The Legions After

[calgar101]

Also WLK as well as perhaps not being best suited Corax and Vulkan had to rebuild their legions never mind the Imperium.

 

i see what you mean now Marshall.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Also WLK as well as perhaps not being best suited Corax and Vulkan had to rebuild their legions never mind the Imperium.

 

i see what you mean now Marshall.

 

well, i was looking directly at them and not the state of their legions, but you raise a good point.

 

WLK

[Marshal Rohr]

Personally I prefer legions. I am a firm believer in centralized command. Guilliman gave that to the guard and navy, but not the space marines. Their autonomy works against them, because as independent factions there is a greater chance they might miss a situation where they could've lent a hand.

 

Telanicus no one knows why the Templars are so big or didn't adopt the codex. The Black Templars IA suffers from several instances of young DIYer syndrome and lack of explanation.

[calgar101]

I too like the legions but legions or not you still need to cover the Imperium and if you have say your legion of 80,000 Imperial Fists in one place that leaves other vast area's empty. It would have to work like the expedition fleets of the Great Crusade or some version of it. However having chapters is a precaution in the event of corruption and we have a limit on the size of chapters but I've never read that there is a limit to how many chapters there can be just that currently there is roughly 1000 of them.

[Arkangilos]

Personally I prefer legions. I am a firm believer in centralized command. Guilliman gave that to the guard and navy, but not the space marines. Their autonomy works against them, because as independent factions there is a greater chance they might miss a situation where they could've lent a hand.

 

Telanicus no one knows why the Templars are so big or didn't adopt the codex. The Black Templars IA suffers from several instances of young DIYer syndrome and lack of explanation.

 

Well then, I guess that means you can say what you want to say about it :) (They knew better, and were allowed?)

[Gaius Atticus]

I too like the legions but legions or not you still need to cover the Imperium and if you have say your legion of 80,000 Imperial Fists in one place that leaves other vast area's empty. It would have to work like the expedition fleets of the Great Crusade or some version of it. However having chapters is a precaution in the event of corruption and we have a limit on the size of chapters but I've never read that there is a limit to how many chapters there can be just that currently there is roughly 1000 of them.

I think the Codex Astartes makes it easy for companies from different Chapters to easily merge together as a temporary fighting force. Battle Chapters already have everything they need to hold their own. Reserve Chapters have to ability to provide specialist combat, or extra men to bulk out the forces.

[Gree]

Alright here's the part that I missed.

 

Yes, because the Deathwatch RPG had to work with Ward’s own tripe and try and turn it into something remotely readable. One of the few good things they did I might add is work the supposed superiority and innate greatness of the Ultramarines into the insanity system for the books.

 

No, they've always been like that, you seem to be exaggerating them into something else.

 

No more than Ward endlessly exaggerates his fluff and calls it “accurate”.

 

Hardly, part of me wonders if you've even read the fluff in question.

 

As for the specific quote, here it is:

*cough* Ultramar even has excess PDF regiments who are prepared to fight all over the galaxy, so there is really no need for the Ultramarines to stay there.

Edit: I would have pointed out that Ultramar is seen as one of the best defendend regions in the Imperium, but I guess that would only have drawn even more ire.

 

Again, how exactly does that make them superior to the Guard elite?

 

What, that Ultramar’s supposedly great PDF is so fantastic that they are on par with Guard regiments at a moments notice? It certainly seems accurate to me. Though again levels of sarcasm were used here.

 

They are on par with Guard regiments, not something impossible as noted in the Guard Codex, but not the Guard elite.

 

Yes, half a dozen barely known incidents which were either when they only had a small token force there, were subservient to the Blood Angels, at a time when they were the only legion with enough strength to be the main force behind them, or made up half known events which are barely established upon but are supposedly “as great as the wars on Armageddon or other conflicts.”

 

First of all the latter is included in the ''other conflicts part'' and I dont' see how it's any mark above them that they served under the Blood Angels or were only able to provide as small force due to travel constraints.

 

Not to mention a good source to point out that the Ultramarine’s claims to fame seem to either be false or that “the greatest of all chapters” seems to endlessly leave massive battles to supposedly lesser forces of space marines.

 

How exactly does any of that leave a mark on the Ultramarines or prove your exaggerated points?

 

Yes, who as I recall was dealing with an incursion so minor that the Tau had to perform a sneak attack to try and take the world for themselves and ran at the thought of losing it permanently. Hardly a task worthy of “the greatest of all space marines”.

 

Pavonis was noted ot be a trade hub in the book and a vital industiral post int he sector. And wheter it's worthy of them or not does not matter. The Astartes protect the Emperor's realm against xenos. In protecting a chapter's space a great deal of minor conflicts are to be expected.

 

We’re also never given an exact number of chapters which were returning so for all we know most were already there.

 

We were actually, Calgar gave us a headcount in the novel.

 

Why not, the fifth edition apparently describes them as being so powerful and so great it would only take one hundred of them to totally defeat the Eye of Terror.

 

Where is that? I don't see that mentioned anywhere in the 5th editon at all. Another one of your exaggerations I suspose.

 

According to Legatus and The Emperor’s Champion, each part gives any force who uses it absolute supremacy on the battlefield with no drawbacks. Ward seem to think the same thing. It certainly sounds unbeatable to me.

 

First of all I don't think that's what they said. Second of all no drawbacks does not mean unbeatable.

 

Several codexes, the Nimbosa Crusade. “Aberrants” known as the Black Templers along with the Imperial Fists stormed orbital defence stations and took them intact so their guns could be turned upon other Tau forces. The Ultramanrines then did the easy task of ambushing the Tau garrison and taking down the anti-air guns. There will probably be an “update” later on detailing how this was entirely thanks to the Ultramarines that there was any Imperial victory and fools like the Black Templars only caused them problems.

 

How was the Ultramarines task easier? Do you have detailed proof on the Tau ground forces vs their orbital forces? You make another assumption.

 

Considering they seemed to instantly obey their commands without question, answered the crusade en mass and are now apparently totally subservient to the Ultramarines:

 

I don't see how they were subservient to the Ultramarines. They were under Sicarius's command, but he apppeared to be the senior officer their and had arrived first and most likely had a better graspof the situation. It's only logical and natural that they would fight as best as possible with their allies

 

Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch. – fifth edition Space Marine Ultramarines codex.

 

This is irrelevant, it does not deal with inter-chapter cooperation.

 

Last I looked the White Scars had considerably more bike squadrons and different tactics from codex chapters, and none of those were lusting after Guilliman, hating their own primarchs because of their “divergent heritage”. The fifth edition changed a lot of things for the worse. Not to mention that the author of that fluff openly stated that “all chapters want to be them and recognise Calgar as their spiritual liege.”

 

Once again, this is not relevent to the stated battle in question.

 

Mainly the third paragraph where it is noted it was Sicarius who led the entire damn thing and it was only his tactics which allowed for any victory.

 

How the hell do you get sole credit from that?

 

There is also the small problem that only the Ultramarines are listed as fighting most of the battles, save for a small bit where Ward seems to have begrudgingly listed the other chapters fighting.

 

No, the Ultramarines were listed first because they arrived first and then on a more generic description.

 

It then goes on to all but blame the other chapters for leaving to deal with their own problems and not following the Ultramarines on an offensive into Tau space and ends praising Sicarius.

 

No it doesn't nowhere does it lay blame on the feet of the other chapters. All chapteers had to disband, but that was something that applied to everybody. Once again you exaggerate.

 

That certainly sounds like only the Ultramarines were given sole credit for any victory.

 

No it does not.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knights_of_the_Raven

They are alleged to be a Raven Guard successor in the Imperial Armour Volume Eight and the following is listed for that brief disagreement between them and the Aurora Chapter:

At one point, they come to blows with brother marines from the Aurora Chapter and the Lord of Macragge, Marneus Calgar of theUltramarines Chapter had to step in to end the conflict. As penance, the Knights of the Raven Chapter is currently engaged in an arduous deployment of hit-and-run attacks against Hive Fleet Kraken – Fifth Edition Space Marine Codex page 28. It’s there.

 

First of all Lexicanum is not a reliable source. Second of all it says Calgar stepped in, nothing about him ordering them. that does not change my point at all

 

Thus trying to show the Ultramarines as being humble and noble and allowing Ward the opportunity to again try to cram in more crap relating to how “great” they are. When fluff seems to give up telling the tale of one chapter in favour of stating “the Ultramarines were there and they did...” then they have stolen a great deal of the glory.

 

A ''great deal of the glory''? First of all it was a coalition of chapters present and the Ultramarines took part fighting the same as the rest and helped retrive wreckage. How the hell is that stealing a great deal of the glory? Nowhere out-universe or in-universe is that even implied. It's the exact opposite if anything.

 

Something which is contradicted by this site’s “ultramarines timeline” listing the battle as being one of their victories and one of the battles they participated in, despite doing next to nothing.

 

So you are basing it on this site's timeline and not the actual text itself? Are you serious? Are you going on fan compilation rather than direct quotes? And where does it say in the text that they did next to nothing? I recall them taking apart in the initial fleet actions.

 

And yes, they did nothing besides possibly finish an enemy another chapter had died crippling for them and “honouring” the Astral Swords so Ward could write more about the Ultramarines.

 

Incorrect, the fluff deatils how they took part in joint operations before the Astral Knights attack with other chapters.

 

You don't have any proof. You just have exaggerated claims.

 

Unless of course they command their successor and the subservient lesser chapters who now adore them to do the hard work for them.

 

Which is a good thing that's not what they do. :)

[calgar101]

That is a very valid point Gaius, that had totally slipped my mind.

[Gree]

Personally I prefer legions. I am a firm believer in centralized command. Guilliman gave that to the guard and navy, but not the space marines. Their autonomy works against them, because as independent factions there is a greater chance they might miss a situation where they could've lent a hand.

 

The Guard don't really have centralized command really. Most Guard responses are local responses. Same with Navy. and Even in the Legion days the Astartes only answered to Warmaster and Emperor.

[Marshal Rohr]

Imperial Armor points to each sector having a high command subservient to a segmentum command Under IMPHICOM on terra.

 

Vraks makes the most mention of it.

[Gaius Atticus]

Personally I prefer legions. I am a firm believer in centralized command. Guilliman gave that to the guard and navy, but not the space marines. Their autonomy works against them, because as independent factions there is a greater chance they might miss a situation where they could've lent a hand.

 

The Guard don't really have centralized command really. Most Guard responses are local responses. Same with Navy. and Even in the Legion days the Astartes only answered to Warmaster and Emperor.

IIRC the Guard are so large it's impossible to:

a) record how many sign up

:) how many die

c) replace losses existing companies as the cost would be too great. Replacements come entirely from whiteshields or local population if the company is a permanent/long-term garrison

 

So companies are similarly independent, left to fight on until they are wiped out. They can be massed together to form large armies similar to Chapters of marines.

 

Also, from what I gather Marines are called in when the local PDF are not up to the task of completing their mission/defending their area. Therefore I expect most marine operations are in conjunction with the IG, so that is a point is null and void when it comes to Space Marines needing help from the IG.

[Marshal Rohr]

Only one chapter I know of has the resources and manpower to actually

Wage a full scale war on a planet.

[calgar101]

I am thinking Templars or Ultramarines? Chapter size wise Templars but resource wise the Ultramarines could do it.

[Gaius Atticus]

Only one chapter I know of has the resources and manpower to actually

Wage a full scale war on a planet.

Realistically though, how easy would it be for them to muster all together and actually plan an invasion?

[Gree]

Only one chapter I know of has the resources and manpower to actually

Wage a full scale war on a planet.

 

Depends on the planet. Some random agri-world is a different beast than a hive world of a fortress world.

[Gaius Atticus]

Only one chapter I know of has the resources and manpower to actually

Wage a full scale war on a planet.

 

Depends on the planet. Some random agri-world is a different beast than a hive world of a fortress world.

That is true, but generally I would expect a couple of Chapters to lead a force of IG and the Navy when capturing a planet, rather than a chapter attempting to do it themselves.

[Legatus]

I think the Codex Astartes makes it easy for companies from different Chapters to easily merge together as a temporary fighting force.

That the Codex provides standardised procedures probably does make any cooperation between Chapters (or Marines and Guard or Navy) a lot easier.

 

 

Only one chapter I know of has the resources and manpower to actually

Wage a full scale war on a planet.

Unfortunately the Black Templars can never rally all their forces in one place, or else they would be unable to hide their excessive numbers. :) So it doesn't really make much difference whether five Templar Crusades or five Chapters are fighting against five unrelated threats.

[Dinks]

Unfortunately the Black Templars can never rally all their forces in one place, or else they would be unable to hide their excessive numbers. :) So it doesn't really make much difference whether five Templar Crusades or five Chapters are fighting against five unrelated threats.

I don't think the Black Templars would care if they were discovered to have large numbers, who would be stupid enough to confront them?

[Arkangilos]

Unfortunately the Black Templars can never rally all their forces in one place, or else they would be unable to hide their excessive numbers. :) So it doesn't really make much difference whether five Templar Crusades or five Chapters are fighting against five unrelated threats.

I don't think the Black Templars would care if they were discovered to have large numbers, who would be stupid enough to confront them?

 

The Inquisition, SoB, various Codex Chapters that side with the Inquisition, and millions of screaming gaurdsmen. It would be enough to start another civil war IMO.

[Dinks]

I agree it could start a war, but i would think most chapters would side with the Black Templars purely because of the autonomous nature of Space Marine chapters, as essentially the Inquistion and other outside forces have no right to meddle in Astartes affairs.

[Olis]

I agree it could start a war, but i would think most chapters would side with the Black Templars purely because of the autonomous nature of Space Marine chapters, as essentially the Inquistion and other outside forces have no right to meddle in Astartes affairs.

 

You sound curiously like Lufgt Huron, you know. :D

[Legatus]

Just like the Imperium had no business meddling with Huron Blackhearst affairs, right? :D

 

Edit: Doh, ninja'd...

[The Emperor's Champion]

Centralized command is a joke in the Imperium and really can't exist. The Imperial data processing system so vast and complex that reporting up a string of command to the top and then receiving orders back down the chain of command can take hundreds of years.

It's for that very reason that it's quite common for Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy forces to set out and arrive at a crusade they were ordered to join only to find that the battle was lost or won hundreds of years ago.

 

At best, Imperial Guard regiments will take orders from whoever has been elected as Lord Commander of the campaign they're on, but realistically even that guy will barely be able to keep a grasp on what the forces under his command are doing since the shear amount of data is just too massive. So really it falls to individual generals to assess their local situations and coordinate with their peers in neighboring battlefields.

 

Same really goes for Space Marines. The Legions only worked because they weren't everywhere defending everything. Hell, The Black Templar aren't an example of Legions being the correct choice. They're an example of Chapters being the correct choice. Helbrecht hangs with one Crusade while the others run around basically autonomous. They may say hi to each other every once in a while, and occasionally a couple get together to fight something really big, but they're just far more effective by being self-sufficient.

And instead of say ordering 3 Crusades of Templar from various locations in the galaxy to all meet at one planet, it makes much more sense to just be able to contact a Chapter local to the warzone and get them to join in.

For all the that their increased numbers would supposedly do for them....they dont'. They've got themselves split up into little Black Templar "Chapters" anyways.

 

Granted, the issue of a centralized command being useless might be different if Warp travel and communication were quick and reliable, but that's not the case.

[Dinks]

You sound curiously like Lufgt Huron, you know. :D

Muahaha!

 

No but really the Emperor specifically stated that the Astartes are to be autonomous, many chapters would take the word of the Emperor over a Primarch such as Guilliman who, as many chapters see, restricted a chapter in specific areas such as chapter size.

[Legatus]

No but really the Emperor specifically stated that the Astartes are to be autonomous

I can imagine that this was somehow tied to the fact that each Legion was commanded by one of his super sons, and not a mere genetically upgraded human. And even the Primarchs were not left do do whatever they wanted with their own Legion, they were expected to fight the Crusade for the Emperor. They simply where given free reight over where and how to fight.