood Angels Codex and that most Black Library authors and the studio don't in general talk right?

 

For the same reasons certain Blood Ravens players regard their novels as never having happened. They were produced by an author with apparently so little knowledge or basic grasp of the universe i’d hope for any self respecting Ultramarines player to consider them non-canon. Otherwise we end up with things like the Ultramarines chief librarian being more powerful than the Emperor himself and Draigod. Also Necrons apparently being allies of the Blood Angels.

 

None of which could have happened in the Warhammer I know of.

 

A Black Library novel is one thing, but when a Codex is directly produced by Games Workshop and directly approved by them it's something different.

 

I dislike the Grey Knights fluff, I think it's stupid, but I do take it as canon for debates if I have no other choice or if it is not heavily contridicted.

 

The rest of my reubttal is on the next page.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would theorize the mortal High Lords put Guilliman as the representative because he was the only one more concerned with rebuilding than breaking heads. He spends the 7 years of the Heresy and 7 more years of the Scouring finishing codex doctrine and when the time comes to implement it, his brothers tell him to screw off.

 

 

Though RoE gives us a hint Guilliman may have been planning the reforms for some time. The problem for me is, as seen in RoE, he took it upon himself to build Imperium Secundus. He had no right to do that IMO

[Arkangilos]

I would theorize the mortal High Lords put Guilliman as the representative because he was the only one more concerned with rebuilding than breaking heads. He spends the 7 years of the Heresy and 7 more years of the Scouring finishing codex doctrine and when the time comes to implement it, his brothers tell him to screw off.

 

 

Though RoE gives us a hint Guilliman may have been planning the reforms for some time. The problem for me is, as seen in RoE, he took it upon himself to build Imperium Secundus. He had no right to do that IMO

 

That makes sense. However, I might disagree on the "having the right' to do it part. And I don't think he was too set on everything, I mean, he did allow the Black Templars to be larger, didnt' he?

[calgar101]

Lucion what are you on about? Using one of you rants as an example there are countless instances of Astartes working with Guard or other Astartes, are you going to invalidate the Space Wolves victory on Armageddon during the 1st invasion because they called in the Grey Knights and because they worked alongside the local PDF? What about the 2nd and 3rd wars for Armageddon and numerous chapters working alongside one another?

 

Regarding the High Lord situation we don't know enough about it really but we could make some logical assumptions based on evidence of events and characters. Out of the remaining loyal Primarchs Guilliman is the only one with the experience and mind set to be on a council of sorts; except Dorn but he is too grief stricken. Guilliman seems the obvious choice and he could have been chosen by the other Lords or was simply the de facto Primarch/Astartes representative.

 

Marshall I don't understand your point on the political manoeuvring comment, yes he became the Lord Commander of the Imperium (a bit of confusion there as it states he was the only person to ever command all of the Imperiums armed forces; what about the Emperor or Horus? I digress) but as I understand it he relinquished his role as soon as the reformations were complete.

 

Edit in response to Marshall - Why couldn't Guilliman look to rebuild the Imperium? Either way it would need rebuilding after the Heresy, the Emperor alive or not. As we've read about the Primarchs role is protect the Imperium not the Emperor; to me Guilliman swallowed hard and stuck to his duty. Sacrificing the few to save the many perhaps?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

What about those Primarchs that were loyal but died, what are your ideas on how well they would have played out on it?

 

Ferrus Manus was too blunt of a primarch to be a politician of any kind. thing of mechanically enhaunced roid raging pit bull on pcp. also a acase of very dead

Vulkan: i think he maky have done the job, but i dont think he would have been the best at the job.

Dorn: too far gone into his grief and rage to handle politics.

Khan: i think he would have done well, by what we have seen. maybe a little excessive, but this is the imperium we are talking about.

Corax: i think he would have disdained the burdens of running a galatic empire, too simular to the callous tyrants of his youth.

Russ: Before PB and ATS i woudl have said no in a heart beat, but now i wonder.i dont think he would have been the best suited for the role though.

Guilliman: a good, solid choice. he would be my 2nd choice to be honest.

The Lion: a poor choice. he has the killing people part down well enough, but it utterly unable to read people. this flaw would make him poorly suited to politics.another case of being dead though.

Sanguinius: i think he would be the best bet, as i have said before. whatever lurks deep in his soul kinda worries me in the long run, but i think he has the combination to lead the Space Marines into the future. sadly, very dead.

 

@Willie: its always nice to be appreciated.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

Political maneuvering as in when everyone told him off about the codex he likely wouldn't have taken it well. Guilliman is a good example of a guy who's got the right idea but needs to twist a few arms and break a few paradigms to make hardliners change with the times.