The Legions After

[Walter Payton]

They are in charge the Ultramar PDF, who are an army in their own right, another violation.

 

Actually, it's PDA. The Macraggeii ones are called Planetary Defense Auxillia.

 

I would disagree with this point. The Planetary Defense Auxillia are confined to Ultramar, and only attack if threatened. They are distinct from the various Imperial guard regiments that are levied from the worlds of Ultramar, but it is never even hinted that Ultramarian Imperial Guard are under any orders save those of the IG.

 

Their fleet is arguably in violation, if you take the Seditio as canon.

 

I don't think the Seditio is really canon; surely it is contradicted by the more recent references to there being only three Ultramarines battle barges: Octavius, Caesar & Severian.

 

My point is that chapters have always done their own thing, sometimes in benefit of humanity, othertimes in benefit of themselves. Each is a unique snowflake, ultimately unaffected by the High Lords as they have bigger fish to fry.

 

Benefit to humanity is relative, surely? A Marine Malevolent would define it very differently to a Salamander.

[Legatus]

Space Marines where created as 'bulwarks against the terror and defenders of humanity and badasses of all badasses' but how they do that is entirely up to them, as long as they actually do that.

What the Emperor giveth, the Emperor taketh away. More than one Primarch was reprimanded by the Emperor for the way he went about things. Most notably Lorgar and Angron, and Curze only escaped censure because of the erupting Heresy, where half of the Primarchs and their Legions turned against humanity and almost destroyed the Imperium entirely. The reformation into Chapters was a response to that traumatic event.

And the problem was not merely that the Heresy had shown that such an event is possible and has to be anticipated, it had also removed the Emperor and the majority of Primarch, and reduced the forces of the Imperium to a fraction of their former strength. Plus it had created a new enemy in the form of nine traitor Legion who operate from within the Eye of Terror, where they cannot be attacked and extinguished. Such a threat had not existed during the time of the Great Crusade. There is simply no way that the Imperium or the Space Marines could have dusted off and then kept going with the Great Crusade as if nothing had changed. The situation was drastically different, and the background suggests that the Imperium would have fallen entirely, had it not been for the reforms of the military and political structures.

Plus, as had been brought up in other threads, the Imperium actually goes on the offense quite often, undertaking massive crusades to reclaim worlds or widen the borders of the Imperium, and has even overstretched its resources in doing so, which resulted in the current bleak era of grimdark and threats attacking form all sides.

 

 

Notice, the only Imperial Instituion without a representative is the Space Marines. Not a SINGLE representative. Not ONE Chapter Master.

 

This is because the Space Marines stand apart from the Imperium.

They do not have to pay tithes, they do not report to a higher command, they are not sent on missions by a higher command, etc. They operate autonomous and are largely self sufficient, safe for a few war machines or ships they get from the Adeptus mechanicus. But they are still a part of the Imperium, as one of the recognised branches of the Adeptus Terra. However, while the Adeptus Terra is not "in command" of the Space Marine Chapters, there have been known instances where Chapters have been sent on penitence crusades, or where Chapters have been disbanded or ordered destroyed. They are mostly autonomous and independent, but there are a few rules, and those rules have been collected in the Codex Astartes.

[Marshal Rohr]

What the Emperor giveth, the Emperor Guilliman taketh away.

 

The Emperor was gone, dude. We dont know what he would have wanted. We know what Guilliman thought was best, because thats what actually happened. But as for the Emperor's opinion, we wont know.

 

Also, there is NO REASON a Legion couldnt still exist. They were not always gathered together in one place. What was Alpharius expedition, the 670th? That means there are Six Hundred and Seventy other expeditions out there plus however many after that. Its not like the Legions wern't spread out.

 

Look at the way a modern BCT deploys, not every Battalion is in the same place. They can be called together under their Brigade Commander, or they can separate all the way down to company level. Chapters don't have that 'third' level of leadership, they have to form a council or elect a commander. Which, granted, they normally do. But every so often you get situations where combat effectiveness is messed up by a butthurt chapter master like Azrael not wanting to work with Logan Grimnar, Stibor Laezerek being pissy everytime he isnt elected Prom King, or Asterion Moloc being maniacal in the middle of his maze.

 

A Legion has this 'third' level, which is what helped them act as an army. Then of course they also have a 'fourth' level, being the Primarch. They could come together seamlessly to fight the big fights.

 

Granted, in more recent texts, the Codex is being shown as teaching the Legions how to fight as multiple chapters under central leadership after they become independent chapters. Sadly, in the background their is some favoritism mixed with good references, so Ill leave all of them out to avoid more 'canon' debates.

 

 

I hope everyone realizes we are simply discussing the merits of Guilliman's reforms at this point, and our personal opinions. There is no right and wrong, and their is no canon to support either side. There are references and precedents, but no truth.

[Legatus]

The Emperor was gone, dude. We dont know what he would have wanted.

That was in reference to the restrictions the Emperor himself had imposed on his sons. This is still about the purpose behind the Space Marines, and that the desire of a Space Marine commander to command 100,000 warriors instead of 1,000 are irrelevant.

 

 

Also, there is NO REASON a Legion couldnt still exist.

Other than that the Imperium was not willing to have another Legion strength force switch sides, posibly after having gathered more formerly loyal supporters behind them. Defending against an alien or chaos incursion is one thing. Having a massive chunk of your forces suddenly turn on you is something else entirely. The Heresy had proven that it was possible, even with super beings such as Primarchs in command. The Marine Commanders of today are merely augmented humans, not artificially created super beings. Even if there hadn't been any further traitor Chapters in the past 10,000 years, the concerns about a second Heresy are real and viable, and legitimize the reformation of the Legions. But there have been traitor Chapters in the past, so there is not even a debate about whether that preventive reformation was overcautious and would have been unnecessary.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Emperor was gone, dude. We dont know what he would have wanted.

That was in reference to the restrictions the Emperor himself had imposed on his sons. This is still about the purpose behind the Space Marines, and that the desire of a Space Marine commander to command 100,000 warriors instead of 1,000 are irrelevant.

 

The Emperor imposed NO restrictions on his sons. Save the use of dirty, filthy, icky psykers. He would reprimand poor performance or.... over performance in some cases, but each was still sovereign.

 

 

Also, there is NO REASON a Legion couldnt still exist.

Other than that the Imperium was not willing to have another Legion strength force switch sides, posibly after having gathered more formerly loyal supporters behind them. Defending against an alien or chaos incursion is one thing. Having a massive chunk of your forces suddenly turn on you is something else entirely. The Heresy had proven that it was possible, even with super beings such as Primarchs in command. The Marine Commanders of today are merely augmented humans, not artificially created super beings. Even if there hadn't been any further traitor Chapters in the past 10,000 years, the concerns about a second Heresy are real and viable, and legitimize the reformation of the Legions. But there have been traitor Chapters in the past, so there is not even a debate about whether that preventive reformation was overcautious and would have been unnecessary.

 

Im talking about logistically. TEC said that centralized command is impossible. This is false, it is possible, it happened once before, and its still the case. The Imperial Guard has tactical (sectors), operational (Segmentums), and strategic (ImpHiCom) command capabilities and uses these. The slowness is irrelevent, it still happens.

[Dinks]

The Emperor imposed NO restrictions on his sons. Save the use of dirty, filthy, icky psykers.

That is true, the Emperor didn't impose anything on his sons, apart from the use of psykers and trying to stop Lorgar worshipping him.

[Legatus]

The Emperor imposed NO restrictions on his sons. Save the use of dirty, filthy, icky psykers.

That is true, the Emperor didn't impose anything on his sons, from from the use of psykers and stopping Lorgar worshipping him.

Well, he provided them with a certain brand of soldiers and with the equipment they would use. And Anrgon and Curze were not reprimanded for poor performance. And while his issues with Lorgar were mainly about performance in the previous lore, in the Horus Heresy it is also about what Lorgar used his Legion for. The Primarchs were not left to live their lifes as they wanted, and to do everything they wanted. They were created for a purpose, and they had to work toward that goal. If a Primarchs actions or wishes were conflicting to that purpose, they had to comply. The wishes of the Space Marines or of a Primarch are not above the good of the Imperium. If the Imperium says "jump", the Space Marine asks "how high", or else he will be declared excommunicate hereticus. The Adeptus Astartes simply have an agreement with the Imperium that it will not generally say "jump" very often.

 

 

Edit:

Im talking about logistically. TEC said that centralized command is impossible. This is false, it is possible, it happened once before, and its still the case. The Imperial Guard has tactical (sectors), operational (Segmentums), and strategic (ImpHiCom) command capabilities and uses these. The slowness is irrelevent, it still happens.

Slowness is not irrelevant, since faster reaction times are a valid reason for this changed structure. IIRC there are a few sources where it is mentioned that Space Marine Chapters are generally faster in responding to new threats than the Imperial Guard is.

[Marshal Rohr]

I disagree. The Imperium has NO RIGHT to ask the Space Marines to jump. They are just humans. They are weak and corrupt. The Administratum is self serving. Every human being on the council is a craven tyrant intent on political gain and power. MOST space marines are morally above them. Look at Marneus Calgar or Dante, either one would make a FAR better High Lord than the corrupt despots on the council.

 

 

 

As an aside, when the High Lords succumbed to treachery from within (one of three times I think) and Vandire took over, the Imperial Fists didnt reform the Administratum. You didnt see Space Marines establish oversight into human affairs like the High Lords did following the Heresy. Then there was the time of two Imperiums that has as equally damaging as the Heresy. OH, and the time the Master of the Assassinorum killed the other High Lords.

 

See, people like to focus on the Horus Heresy as essentially ruining the Imperium, when in all reality, regular humans having been doing pretty good at -ing it all up for 10,000 years. Just one civil war, led by a Primarch mind you, was enough to make space marines become lap dogs of regular men. But THREE civil wars hasn't been enough to reverse the roles.

 

Space Marines are great at responding to localized threats quickly. The Imperial Guard however is under a strategic command and can go anywhere in the galaxy en masse and outperform space marines on a strategic scale.

 

Think about it. Army Groups with BILLIONS of men trained to the standard of modern day Ranger Regiment, Marine Corps, etc. Backed by armor and artillery as well as a dedicated navy. These guys are not a joke. Space Marines are superior to them and make a mockery of them, but the beauty of the IG is when it fights another mortal army. Those are the best battle. Khai-Zahn, Vraks, etc. Badass. They can do this, even if it takes a long time, and it doesn't matter if everyone on the planet dies, as long as the planet comes back into the Imperium.

 

The Ultramarines can't go to the Eye of Terror ever time Abaddon comes out to blow :D up. The Blood Angels can't always go to Armageddon. The Dark Angels can't go fight the Tau everyday. Chapters force Space Marines to become localized. Sure a company here or there can go all the way to the otherside of the galaxy for a Crusade, but it cant stay there like a Legion expiditionary force could.

[Dinks]

Well, he provided them with a certain brand of soldiers and with the equipment they would use. And Anrgon and Curze were not reprimanded for poor performance. And while his issues with Lorgar were mainly about performance in the previous lore, in the Horus Heresy it is also about what Lorgar used his Legion for. The Primarchs were not left to live their lifes as they wanted, and to do everything they wanted. They were created for a purpose, and they had to work toward that goal. If a Primarchs actions or wishes were conflicting to that purpose, they had to comply. The wishes of the Space Marines or of a Primarch are not above the good of the Imperium. If the Imperium says "jump", the Space Marine asks "how high", or else he will be declared excommunicate hereticus. The Adeptus Astartes simply have an agreement with the Imperium that it will not generally say "jump" very often.

Indeed but the Emperor created the Primarchs for one thing, to lead the Legions and to lead their own expeditions, that was their specific task. Each Primarch did their duty well, considering the differnt skill sets each of them had.

 

I disagree. The Imperium has NO RIGHT to ask the Space Marines to jump. They are just humans. They are weak and corrupt. The Administratum is self serving. Every human being on the council is a craven tyrant intent on political gain and power. MOST space marines are morally above them. Look at Marneus Calgar or Dante, either one would make a FAR better High Lord than the corrupt despots on the council.

I couldn't agree with you more. The Imperium should not meddle in what Astartes do and do not do.

 

The trouble is that the Imperium is so corrupt, certain individuals play for power and what better display of power than to bring the Astartes to heel.

[Legatus]

I disagree. The Imperium has NO RIGHT to ask the Space Marines to jump. They are just humans. They are weak and corrupt. The Administratum is self serving. Every human being on the council is a craven tyrant intent on political gain and power.

They may be more concerned about their own position of power than about millions ro billions of human lives, but their position of power is as part of the Imperium, so they invariably have the continuing existance of the humam Imperium in mind.

 

Space Marines are warriors of the Imperium. They were not created to have freedom self-actualization. If 100,000 Space Marines under the command of a single individual are deemed to great a risk, then Space Marines will have to "jump".

 

 

As an aside, when the High Lords succumbed to treachery from within (one of three times I think) and Vandire took over, the Imperial Fists didnt reform the Administratum. You didnt see Space Marines establish oversight into human affairs like the High Lords did following the Heresy. Then there was the time of two Imperiums that has as equally damaging as the Heresy. OH, and the time the Master of the Assassinorum killed the other High Lords.

The purpose behind establishing a council instead of nominating an individual regent was that no single fallible individual could be trusted to do an adequate job. And IIRC in those case it was individuals circumventing or going against the Council structure that caused the problem, not that there was a council to begin with. Though I am not that familiar with the details of all those incidents, I know that this was the case with Vandire, who first grabbed two seats in the council and had other members of the council in his pocket through religious pressure (being the head of the ministorum). The original purpose of establishing a council had been to keep that much power out of the hands of a single individual.

[Dinks]

Space Marines are warriors of the Imperium. They were not created to have freedom self-actualization. If 100,000 Space Marines under the command of a single individual are deemed to great a risk, then Space Marines will have to "jump".

The trouble is self-actualization is what they have had all along, but never really came forward in personalities while they served the Primarchs. After the Primarchs died/disappeared/hid, self-actualization is one thing that came forward in a rush for many many Space Marines.

 

Self-actualization is after all, the motive to realise one's full potential.

 

The original purpose of establishing a council had been to keep that much power out of the hands of a single individual.

The original purpose yes, now look at it, full of self serving individuals that fight amoungst themselves more than they do trying to "defend" the Imperium.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i would chime bac in, but M2C is doing a better job than i probably could, so i wont bother. needless to say, i am pretty much in agreeance with everything he has said so far.

 

(damn job keeping me away from the forums for so long!)

 

WLK

[Dinks]

i would chime bac in, but M2C is doing a better job than i probably could, so i wont bother. needless to say, i am pretty much in agreeance with everything he has said so far.

I have to agree that he puts his points across pretty well, which is very good.

[Gree]

They are :cuss -hole tyrants that make the worst genocidal maniacs in human history look like that sweet guy girls always put in the friend zone. That's right. The High Lords make Caligula look like a acne covered preteen in how much of a threat to people they are.

 

Actually we don't know that. We don't even know their names or personalities. Not to mention the fact that their have been countless generations of Hihg Lords throughout the centuries.

 

I disagree. The Imperium has NO RIGHT to ask the Space Marines to jump. They are just humans. They are weak and corrupt. The Administratum is self serving. Every human being on the council is a craven tyrant intent on political gain and power.

 

Proof? You don't know that.

 

The Astartes exist entirely at the behest of the Imperium. If the Imperium, one day, decided to screw over the Astartes, they would be screwed. The Astartes without the Imperium are a spearhead without a shaft, one cog of a larger machine.

 

As an aside, when the High Lords succumbed to treachery from within (one of three times I think) and Vandire took over, the Imperial Fists didnt reform the Administratum. You didnt see Space Marines establish oversight into human affairs like the High Lords did following the Heresy. Then there was the time of two Imperiums that has as equally damaging as the Heresy. OH, and the time the Master of the Assassinorum killed the other High Lords.

 

The High Lords succum to treachery just thee times? That's a much better track record than the Astartes at least (Codex Chaos putting at least 50 chapters turning traitor)

 

Space Marines are great at responding to localized threats quickly. The Imperial Guard however is under a strategic command and can go anywhere in the galaxy en masse and outperform space marines on a strategic scale.

 

Theoretically yes, practically? With the warp travel and the Imperial paperwork? No.

 

The Ultramarines can't go to the Eye of Terror ever time Abaddon comes out to blow :cuss up. The Blood Angels can't always go to Armageddon. The Dark Angels can't go fight the Tau everyday. Chapters force Space Marines to become localized. Sure a company here or there can go all the way to the otherside of the galaxy for a Crusade, but it cant stay there like a Legion expiditionary force could.

 

In general they would be forced itno a defensive role anyway because of the Astromonican limits. You do realize that most Guard responses are local? Most Guard regiments are raised in response to a local sector threat?

[Marshal Rohr]

I disagree. The Imperium has NO RIGHT to ask the Space Marines to jump. They are just humans. They are weak and corrupt. The Administratum is self serving. Every human being on the council is a craven tyrant intent on political gain and power.

They may be more concerned about their own position of power than about millions ro billions of human lives, but their position of power is as part of the Imperium, so they invariably have the continuing existance of the humam Imperium in mind.

 

Space Marines are warriors of the Imperium. They were not created to have freedom self-actualization. If 100,000 Space Marines under the command of a single individual are deemed to great a risk, then Space Marines will have to "jump".

 

I am not so much talking about the Chapter structure as a am the notion that the reforms forced chapters into being subservient to normal humans. They were created to be super humans led by a demi-god, the idea that one day their would be no demi-gods to lead them was not part of the original plan. When the time came to figure out what to do with several hundred thousand very angry, very deadly warriors Guilliman thought the best thing to do would be to split them up, make them independent from a unified command, and take away their heavy battleships. By making them part of the Adeptus, he put easily corruptible humans in charge of them, which was NEVER part of the Emperor's plan.

 

The Emperor had a purpose for the Primarch's, we will never know what it was, but we know he had one based on the fact Magnus was going to be sacrificed on the Golden Throne, Dorn was to be his Guardian, Horus his general, Guilliman his Guardian of the Frontier, etc (even though that is all speculation by a space wolf, some of it has merit and basis in what actually happened).

 

 

As an aside, when the High Lords succumbed to treachery from within (one of three times I think) and Vandire took over, the Imperial Fists didnt reform the Administratum. You didnt see Space Marines establish oversight into human affairs like the High Lords did following the Heresy. Then there was the time of two Imperiums that has as equally damaging as the Heresy. OH, and the time the Master of the Assassinorum killed the other High Lords.

The purpose behind establishing a council instead of nominating an individual regent was that no single fallible individual could be trusted to do an adequate job. And IIRC in those case it was individuals circumventing or going against the Council structure that caused the problem, not that there was a council to begin with. Though I am not that familiar with the details of all those incidents, I know that this was the case with Vandire, who first grabbed two seats in the council and had other members of the council in his pocket through religious pressure (being the head of the ministorum). The original purpose of establishing a council had been to keep that much power out of the hands of a single individual.

 

The Emperor created the Primarchs to be ultimately and unbreakably loyal to him. Wouldn't you say Horus going rogue with half the Primarchs in his pocket from various pressures was mightily similar. If the institution of the High Lords was allowed to continue existing after that, why wouldn't the Legions?

 

Gree, absoltue power corrupts absolutely. Its a universal law as constant as gravity. These arn't people who knew incorruptibility like Dorn and Guilliman, they are nobles who have lived a life of decadence and want for nothing. It is impossible to think the High Lords are not corrupt, they are human, and humans are inherently evil and corrupt.

[augustmanifesto]

The trouble is self-actualization is what they have had all along, but never really came forward in personalities while they served the Primarchs. After the Primarchs died/disappeared/hid, self-actualization is one thing that came forward in a rush for many many Space Marines.

 

Self-actualization is after all, the motive to realise one's full potential.

 

Just to chime in on this point, there is no necessary mutual exclusion between serving The Emperor/humanity (wherever one stands on that debate) and self-actualization. Maximizing one's potential is relative to the sense of self and values one has. In the culture of the Adeptus Astartes, I imagine the self is often conceived of as an instrument of the Emperor or something similar and the relevant values are generally along the lines of obedience, service and other military-religious notions. Thus, self-actualization for a Space Marine may mean reaching the most profound heights of sacrifice, service, subordination and otherwise following the will of your commanding officers and religious authorities, e.g. Emperor, Primarch, etc.

 

That said, of course, the culture, values and sense of self from one Chapter to the next will vary to some extent. Astral Claws come to mind, of course. Also, this was the socio-psychological terrain of the Horus Heresy -- the conflict between the value of serving the emperor versus serving one's Primarch. This is to give examples of how self-actualization may conflict with the original purpose of service to Emperor/Mankind, though I think examples like the above are far more common.

[Gree]

Gree, absoltue power corrupts absolutely. Its a universal law as constant as gravity. These arn't people who knew incorruptibility like Dorn and Guilliman, they are nobles who have lived a life of decadence and want for nothing. It is impossible to think the High Lords are not corrupt, they are human, and humans are inherently evil and corrupt.

 

.............So in other words you have no actual proof and all you have is simply your assumptions. Am I correct?

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean besides the myraid references to the callousness of the High Lords, the ruthlessness of their actions, and the universal constant that all humans are inherently evil especially ones in positions of absolute power.

 

Then again, feel free to use the Vandire incident as precedent for the High Lords not being immune to political machinations and maneuvering. And also the scores of references about how cruel the rulers of the Imperium are.

 

 

But other than that, your right, Im sure the High Lords are actually rather swell.

 

Also, Gree, youre being naughty, we arn't playing the 'give me exact quotes' game anymore, as the first time someone uses a Ward reference as evidence for an argument people will flip :cuss, puppies will be kicked, mothers will be insulted, and children will have lolli's stolen from them.

[Gree]

I mean besides the myraid references to the callousness of the High Lords, the ruthlessness of their actions,

 

Mind listing more than a handful if they are indeed myraid?

 

and the universal constant that all humans are inherently evil especially ones in positions of absolute power.

 

Gandhi is inherently evil?

 

Then again, feel free to use the Vandire incident as precedent for the High Lords not being immune to political machinations and maneuvering.

 

Then again use Huron Blackheart and the fifty other Astartes renagade chapters on why placing too much power in the hands of one man is a bad idea.

 

And also the scores of references about how cruel the rulers of the Imperium are.

 

Mind listing the scores? And I do expect scores, not just a handful.

 

But other than that, your right, Im sure the High Lords are actually rather swell.

 

I never said such a thing. My point is that no judgement can be made about them when we know so little about them.

 

Also, Gree, youre being naughty, we arn't playing the 'give me exact quotes' game anymore, as the first time someone uses a Ward reference as evidence for an argument people will flip :cuss, puppies will be kicked, mothers will be insulted, and children will have lolli's stolen from them.

 

So in other words you can't actually back up your claims. That's nice to know.

[Billuriye]

Since when 'give me exact quotes' is obsolete ? I thought it was the cornerstone of such discussions.

[Captain Idaho]

If absolute power corrupts absolutely, a reason why the High Lords are corruptable, then surely that is making the case for the splitting of the Legions? It's undeniable Space Marines are corruptably too, as we have precedent in the whole Heresy thing.

 

The myriad Chapters can easily come together to fight as a Legion would in most engagements, as so many GW stories show us. What can't be done any more is bringing enough force to bear to fight as a whole Legion would (100 Chapters would be needed), or in times when multiple Legions needed to combine to defeat enemies (taking much of the Imperium's Marines with them).

 

This essentially provides the Imperium with a better response for the majority of engagments, but the reverse of this is the Imperium can no longer just remove a threat as before (like the Orks of Charadon).

 

For the current Imperium this could be a problem, as the Age of Remption showed the Imperium was unable to both consolidate it's territory and launch crusade after crusade. Forces like Chapters are needed to protect the Imperium, but a strong, separate selection of armed forces are needed to launch more aggressive punitve action against the dirty enemies of Mankind (as a good deffence has offensive capacity).

 

However, whilst it is true the Imperium needs Legions AND Chapters now, that wasn't the case when in the aftermath of the Heresy. Guilliman's changes were entirely appropriate for the time, and proved effective thousands of years after his death. Blaming him for not knowing the unknowable is unfair and a little silly.

 

One thing everyone seems to miss, from both sides of the argument here, is Guilliman is a strategic genius who did what was required at the time. If he was around NOW, he would certainly say "sure the Chapters worked well for a long time. Now I'm going to reinstate some Legions whilst retaining the Chapters".

[Leonaides]

The thing I'd disagree with there Idaho is that if you then went and re-created a few legions, you'd still have the problem of concentrating power... So you'd need a few legions in order to be your mobile task-force, and a few more legions to act as a guarantor agains tthose legions going rogue (on the principle that you've just made those legions to be big enough to squash any localised threat to the imperium - or themselves should they choose not to follow the Imperiums best interests). Whic then means you need more legions to guard the legions, so you may as well not bother with chapters, since they all need to be legion-strength, and then the imperium would get ripped apart if 3 or 4 happened to go rogue at the same time.

[Legatus]

I am not so much talking about the Chapter structure as a am the notion that the reforms forced chapters into being subservient to normal humans. They were created to be super humans led by a demi-god, the idea that one day their would be no demi-gods to lead them was not part of the original plan. When the time came to figure out what to do with several hundred thousand very angry, very deadly warriors Guilliman thought the best thing to do would be to split them up, make them independent from a unified command, and take away their heavy battleships. By making them part of the Adeptus, he put easily corruptible humans in charge of them, which was NEVER part of the Emperor's plan.

If the description in the Collected Visions book is any indication, then the Emperor had never intended for the Primarchs (let alone mere Space Marines) to rule the Imperium. He had created the Coucil of Terra to govern the Imperium in his stead, which enraged some of the Primarchs who felt neglected.

It is the "Imperium of Mankind". Space Marines are bred soldiers. The Imperium does not belong to them.

 

 

The Emperor created the Primarchs to be ultimately and unbreakably loyal to him. Wouldn't you say Horus going rogue with half the Primarchs in his pocket from various pressures was mightily similar. If the institution of the High Lords was allowed to continue existing after that, why wouldn't the Legions?

Because a Council is still the better solution than an autocrat who alone rules the Imperium in the Emperor's stead?

[Marshal Rohr]

I mean besides the myraid references to the callousness of the High Lords, the ruthlessness of their actions,

 

Mind listing more than a handful if they are indeed myraid?

 

Yes. I learned a long time ago it's very hard to convince you of things. And Im moving so all my books are packed. :P

 

and the universal constant that all humans are inherently evil especially ones in positions of absolute power.

 

Gandhi is inherently evil?

 

Gandhi learned selflessness and self control. Most people learn to not be evil. But then again, just look at any civilized society that suffers disater and the rules go out the window. Rampant destruction resisted by those clinging to previous social norms.

 

Then again, feel free to use the Vandire incident as precedent for the High Lords not being immune to political machinations and maneuvering.

 

Then again use Huron Blackheart and the fifty other Astartes renagade chapters on why placing too much power in the hands of one man is a bad idea.

 

Blackheart took that power. Im not saying the Legions should have remained under the command of one person after each Primarch died. But each Legions should have retained its capabilities.

 

Or basically, just increase Chapter numbers to 5-10000 each and give them back battleships and the capability to exist beyond small regions of space. Increase their armored vehicles and air power. Maybe impose rules and restrictions on how many of them are allowed to gather together, not that 1 Chapterx10 would need more people to do many jobs. Let them fight like armies again and not strike forces. I dont think this would have been too radical of a step, and it would have kept the Legions together under shared mutual history. Think how sad it must be to not know your genefather, or share the comraderie of genebrothers from different chapters.

 

What would it be like for an Imperial Fists to realize his Black Templar genebrothers are zealous :cuss heads who are super insular and self absorbed in their own purpose and mission? Or for a Blood Angel to see a Flesh Tearer in the full on throws (is that the right spelling for what I mean?) of the Black Rage.

 

And also the scores of references about how cruel the rulers of the Imperium are.

 

Mind listing the scores? And I do expect scores, not just a handful.

A score is six right ;)

 

But other than that, your right, Im sure the High Lords are actually rather swell.

 

I never said such a thing. My point is that no judgement can be made about them when we know so little about them.

 

Well, given my lack of books, I will point you to which books, since I cant give you direct quotes.

 

Imperial Armor 9 the Badab War: Huron is constantly denied the ability to effectively do his job (which they gave him) by the High Lords as they took the Charnel Guard and moved them somewhere else. Then during the Crusade of Wrath the made the Black Templars quit the war and go help the Ultramarines seek and destroy the remaining Hive Fleets from Behemoth ( :cuss? Right? :P ). Then when he tried to inquire about it he was denied an audience. So he said ' :cuss it' and overstepped what the HLoT saw as being 'right'.

 

3rd, 4th, 5th Edition rulebooks describe the High Lords as being ruthless, the the exact wording escapes me.

 

The references within the Inquisitor books.

 

The references within Epic and BFG.

 

The references in the other Imperial Armor novels.

 

The High Lords do evil for the survival of mankind. If the Ultramarines can consistently do good for the survival of mankind, so can the High Lords.

 

Also, Gree, youre being naughty, we arn't playing the 'give me exact quotes' game anymore, as the first time someone uses a Ward reference as evidence for an argument people will flip :cuss, puppies will be kicked, mothers will be insulted, and children will have lolli's stolen from them.

 

So in other words you can't actually back up your claims. That's nice to know.

 

This is a philosophical discussion on whether Guilliman had the right to reform the Legions and the right of mortal men to command someone they were never intended to command.

 

Can you show me empirical evidence that Nirvana is an achievable state of mind, or Heaven is where good people go when they die? Or in universe, can you show me emperical evidence that the Greater Good is a more beneficial philosophy to growth than Pax Imperialis? Or that the Eldar Paths will keep Slaanesh at bay longer than leeching souls from slaves? This is meant to be a fun philosophical and ultimately fictional discussion, not a competative debate.

 

I am voicing my opinion that based on the typical grimdark actions and problems the High Lords have had they are just as capable of corruption and destructive, toxic leadership as one man in command of the 'Legion' I suggested earlier.

 

 

Maybe I should go ahead and show everyone what the ideal, 40K 'Legion' would be to me, so you can all see where I am coming from. This is more like the old 'Legions' in 3rd and 4th, before the 100,000 man ones we know today.

 

Headquarters:

Legion Commander

Honor Guard

Reclusium

Librarius

 

9 Chapter/Great Company/Battalion/Host/Order/etc:

5 Line Companies, 2 Weapons Companies, 2 Assault Companies, 1 Veteran Company

 

1 Support Chapter/Great Company/Battlaion/Host/Order/etc:

Combat Engineers

Battle Tank Crews

Techmarines

Scouts (new brothers and veterans)

Artillery Units

Non-Astartes Support Personnel

 

Chapter Fleet:

Full access to Imperial Fleet ships

 

Just so you can see what I visualize when I say it.

[Legatus]

This is a philosophical discussion on whether Guilliman had the right to reform the Legions and the right of mortal men to command someone they were never intended to command.

I am not sure what older sources tell about the ultimate plan of the Emperor once the Imperium was complete, but in the Collected Visions book he created the Council of Terra to govern the civil matters of the Imperium, while the Primarchs were his generals and waged his war. IIRC the military is generally seen as subservant to politics. If the Emperor truly never planned to make one of the Primarchs ruler of the Imperium, then after the Crusade the Legions would eventually have been under control of the Council of Terra.