The Legions After

[augustmanifesto]

I am not sure what older sources tell about the ultimate plan of the Emperor once the Imperium was complete, but in the Collected Visions book he created the Council of Terra to govern the civil matters of the Imperium, while the Primarchs were his generals and waged his war. IIRC the military is generally seen as subservant to politics. If the Emperor truly never planned to make one of the Primarchs ruler of the Imperium, then after the Crusade the Legions would eventually have been under control of the Council of Terra.

 

Hmm...IIRC, doesn't one of the first three Horus Heresy books make insturmental use of the fact that such a council was created after Ullanor, before the Horus Heresy began? emphasis on "IIRC."

[Walter Payton]

I would normally weigh in, but this is fun to watch.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

The council of terror was indeed after Horus was appointed warmaster, leaving his capable sons in charge to finish of the universe the emperor would ultimately leave the stable state of mankind to be taxed, taxed and taxed, and then the tax to be taxed then tax that just for the sakee of taxing then tax those taxs to tidy up with a nice big old super tax at the end (Like modern day england) if only he had told them of his plans to wage war on the warp then to travel into other galaxies and fight forever as is there role, they may not of hated the taxing taxers so much.

[Dinks]

This is a philosophical discussion on whether Guilliman had the right to reform the Legions and the right of mortal men to command someone they were never intended to command.

I am not sure what older sources tell about the ultimate plan of the Emperor once the Imperium was complete, but in the Collected Visions book he created the Council of Terra to govern the civil matters of the Imperium, while the Primarchs were his generals and waged his war. IIRC the military is generally seen as subservant to politics. If the Emperor truly never planned to make one of the Primarchs ruler of the Imperium, then after the Crusade the Legions would eventually have been under control of the Council of Terra.

I wish you wouldn't keep bringing up Collected Visions especially according to A D-B, everything in that book is going out the window, scrapped and replaced with new as GW doesn't like what is in it.

 

But reading about what you said that military is generally seen as subservient to politics is complete tosh, nor would the Astartes be under the control of the Council.

[Marshal Rohr]

Since when 'give me exact quotes' is obsolete ? I thought it was the cornerstone of such discussions.

 

Since... there are really no quotes covering this current topic. All we know is what happened. Not what could've happened or IF it should've happened.

 

Feel free to join in though. Im sure we could use the Space Wolves opinions on all this, since we all know how much they appreciate begin under the command of the High Lord :)

 

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If absolute power corrupts absolutely, a reason why the High Lords are corruptable, then surely that is making the case for the splitting of the Legions? It's undeniable Space Marines are corruptably too, as we have precedent in the whole Heresy thing.

 

Yes, but smaller 'Legions' (see more above post) would retain the capabilities of armies without the ineffectiveness of the 1000 man limit and no fleet. If space marines are warriors and soldiers they should fight as armies, not strike forces. The Imperium need to have its swords back, not scalpels.

 

The myriad Chapters can easily come together to fight as a Legion would in most engagements, as so many GW stories show us. What can't be done any more is bringing enough force to bear to fight as a whole Legion would (100 Chapters would be needed), or in times when multiple Legions needed to combine to defeat enemies (taking much of the Imperium's Marines with them).

 

Again, I point you to petty rivalries and outright distrust between some chapters. Other are highly insular and hardheaded. Others are brutal or uncontrolable. Legions would contain this, so you'd have less diversity and randomness.

 

This essentially provides the Imperium with a better response for the majority of engagments, but the reverse of this is the Imperium can no longer just remove a threat as before (like the Orks of Charadon).

 

Chapters were to extreme a measure. It is possible to have both with out going to far one way or the other.

 

For the current Imperium this could be a problem, as the Age of Remption showed the Imperium was unable to both consolidate it's territory and launch crusade after crusade. Forces like Chapters are needed to protect the Imperium, but a strong, separate selection of armed forces are needed to launch more aggressive punitve action against the dirty enemies of Mankind (as a good deffence has offensive capacity).

 

The Imperium couldn't secure its territory FROM ITSELF. It did alright against keeping everyone else out...

 

However, whilst it is true the Imperium needs Legions AND Chapters now, that wasn't the case when in the aftermath of the Heresy. Guilliman's changes were entirely appropriate for the time, and proved effective thousands of years after his death. Blaming him for not knowing the unknowable is unfair and a little silly.

 

Again, Guilliman was not on a level above his peers, nor was he first among equals. He TOOK that job. He never had any right to be in charge of any other Primarch.

 

One thing everyone seems to miss, from both sides of the argument here, is Guilliman is a strategic genius who did what was required at the time. If he was around NOW, he would certainly say "sure the Chapters worked well for a long time. Now I'm going to reinstate some Legions whilst retaining the Chapters".

 

If he hadn't assumed total control of the Imperium after the High Lords almost wrecked it several times. He definitely would've stepped in every time they screwed everything up and had to reform it. Shoot, we might even have a fully functioning administrative machine had he jumped in and tweaked the system after every civil war.

 

See, Guilliman can walk in and tell the High Lords what to do, because they are mortals, and Guilliman was created to lord over them and rule them. In what capacity we will never know, but what we do know is the Primarchs have de facto command over normal humans, they were not built to serve mankind. The High Lords dont get to command a son of the Emperor they have to listen to what he says.

 

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The thing I'd disagree with there Idaho is that if you then went and re-created a few legions, you'd still have the problem of concentrating power... So you'd need a few legions in order to be your mobile task-force, and a few more legions to act as a guarantor agains tthose legions going rogue (on the principle that you've just made those legions to be big enough to squash any localised threat to the imperium - or themselves should they choose not to follow the Imperiums best interests). Whic then means you need more legions to guard the legions, so you may as well not bother with chapters, since they all need to be legion-strength, and then the imperium would get ripped apart if 3 or 4 happened to go rogue at the same time.

 

You guys have a serious lack of faith in Space Marines. Only 4 have been declared excommunicate traitoris as of 765.M41. 16 Were lost to other circumstances. If all those 16 turned traitor thats what? 20 Chapters in 9765 years?

 

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I am not so much talking about the Chapter structure as a am the notion that the reforms forced chapters into being subservient to normal humans. They were created to be super humans led by a demi-god, the idea that one day their would be no demi-gods to lead them was not part of the original plan. When the time came to figure out what to do with several hundred thousand very angry, very deadly warriors Guilliman thought the best thing to do would be to split them up, make them independent from a unified command, and take away their heavy battleships. By making them part of the Adeptus, he put easily corruptible humans in charge of them, which was NEVER part of the Emperor's plan.

If the description in the Collected Visions book is any indication, then the Emperor had never intended for the Primarchs (let alone mere Space Marines) to rule the Imperium. He had created the Coucil of Terra to govern the Imperium in his stead, which enraged some of the Primarchs who felt neglected.

It is the "Imperium of Mankind". Space Marines are bred soldiers. The Imperium does not belong to them.

 

Govern the Imperium, not the space marines. The space marines belong to themselves. In the same way the President can't ask Angels to kill terrorists, the High Lord cant tell Angels to divide up and do stuff they need done. Thay can ask/pray and hope it happens.

 

 

The Emperor created the Primarchs to be ultimately and unbreakably loyal to him. Wouldn't you say Horus going rogue with half the Primarchs in his pocket from various pressures was mightily similar. If the institution of the High Lords was allowed to continue existing after that, why wouldn't the Legions?

Because a Council is still the better solution than an autocrat who alone rules the Imperium in the Emperor's stead?

 

Then why didnt the Primarchs form their own separate council. High Lords of the Astartes. Or Senatorum Astartes?

[Marshal Rohr]

This is a philosophical discussion on whether Guilliman had the right to reform the Legions and the right of mortal men to command someone they were never intended to command.

I am not sure what older sources tell about the ultimate plan of the Emperor once the Imperium was complete, but in the Collected Visions book he created the Council of Terra to govern the civil matters of the Imperium, while the Primarchs were his generals and waged his war. IIRC the military is generally seen as subservant to politics. If the Emperor truly never planned to make one of the Primarchs ruler of the Imperium, then after the Crusade the Legions would eventually have been under control of the Council of Terra.

 

Well, control of the army was control of power in ancient rome... the template for the Imperium :D

 

I am beginning to think you have an obsession with heirarchy and authority :)

 

 

This is a philosophical discussion on whether Guilliman had the right to reform the Legions and the right of mortal men to command someone they were never intended to command.

I am not sure what older sources tell about the ultimate plan of the Emperor once the Imperium was complete, but in the Collected Visions book he created the Council of Terra to govern the civil matters of the Imperium, while the Primarchs were his generals and waged his war. IIRC the military is generally seen as subservant to politics. If the Emperor truly never planned to make one of the Primarchs ruler of the Imperium, then after the Crusade the Legions would eventually have been under control of the Council of Terra.

I wish you wouldn't keep bringing up Collected Visions especially according to A D-B, everything in that book is going out the window, scrapped and replaced with new as GW doesn't like what is in it.

 

But reading about what you said that military is generally seen as subservient to politics is complete tosh, nor would the Astartes be under the control of the Council.

 

I dont know if its ALL going out the window, but the authors have been using it as somewhat of a guideline.

 

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I just fell in love with the idea of an Astartes Senate that holds power in the Adeptus Terra as the legislative body of Space Marine Chapters. They meet every 250 years, while a council of the 9 Primogenitor Chapter Masters run the proceedings. Each Chapter sends its Master or a senior captain to the session. They debate the codex regulations and restrictions and alter codex law as necessary.

 

Oh, yes. I can see it now.

 

Im a genius.

[calgar101]

I'm starting to agree with you Marshall on the legion thing. This is how I'd have the legions;

 

Re-name chapters to Legions.

Remove the 1000 limit and instead place a 10,000 limit.

Legions are to look to their own recruiting and to start off with 1000 Astartes, it is up to them to get bigger with no out side help.

Increase their fleet sizes but use the same ships as they do now so they cannot impose on the fleets of the navy or threaten them too much.

 

Basically bigger chapters who if they wish to increase above the 1000 mark are to do it themselves. To me this would act as a way to balance the power and means the legions could not increase their power over night. Also the Astartes legions independent nature, cultural and historical differences would act as another balance check for them gathering together in one place too log; this would stop legions merging together unless it was a more than usual serious threat AKA Black Crusade.

 

Obviously the galaxy is far different today then during the Scouring and I think the implementation of Marshall proposals would work in favour of the Imperium. Chapters/Legions you'll always get corruption.

[Captain Idaho]

The thing I'd disagree with there Idaho is that if you then went and re-created a few legions, you'd still have the problem of concentrating power... So you'd need a few legions in order to be your mobile task-force, and a few more legions to act as a guarantor agains tthose legions going rogue (on the principle that you've just made those legions to be big enough to squash any localised threat to the imperium - or themselves should they choose not to follow the Imperiums best interests). Whic then means you need more legions to guard the legions, so you may as well not bother with chapters, since they all need to be legion-strength, and then the imperium would get ripped apart if 3 or 4 happened to go rogue at the same time.

 

Yeah there would be the problem of creating super-powers out of the Space Marines, but I had an idea!

 

First, there are only going to be 9 Legions, the 1st Founding if you will. Their successors retain Chapter autonomy. Going by Pre-Heresy numbers there would be less Legionaires than total Chapter Marines. The Chapters would therefore act as counter-foil to the power of the new Legions.

 

Secondly, each Legion would be autonomous to each other (obviously), but with no Warmaster to exert influence. This means if one went bad, the others, plus the Chapters, would "go get 'em".

 

Thirdly, the Legions likely couldn't operate at the same sizes as before. Without direct Gene-source from a Primarch and the geneseed degradation we have in several Chapters (Blood Angels and Raven Guard springs to mind, but maybe the Space Wolves? Not sure.) it is likely none of the new Legions could operate at the old sizes. Again this lessens their numbers and therefore threat.

 

So really I can see how fitting it into the 40K fiction would work, if implemented logically.

[augustmanifesto]

So really I can see how fitting it into the 40K fiction would work, if implemented logically.

 

"Implimented logically" has little reproductive fitness in a civilization governed by dogmatism, especially when what is being proposed for "logical implementation" is in violation of one of the basic components of one of the basic dogmas of that civilization, in this case the limit on the size of Space Marine Chapters prescribed in the Codex Astartes ;)

[calgar101]

Although chapters/legions to over come the slow process could have Space Marine farms. Turn a planet into a massive vat factory for growing gene-seed and marines.. ;)

[Gree]

I mean besides the myraid references to the callousness of the High Lords, the ruthlessness of their actions,

 

Mind listing more than a handful if they are indeed myraid?

 

Yes. I learned a long time ago it's very hard to convince you of things. And Im moving so all my books are packed. :P

 

Then if you can't back up your arguments don't make them at all.

 

Gandhi learned selflessness and self control. Most people learn to not be evil. But then again, just look at any civilized society that suffers disater and the rules go out the window. Rampant destruction resisted by those clinging to previous social norms.

 

No, I'd say I have to disagree with your assumption that humans are inherantly evil. Look at me, I'm not evil.

 

Or basically, just increase Chapter numbers to 5-10000 each and give them back battleships and the capability to exist beyond small regions of space. Increase their armored vehicles and air power. Maybe impose rules and restrictions on how many of them are allowed to gather together, not that 1 Chapterx10 would need more people to do many jobs. Let them fight like armies again and not strike forces. I dont think this would have been too radical of a step, and it would have kept the Legions together under shared mutual history. Think how sad it must be to not know your genefather, or share the comraderie of genebrothers from different chapters.

 

They would end up being split into small regions of space anyway. The Imperium would have been forced into a defensive posture anyway and the chapters would have needed to cover more ground in that case. Giving them back their battleships and support is simply not needed as such things can be provided by the relevant branches of the Imperial Navy.

 

Oh, and appearantly you have chapters that do share in comraderie of other chapters. Read Deathwatch: Rites of Battle.

 

Imperial Armor 9 the Badab War: Huron is constantly denied the ability to effectively do his job (which they gave him) by the High Lords as they took the Charnel Guard and moved them somewhere else.

 

Because maybe the Charnel Guard where needed somewhere else? We don't know if that's a nessecarily bad descision.

 

Then during the Crusade of Wrath the made the Black Templars quit the war and go help the Ultramarines seek and destroy the remaining Hive Fleets from Behemoth ( ;)? Right? ^_^ ).

 

How exactly was that evil?

 

Then when he tried to inquire about it he was denied an audience. So he said ' :cuss it' and overstepped what the HLoT saw as being 'right'.

 

Huron and his Astral Claws were also noted to be arrogant and they held themselves above the humans they ruled. He's not exactly what I'd call innocent at all.

 

3rd, 4th, 5th Edition rulebooks describe the High Lords as being ruthless, the the exact wording escapes me.

 

This is 40k, being ruthless is a virtue. Plus so is everybody else in the setting.

 

The references within the Inquisitor books.

 

The references within Epic and BFG.

 

The references in the other Imperial Armor novels.

 

Holy Vagueness Batman!

 

The High Lords do evil for the survival of mankind. If the Ultramarines can consistently do good for the survival of mankind, so can the High Lords.

 

....So you are saying the High Lords are good? Okay, thanks for agreeing with me.

 

Can you show me empirical evidence that Nirvana is an achievable state of mind, or Heaven is where good people go when they die? Or in universe, can you show me emperical evidence that the Greater Good is a more beneficial philosophy to growth than Pax Imperialis? Or that the Eldar Paths will keep Slaanesh at bay longer than leeching souls from slaves? This is meant to be a fun philosophical and ultimately fictional discussion, not a competative debate.

 

I don't see how any of that is applicable when you've done such a poor job at backing up your arguments. (No offense)

 

If you don't have quotes or sources then don't make said argument. If you make a statement, you better be sure you can back up a statement when I refute it.

 

I am voicing my opinion that based on the typical grimdark actions and problems the High Lords have had they are just as capable of corruption and destructive, toxic leadership as one man in command of the 'Legion' I suggested earlier.

 

Voicing your opinion is fine and dandy. I am also allowed to tear it apart when I see flaws in your reasoning.

 

See, Guilliman can walk in and tell the High Lords what to do, because they are mortals, and Guilliman was created to lord over them and rule them. In what capacity we will never know, but what we do know is the Primarchs have de facto command over normal humans, they were not built to serve mankind. The High Lords dont get to command a son of the Emperor they have to listen to what he says.

 

Then Horus and his pals should have had no problem with the Council of Terra's taxes-ohwaitaminute.

 

Again, Guilliman was not on a level above his peers, nor was he first among equals. He TOOK that job. He never had any right to be in charge of any other Primarch.

 

Erebus stated that Guilliman has the Emperor's soul and ideals. Going against Guilliman is the same as going against the Emperor. :P

 

Prove me wrong.

 

You guys have a serious lack of faith in Space Marines. Only 4 have been declared excommunicate traitoris as of 765.M41. 16 Were lost to other circumstances. If all those 16 turned traitor thats what? 20 Chapters in 9765 years?

 

Codex Chaos lists 50 chapters if I recall correctly.

[Legatus]

See, Guilliman can walk in and tell the High Lords what to do, because they are mortals, and Guilliman was created to lord over them and rule them. In what capacity we will never know, but what we do know is the Primarchs have de facto command over normal humans, they were not built to serve mankind. The High Lords dont get to command a son of the Emperor they have to listen to what he says.

The way I see it, the Emperor intended to unite mankind. And to do that he created genetically enhanced warriors. He did not create those warriors to be the new masters of the galaxy, he created them so they would allow him to conquer all the human worlds, to achieve his original goal. Space Marines are a means to an end. That end is the rule of mankind.

 

 

Govern the Imperium, not the space marines. The space marines belong to themselves. In the same way the President can't ask Angels to kill terrorists, the High Lord cant tell Angels to divide up and do stuff they need done. Thay can ask/pray and hope it happens.

The Space Marines were created for the sole purpose to fight for mankind. Because of that purpose they are subservant to the needs of mankind.

 

 

Then why didnt the Primarchs form their own separate council. High Lords of the Astartes. Or Senatorum Astartes?

Because it is their purpose to fight, not to rule over mankind.

 

 

The Space Marines are like sentient war robots who were created to fight. That is their purpose and what they were made for. They were not created to be the new masters of mankind.

 

 

Edit:

I'm starting to agree with you Marshall on the legion thing. This is how I'd have the legions;

 

Re-name chapters to Legions.

Remove the 1000 limit and instead place a 10,000 limit.

Legions are to look to their own recruiting and to start off with 1000 Astartes, it is up to them to get bigger with no out side help.

Increase their fleet sizes but use the same ships as they do now so they cannot impose on the fleets of the navy or threaten them too much.

The problem is that the background of the 1,000 strong Chapters comes from a time when the Legions were supposed to be about 10,000 strong. Obviously everything made much more sense back then. But "sense" was not the priority of the Black Library.

[calgar101]

Umm 20 legions of 10,000 marines conquering the galaxy? Even them being Space Marines.. The new figures make much more sense.

[Legatus]

Umm 20 legions of 10,000 marines conquering the galaxy? Even them being Space Marines.. The new figures make much more sense.

Not if 300 White Panthers can conquer a well defended world in two weeks.

 

Edit: Oops.

[Gree]

Umm 20 legions of 10,000 marines conquering the galaxy? Even them being Space Marines.. The new figures make much more sense.

Not if 300 Black Panthers can conquer a well defended world in two weeks.

 

First of all I had this hilarous mental image of the Black Panther party conquering a world. The chapter name is White Panthers BTW.

 

And no, I would hardly rate Kethra as well defended, especially when three companies would be required for a single world such as that.

 

And then you have worlds like Shrike which required no less than 3 Legions working together to bring down after some time.

[calgar101]

Yeah even still conquering the galaxy is going to need more than 200,000 Astartes. If you take 200,000 marines split up into groups of 300 you get 666.66, so we will call it 667. Each group of 300 marines conquers a world every 2 weeks. To conquer the 1million or so worlds the Imperium is made up of it would take more than the 200 years the Great Crusade lasted.. Yeah I'm not going to get drawn in to a debate but the more recent and larger legion numbers make much more sense.

 

if you're referring to the story in the beginning of the 3rd ed codex wasn't it 1 company?

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't have my computer now, so I can't quote anything since I'm on my phone. So these are broad actress's to everyone.

 

Gree, I just don't agree that the High Lords arnt politically motivated power mongers. But that's my 40k and how I see it. Since there is no right or wrong to how any of us see it, my argument isn't that the High Lords are mad men intent on ruining the Imperium. My argument is that of the space marines were forced into having heavy restrictions on them for the Heresy, the High Lords should also have been reciprocally changed when their institution failed as well. And you are TOO evil, because you keep kicking over my nice sandcastle!!!!! ;)

 

 

Legatus, I am not saying marines should rule mankind. They should fight for it. The manner in which they fight for it was not up to the High Lords. If the Emperors goal was to create the High Lords to rule the Imperium. That's all well and good. But they do not get to rule the space marines, as they should've been ruled by Primarchs.

 

I like my Senatorum Astartes idea so much I'm making it M2C canon. Since the Primarchs are gone now, they should have an analogue to the High Lords to ensure they are fairly represented. Similar to how the House of Representatives and the Senate are part of the same branch.

 

Can you tell I'm an American with all this whining of representation in government ^_^

[Gree]

Gree, I just don't agree that the High Lords arnt politically motivated power mongers. But that's my 40k and how I see it.

 

That's nice, but unless you can back that up don't use it in an argument.

 

My argument is that of the space marines were forced into having heavy restrictions on them for the Heresy, the High Lords should also have been reciprocally changed when their institution failed as well.

 

We do know their was restrictions on the goverment after Vandire, so things were changed to some extent.

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought the Ecclesiarchy changed?

 

And my argument is strictly speculative and not based in canon or uncanon. It's simply how I see it. If you want to know why I see it that way it's because of those references and Imperial Armor portions.

 

My overarching point is that Guilliman had no right for his reforms. And that a legion style structure would be better. Even if that structure had to change.

 

I'd also like to point out if the Astral Claws had never been left to develop on their own, they would not have viewed humans as slaves, since no loyalist legion did. Except maybe the Iron Hands.

 

 

Legatus, does that mean you agree if legion sizes changed chapter sizes should as well!?!?

[Legatus]

Yeah even still conquering the galaxy is going to need more than 200,000 Astartes. If you take 200,000 marines split up into groups of 300 you get 666.66, so we will call it 667. Each group of 300 marines conquers a world every 2 weeks. To conquer the 1million or so worlds the Imperium is made up of it would take more than the 200 years the Great Crusade lasted..

666 battle groups, each conquering one world per two weeks for 200 years would result in over three million worlds. Just saying... ;)

 

 

My argument is that of the space marines were forced into having heavy restrictions on them for the Heresy, the High Lords should also have been reciprocally changed when their institution failed as well.

Well, the Ecclesiarchy was reformed after the Vandire incident, restricting the influence one individual can have over the Imperial church. And the Ordo Hereticus was formed as a result of the Vandire incident as well. So while the 12 member council was kept, new safety measures were indeed implemented.

 

 

Legatus, I am not saying marines should rule mankind. They should fight for it. The manner in which they fight for it was not up to the High Lords. If the Emperors goal was to create the High Lords to rule the Imperium. That's all well and good. But they do not get to rule the space marines, as they should've been ruled by Primarchs.

The Space Marine Legions had just almost murdered mankind, including mortally wounding the Emperor. I think it is understandable that mankind is a bit sceptical about Space Marine Legions now.

 

 

 

Edit:

Legatus, does that mean you agree if legion sizes changed chapter sizes should as well!?!?

No, I maintain that changing the Legion sizes was a stupid decision.

[Gree]

I thought the Ecclesiarchy changed?

 

They have a representitive on the High Lords, same difference.

 

And my argument is strictly speculative and not based in canon or uncanon. It's simply how I see it. If you want to know why I see it that way it's because of those references and Imperial Armor portions.

 

Which you have no provided very good evidence forthwith.

 

My overarching point is that Guilliman had no right for his reforms. And that a legion style structure would be better. Even if that structure had to change.

 

Which I have taken the liberty of taking apart.

 

I'd also like to point out if the Astral Claws had never been left to develop on their own, they would not have viewed humans as slaves, since no loyalist legion did. Except maybe the Iron Hands.

 

They would have been left on their own, regardless of other factors, the stategic nessecities of the Imperium would have forced them into local defense anyway.

[Marshal Rohr]

You do have a point. Alpharius was the last found and his was the 670th Expedition....

 

I'd crap a brick if GW took chapter strength from 1000 to 10000 though. It would mean the Templars must also grow by 6x instead making them 60,000!

 

Muahahaha

 

Gree you havnt taken apart my 'legion' though. You have explained why you disagree.

[Gree]

Gree you havnt taken apart my 'legion' though. You have explained why you disagree.

 

I have done so numerous times. Such a thing is simply not needed.

[Legatus]

I'd crap a brick if GW took chapter strength from 1000 to 10000 though. It would mean the Templars must also grow by 6x instead making them 60,000!

 

Muahahaha

They might do that for 6th Edition, where Apocalypse becomes the standard format. Players are then expected to play a "company" of 1,000 Marines, or at least half such a company, per battle.

[Marshal Rohr]

You havnt mentioned anything about it's combat effectiveness.