Tele-Homer, Librarian, The Summoning, and Warp Stabilization

[amuro_ray]

Hi all,

 

Ok here's the case, a Land Raider with Warp Stabilization Field, summoned by a librarian's The Summoning psychic power equipped with a teleport homer, do they scatter or not?

 

Thanks in advance

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes.

 

The TH doesn't work with The Summoning.

[bl00d bath76]

Where does it say this. I thought the whole point of the librarian being able to take one was to utilize it with summoning. Where in the rules does it say you cannot use it?

[Gentlemanloser]

The Teleport Homer rules specifically state what it can be used with.

 

The Summoning isn't one of them.

 

Edit: I agree it's silly, and quite probably an oversight. But until it's correct, The Summoning doesn't work with a Teleport Homer.

[Tankred]

I don´t think that it is an oversight, nor a silly one.

 

Why? The Libby says: "Little Raider come to me" and makes some mojo. The teleport homer is just a strong radio signal, that a teleport capable ship can target so that teleported units won´t scatter.

[bl00d bath76]

You are incorrect there. I have the book in front of me right now:

 

'Note that the teleport hommer only works for units that are teleporting. not by other means'

 

This assumes that other units can use it as well as those specified, otherwise why would this be included? That means that any teleporting unit can use it. And summoning can be counted as teleporting. This stops you using it for storm ravens and the like. Pity GW dont make these clearer as i have had many opponents who have gone of in a strop when i use my teleport homer just how GW intended us to use it -.-

[Gentlemanloser]

No, I'm not wrong.

 

Please reread the whole entry.

 

Units being moved by "The Summoning" are not teleporting. They are being moved by a Psychic Power.

 

The TH does not (currently, by RAW) work with The Summoning.

 

I don´t think that it is an oversight, nor a silly one.

 

Why? The Libby says: "Little Raider come to me" and makes some mojo. The teleport homer is just a strong radio signal, that a teleport capable ship can target so that teleported units won´t scatter.

 

Why fit out a LR for The Summoning when it can scatter easily on to you, and suffer a mishap?

[bl00d bath76]

No there is not a definition of 'teleporting'. Fluff wise it is teleporting and as there is no definition this is as close as we can get. Moreover like when you are interpreting the bible you have to think about the intention of the writers. In this case it is obvious that the teleport homer was given to the librarian and no other characters because of the summoning power. Why would they have included it if it was not for this purpose? Its clear that this is what GW intended and thanks to them not checking the rules the ruling is unclear. The reason the rules are not clear is because they try to close loopholes and in doing so open new ones up.

 

The writers think. Well teleport homers help deepstriking units not scatering so they give a homer to a librarian without looking thoroughly at the wording.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, I feel that was the *obvious* intent.

 

Unfortuneatly, like many other things, GW fubled the rules.

 

No. The Summoning *Does Not* work with a Teleport Homer. You cannot find a rule anywhere in the BRB or the Codex to support this.

 

Deep Strike is the rule, Teleporting is a subsection of this rule, that is mostly fluff. Minis in Terminator Armour have the Deep Strike rule. Under thier wargear it mentions this is by Teleporting. Storm Ravens have the Deep Strike rule, but no mention of *how* they deploy with it.

 

As the TH doesn't specify it works with Storm Ravens (unlike Strikes, who otherwise wouldn't have been able to use a TH either), the Storm Raven doesn't work with a TH.

 

The Summoning places units using the Deep Strike rules. It doesn't (like the Storm Raven) specify this is by Teleporting. And the TH also doesn't specify (unlike Strikes) that it works with The Summoning.

 

So it doesn't.

 

You might *like* it to, and think it should work, but thems the rules.

 

Fluff wise it is teleporting

 

That's a nice *opinion*.

 

Rules wise, The Summoning uses the Deep Strike rules. Just like a Storm Raven or Jump Infantry.

[bl00d bath76]

Now if GW would be so kind as to FAQ this. They answered 4 summoning questions yet missed this one out. -.-

[thade]

Really?

 

When the Summoning goes off and a unit leaves the table top then appears again...they have a name for this magic.

 

It's called "teleporting".

 

Given how the Summoning allows you to place a unit within 6" of the Librarian and average scatter distance is 7", it's a tremendous risk to use the power un-aided. Servo-skulls only do so much. I would be shocked if the teleport homer on the Librarian was not intended for the Summoning; otherwise a Libby is a pretty weird place for one of the two ways to get teleport homers.

 

I understand some of you play games where the rule sets are clear and unambiguous; I sympathize. Things like this are why a unit of Psyker henchmen does not boost the Culexus one per model. It's so obvious, so accepted, for so many years, they neglected to make a point of it.

 

It totally works. Get down with it.

[Gentlemanloser]

It could open a portal to the Warp. It could colapse space and time between the two locations.

 

Whatever.

 

(Again I agree it *should* be classed as Teleporting, and work with the TH)

 

But the rules don't support the The Summoning is 'Teleporting', or the same sort of Teleporting that a TH works with.

 

RAW, TH doesn't work with The Summoning.

 

House rule however you want.

 

/shrug

 

(They could have given the Libby a Locator Beacon instead. Fail rule is fail)

 

Things like this are why a unit of Psyker henchmen does not boost the Culexus one per model. It's so obvious, so accepted, for so many years, they neglected to make a point of it.

 

And that, is the epitome of bad design...

[Morollan]

Sadly, "Well it's obvious innit" is not a convincing argument when faced with rules lawyers.

[Gentlemanloser]

I like that actually following the printed rules of the game becomes 'rule lawering'...

[itsuperslug]

going by RAW the teleport homer only works for troops that arrive by DS, e.g strike squads, terminators etc.

 

The teleport homer does not effect any other DS'ing

 

That is why codex marines have to use a locator beacon, it helps with all DS'ing, not just teleporting.

 

GK's have servo skulls which decrease any DS'ing within 12" of them

[Morollan]

I like that actually following the printed rules of the game becomes 'rule lawering'...

 

That wasn't directed at you. or even this particular issue. It was more of a general comment on the fact that topics in this forum will generally require a more specific, factual response.

[Gentlemanloser]

:tu:

 

Well, that becuase we don't know each others house rules, and the only common ground we have to play and discuss with each other is the RAW.

[thade]

Sadly, "Well it's obvious innit" is not a convincing argument when faced with rules lawyers.

This is sad and ironic as it's more or less the kind of answer you get whenever you call the GW guys (at least, back when they used to answer). They leave far too much to interpretation as they 1. trust we're both an intelligent and long-playing audience and 2. won't go overboard.

 

When space marines enter the warp and exit a short distance away, it's called teleporting; they've called it teleporting since like the 80s, hence them not spelling it out. Ironically, the writing of the Summoning seems to be intended to be unambiguous, but fails to mention teleporting. Does this mean it is not actually teleporting? No.

 

There are two typical types of Deep Strike. Teleport and Falling Out of the Sky. The first one is the one assumed when Deep Strike is used; that's the annoying part. As I recall, reading the DS rules in the BRB, they almost seem to imply that teleporting is what's happening. Falling Out of the Sky is something Jump Infantry can do, and that's mentioned in the BRB (as they're a core infantry type, they had to mention it there). Drop Pods are neither Jump Infantry, nor teleporting. They arrive via Deep Strike, and we're left to assume that they are Falling Out of the Sky. It's fine, as they arrive "via Deep Strike" and the only time this would be an issue is with teleport homers vs locator beacons, which is - for those limited purposes - thankfully clear.

 

The Callidus Deep Strikes but is neither Teleporting nor Falling Out of the Sky. She's actually using some weird drugs to mimic a member of one of the enemy units, then revealing herself and cutting them with her C'tan Phase Blade. So much of this is implied that it's ridiculous; if you didn't know what the Callidus was before this new Dex came out, you'd have only guesses to go on. Fortunately, the relevant wording is pretty clear; she's Deep Striking, and the fact that her style of DS is an exception to the norm isn't a big deal...she doesn't scatter anyway, so who cares how it interacts with homers/beacons?

 

I understand that "arrives via Deep Strike" and "Teleport" may not be the same in your mind, but consider how? If it were an exception (like "falls out of the sky" or "was there all along") wouldn't it have been pointed out?

 

Eventually each of you, as you play, will come to determine that pure, unbridled RAW is an absolute fail in this game; they wrote the rules for a fun and friendly game, not a hyper-competitive one. The fact that much of the game (including their sanctioned tournaments) are in fact competitive hasn't changed the way they write the rules; that's frustrating only in that it means we can't be lazy. We can't trust RAW alone; eventually you have to ask "what the hell did they mean here?" They leave a lot of stuff out. I think we can agree that a unit of 12 Psyker Henchmen does not boost a Culexus to +12 assault shots; previously in the OR we agreed - despite a very weird RAW context - that a Jump Infantry character could not arrive via Deep Strike attached to a unit of Terminators; why not this, which is something far more simple?

 

I was a pretty hardcore RAW-lawyer-type when I got here, but having been countered so many times by "since the 80s" and having come across some ludicrous loopholes, I've changed my tune.

[Doomaflatchi]

I have no personal problem with this idea of "rules-lawyering" in and of itself, but I am of the opinion that it has one - and only one - place in this game: when people from different groups come together to play and need something they can both agree on simply. If you're part of a regular gaming group, The Most Important Rule places the onus on you to determine what reading of the rules provides the most fun for your entire group, and then use that, no matter what the book actually says.

 

I understand that, by RAW, Teleport Homers do NOT work on The Summoning. However, in my gaming group, we have agreed that they do, since otherwise the Teleport Homer as an option for the Librarian makes little sense. I think it's important that we, as a community, have a consensus of what RAW is in these situations, but we should not feel inherently beholden to actually play it that way.

[thade]

I actually don't agree with that RAW interpretation, in that Teleporting is so fundamental a thing to this game that it basically is RAW, neglected or no.

 

So while I disagree with your premises, I not only agree with your conclusions...but I also give them context support. <3

 

This stuff happens all the time; like Dawn of War and Land Raiders...how RAW you have to put the LR on the table side ways (as it is longer than 6" and will have a bit of its butt hanging off otherwise). Rules Lawyers that would insist your LR is dead if it deploys in this way are, well, not the kind of people that are enjoyable to game against...if you take my meaning.

[Gentlemanloser]

How do Storm Ravens Deep Strike?

 

You assert they fall out of the sky. But this isn't mentioned anywhere. It could be (like the fluff for the old Deathwatch kill team) be Grav Chute. It could be low altitude drop from a Thunderhawk.

 

Fluff is fluff. And should never influence decisions on rules.

 

Deep Strike (as you agree with the Cally) covers much more than just 'Teleport' or 'Fall out of the sky'. Some is explained, most isn't. How do Legion of the Damned arrive by Deep Strike? How does Marbo? And on and on...

 

If Teleporting *wasn't* so fundamental, then 'nilla space marines would never have needed the distinction between Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons.

 

Teleporting is a specific delivery method. And referenced as such. Some things Teleport, and are specifically mentioned as such. Some things work with Teleporting, and are specifically mentioned as such.

 

That's RAW.

 

The Summoning isn't. And a TH doesn't specify it works with it (unlike Strike, which sets the precedent).

 

There is no position to disagree with this, from a RAW or lack of RAW standpoint.

 

Unless you're willing to accept that a TH functions for all forms of Deep Strike, and as such you'll have to just ignore it's whole wargear entry.

 

But then you can play your version of 40K, and I'll play the official one. :pinch:

[Something Wycked]

going by RAW the teleport homer only works for troops that arrive by DS, e.g strike squads, terminators etc.

 

The teleport homer does not effect any other DS'ing

 

That is why codex marines have to use a locator beacon, it helps with all DS'ing, not just teleporting.

This man has got it right, but to add more detail:

 

The TH specifies it works for Strikes, models wearing Terminator armor and (this whole last part is IIRC) Interceptors, when they arrive from reserves via Deep Strike.

 

Therefore it would never work for any other unit whether The Summoning is ruled as a Teleport move or not.

 

As Gentleman says, Teleporting is a subset of Deep Strike. It happens when the unit arrives from Reserves, not on the table top.

[jeffersonian000]

Except that per the FAQ, if a Summoned unit mishaps and is placed back in reserve, that unit will be DS'ing from reserves on a follow turn. Which means that if its a Striker, Terminator, or Interceptor unit, it should be able to use the TH per this line of reason. Vehicles (whether upgrade for Summoning or not), as well as NDK's, still cannot benefit from a TH as they are specifically excluded from list of effected units.

 

I'll freely admit that this thread has changed my mind on whether or not Summoned units count as teleporting, as it does seem clear that The Summoning is imply teleportation. TH, however, still only effects a small selection of models in the game, regardless of Summoning.

 

SJ

[thade]

Officially they're teleporting, as they have been since the 80s. Officially the Culexus gains a +1 shot per Psyker in range...Psyker henchmen filled transports. Officially LRs and other Super Heavies auto-die in Dawn of War.

 

Officially the goal of the game is to have fun...which means sometimes taking a step back from RAW and realizing how few bases it covers. When you get that, well...I'd be happy to revisit this.

[Something Wycked]

Except that per the FAQ, if a Summoned unit mishaps and is placed back in reserve, that unit will be DS'ing from reserves on a follow turn. Which means that if its a Striker, Terminator, or Interceptor unit, it should be able to use the TH per this line of reason.

How? That's simply an exception caused by following the Deep Strike Mishap rules as required by The Summoning; they are not arriving from Reserves in the turn The Summoning is cast. They are not being placed "back" in Reserve.

 

Swooping Hawks arrive from Deep Strike and can "Sky Leap" I think is the name of the rule back into Reserve; neither instance is Teleporting.

 

All units arriving from Reserves via Teleports are Deep Strikes; not all Deep Strikes are Teleports.