Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 No but really the Emperor specifically stated that the Astartes are to be autonomous I can imagine that this was somehow tied to the fact that each Legion was commanded by one of his super sons, and not a mere genetically upgraded human. And even the Primarchs were not left do do whatever they wanted with their own Legion, they were expected to fight the Crusade for the Emperor. They simply where given free reight over where and how to fight. I agree, but because the Emperor specifically stated Astartes and never recinded it, many chapters would still use that as all the justification they needed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Just like the Imperium had no business meddling with Huron Blackhearst affairs, right? ;) Edit: Doh, ninja'd... Hya! I think that's probably my first one ever... ;) I agree, but because the Emperor specifically stated Astartes and never recinded it, many chapters would still use that as all the justification they needed. True, including (shock horror) the Astral Claws. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 True, including (shock horror) the Astral Claws. ;) To a certain degree i think the Emperor actually ment all Astartes, through the all the ages, they are the most potent force within the Imperium and so i doubt he would want them to be shackled so much they can't operate effectively. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Does anyone by chance know where it was stated that the Emperor said that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 A lot of Marines sort of lose sight of it, but they were created to be the servants of mankind, not vice versa. Pretty much everything The Emperor ever did was in the interest of protecting and aiding mankind. His Primarchs weren't created because he thought he should create some guys to play Age Of Empires within his empire. He created them to serve and protect his empire. The Primarchs and their desires are not more important than humanity. They were powerful weapons created to serve. Hell, The Emperor himself isn't more important than mankind. His importance comes simply from the fact that he's what keeps mankind safe. That has pretty much been his entire reason for existing since the dawn of the species, and it has been the ultimate motive of pretty much everything he did, made, or genetically engineered. Granted, humans are ultimately short-sighted and limited in their scope of understanding, so there needs to be a degree of separation between humanity and how directly it can control its superhuman guardians, but it still SHOULD have control. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Does anyone by chance know where it was stated that the Emperor said that? I think it is one of the implied things that can be read multipul ways. Like he wanted the astartes to be autonomous in the sense that they can take care of themselves doing His work is what I got out of it, but they might have gotten something better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 That has pretty much been his entire reason for existing since the dawn of the species He isn't that old. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 That has pretty much been his entire reason for existing since the dawn of the species He isn't that old. He actually is, he was born sometime in the BC era. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 He was born sometime in the 8th Millennium B.C, that isn't the dawn of the species. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 That isn't he dawn of the species though. No no, but he was created by the people who first watched over humanity. When they figured out that they couldn't anymore, they formed him to do their job, so in a way he was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 No no, but he was created by the people who first watched over humanity. When they figured out that they couldn't anymore, they formed him to do their job, so in a way he was. Even still he was born in the 8th Millennium B.C, he techically did not exist before then. Going back further still, shamans haven't always existed and so there were no people "to watch over humanity" during the early days of the species. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 A lot of Marines sort of lose sight of it, but they were created to be the servants of mankind, not vice versa.Pretty much everything The Emperor ever did was in the interest of protecting and aiding mankind. His Primarchs weren't created because he thought he should create some i am going to have to disagree with that. I believe Space Marines were created to kill the living crap out of every being in the galaxy the Emperor commands. They are not meant to be watchful protectors, dark knights ready to swoop in and save the day. They are built to topple empires, slay kings, and salt the earth. Space Marines were meant to be the monsters that keep soldiers awakeat night, death put in flesh. His Great Crusade was to bring the scattered remnants of humanity back into his embrace, and purge any being who resisted. thats what the Codex Astartes really did to the Legions. it turned them from their true goal into security guards. (all my opinion). and the astral claws...they had the right ideas, just piss poor ways of actually doing it. a legion stationed at cadia would prevent the majority of chaos incursions, a legion at the maelstrom would do the same. it took many years of fruitless combat to embitter what was a worthwhile dream. (think harvey dent in the dark knight) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 That wasn't the point. The point was that the Space Marines were not intended to fight for their own sake and left to do whatever they wanted, they had a specific purpose, and that purpose was to fight for humanity. Space Mrines are never truly independent of the Imperium, because it is their mission to fight for it. Without that mission they would have no meaning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828614 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 That wasn't the point. The point was that the Space Marines were not intended to fight for their own sake and left to do whatever they wanted, they had a specific purpose, and that purpose was to fight for humanity. Space Mrines are never truly independent of the Imperium, because it is their mission to fight for it. Without that mission they would have no meaning. i dont believe that is what was said, because fighting for humanity does not make you its servants. if the post had a meaning other than the words it was using, then i apoligize for mistaking it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 That isn't he dawn of the species though. No no, but he was created by the people who first watched over humanity. When they figured out that they couldn't anymore, they formed him to do their job, so in a way he was. That's the same logic as saying "there was a guy in my company hired in the 70's, and when he retired last year, I was hired to replace him, so therefore I was hired in the 70's". The Shamen were around for a lot longer than the Emperor, and the Emperor was only born 8000 BC, or whatever. That in no way means the Emperor has been around for as long as the Shamen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Lol, that isn't what I meant. I meant he was formed to keep the job going. But also, IIRC, he actually has the souls of all of teh Shamans, so he actually is them only merged into one, and that would make him them :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 i dont believe that is what was said, because fighting for humanity does not make you its servants. if the post had a meaning other than the words it was using, then i apoligize for mistaking it. That was what was being said. Though the word "protecting" was used, which may have set you off on a different tangent. If you blank out that word (leaving "aiding" or "serving" mankind) it is rather obvious that the statement was about the purpose of Space Marines to work for humanity, and not being created as a self serving entity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't believe that Space Marines were created to serve mankind. They were created to conquer the galaxy. In the background the marines debate this very issue, so it isn't meant to be answered. Unsurprisingly Sigismund foresaw this and built his chapter to perpetually wage war. Independently if necessary. It's impossible to do a head count of marines operating in a campaign, it took torture for the Imperium to realize the Astral Claws had grown beyond 1000 marines. It's unlikely anyone save the High Marshal and High Apothecary know the truth about the Templars size, giving them the security to carry on. So reasonably the Templars could gather without repercussions. And the argument can be made even the Ultramarines fail to serve mankind. They rule their own empire, in itself a violation. They are in charge the Ultramar PDF, who are an army in their own right, another violation. Their fleet is arguably in violation, if you take the Seditio as canon. These are the three big separations Guilliman sought to make happen. Tradition is no excuse, and may have held water when Guilliman was alive, but now it's just a post human in charge and doesn't really apply anymore :P . My point is that chapters have always done their own thing, sometimes in benefit of humanity, othertimes in benefit of themselves. Each is a unique snowflake, ultimately unaffected by the High Lords as they have bigger fish to fry. Also, there are plenty of references to centralized command, regardless of it's efficiency. It was possible once and it conquered tge galaxy. Never forget that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Lol, that isn't what I meant. I meant he was formed to keep the job going. But also, IIRC, he actually has the souls of all of teh Shamans, so he actually is them only merged into one, and that would make him them :P It is specifically mentioned that some of the shamans remembered walking under the African sun at the dawn of the species. And then, yea, The Emperor is all of those shamans reborn into a single man, and he has all of their memories. So yes, The Emperor has, basically, been watching over mankind since the dawn of the species (unless we want to be technical and assume it took the shamans a while to REALLY start watching over their ordinary brethren, I suppose). Also, there are plenty of references to centralized command, regardless of it's efficiency. It was possible once and it conquered tge galaxy. Never forget that. Conquering the galaxy and keeping control of the galaxy are two different kettles of fish. Steam rolling across the thing with concentrated mobs of troops isn't the same as having them spread out across the whole thing, and in much smaller number, no less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 thats what the Codex Astartes really did to the Legions. it turned them from their true goal into security guards. Nope, Horus was the one who did that. Guilliman just adapted to conditions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't believe that Space Marines were created to serve mankind. They were created to conquer the galaxy. ... for mankind. Is there really that much ambiguity in the word "serve"? I wouldn't think so, since a short 40K quote search provided quotes from generic Marines up to the Space Wolves and the Black Templars which all contain the words "serve the Emperor" in them. But maybe the problem is not with "serving" mankind, it is that Space Marines first and foremost serve the Emperor, and not specifically mankind. But their agendas can not really be considered to differ, so that would still amount to the same. Conquer worlds and defeating xenos to serve the Emperor of Mankind, or conquering worlds an defeating xenos to serve mankind. However you want to put it, Space Marines were not created to be a self serving species which had great fun in warfare and were somewhat allied to mankind and had a similar cause. They were made for a purpose. "They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear." (4th Edition BBB, p. 0) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 They rule their own empire, in itself a violation. As of the 5th edition codex that is not such a rare thing, the last paragraph of the Chapter Master entry mentions the power a Chapter Master has. The Ultramarines are unique in the size and how well run their 'empire' is but they're not alone, I'm sure The Rout have a mini empire carved from the Fenris system and some neighbours. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Also, having an empire is 'common' enough that the Imperium doesn't think twice when Lufgt Huron declared the Badab Sector a protectorate of his Chapter. Ultramar is definitely not unique in its status. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 It depends on what you understand by 'mankind'. Some chapters - like the Salamanders - are closer to the people of the Imperium. Others, to the concept of Imperium. But I think it's safe to say that, tyrants and falls from grace apart, Space Marines do what they do (and therein lies the biggest difference between each of them, the 'how') for Humanity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 thats what the Codex Astartes really did to the Legions. it turned them from their true goal into security guards. Nope, Horus was the one who did that. Guilliman just adapted to conditions. The true goal of the space marines was to conquer the galaxy. There is no denying that. The Emperor never was able to say what he planned for space marines following the GC. All we know is what GUILLIMAN planned for the Space Marines. I don't believe that Space Marines were created to serve mankind. They were created to conquer the galaxy. ... for mankind. Is there really that much ambiguity in the word "serve"? I wouldn't think so, since a short 40K quote search provided quotes from generic Marines up to the Space Wolves and the Black Templars which all contain the words "serve the Emperor" in them. But maybe the problem is not with "serving" mankind, it is that Space Marines first and foremost serve the Emperor, and not specifically mankind. But their agendas can not really be considered to differ, so that would still amount to the same. Conquer worlds and defeating xenos to serve the Emperor of Mankind, or conquering worlds an defeating xenos to serve mankind. However you want to put it, Space Marines were not created to be a self serving species which had great fun in warfare and were somewhat allied to mankind and had a similar cause. They were made for a purpose. First, the space marines all serve the Emperor in their own fashion. Second, the goals of the High Lords ARE NOT the goals of the Emperor. They are the goals of the High Lords. Remember when the Emperor once said 'Loyalty to Horus is de facto loyalty to me'? The High Lords are not noble defenders of mankind. They are ;) -hole tyrants that make the worst genocidal maniacs in human history look like that sweet guy girls always put in the friend zone. That's right. The High Lords make Caligula look like a acne covered preteen in how much of a threat to people they are. Space Marines where created as 'bulwarks against the terror and defenders of humanity and badasses of all badasses' but how they do that is entirely up to them, as long as they actually do that. The Emperor never told ANYONE how they should do that, it was up to the Primarchs. When he died it became Guilliman's vision of what Space Marines should be. And Guilliman's vision is not the same as the Emperor's. Or one of his other sovereign sons. They rule their own empire, in itself a violation. As of the 5th edition codex that is not such a rare thing, the last paragraph of the Chapter Master entry mentions the power a Chapter Master has. The Ultramarines are unique in the size and how well run their 'empire' is but they're not alone, I'm sure The Rout have a mini empire carved from the Fenris system and some neighbours. I doubt the Space Wolves have an empire. When you have the second best fortress in the Imperium and all the recruitment you need in one place, there really is no need to expand. The thing for me is the directly rule such an empire. DIRECTLY. Each sergeant is a senator, etc. Huron ran Badab from the top, but marines were moral enforcement, not administrators. Also, as much as I love the story of the Badab War, ultimately its the worst example to give of why a Chapter should have an empire :P . Also, having an empire is 'common' enough that the Imperium doesn't think twice when Lufgt Huron declared the Badab Sector a protectorate of his Chapter. Ultramar is definitely not unique in its status. They did have a problem with the fact it immediately cut those precious supplies from the rest of the Imperium and caused trade disruptions with the surrounding sectors. Huron's empire created a huge splash in the pond, where as Ultramar IS the pond for the Ultramarines. Edit: No matter how much power a regent has, he still isnt the king. It more like a Holy Dodecarchy, similar to the Roman polyarchies of ages past. The Master of the Administratum The Inquisitorial Representative The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators The Master of the Astronomican The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum The Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard The Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy and two more I think. Notice, the only Imperial Instituion without a representative is the Space Marines. Not a SINGLE representative. Not ONE Chapter Master. This is because the Space Marines stand apart from the Imperium. They are LITERAL Angels made flesh. A mortal can no more command a manifestation of the Emperor's power than he can control the future or some other intangible force. Think of all the :cuss people have gone through because they were governed without representation. Why should Space Marines feel any differently when responding to the desires of someone who took power from them WITHOUT their consent. When each Primarch died, he didnt leave behind a will that said from henceforth each space marine chapter of my line will look to the High Lords for direction and guidance. Especially since most of them died in battle, and not of old age. The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234720-the-legions-after/page/7/#findComment-2828924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.