jeffersonian000 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I feel that my point was missed. It doesn't matter if the unit arrives via teleportation if the unit in question is not on the list of acceptable units in the TH entry. Librarian with TH summons a Land Raider, and it will scatter. Librarian with TH summons a DreadKnight, and it will scatter. Librarian with TH summons Draigo and his attached unit of Paladins, and they will not scatter. Librarian with TH summons a unit of Strikers, and they will not scatter. Etc. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Not true. The Summoning *isn't* Teleporting. Paladin being summoned don't Deep Strike using Teleportation. They Deep Stike by being summoned. Now, as to them suffering a mishap and being placed into reserves. That's a grey area because of a lack of foresight by GW and thier FAQ. If the Pallies then 'arrive' for a second time, and you are allowed to DS them, then by thier TDA wargear they are allowed to 'Teleport' back into the fight and would be effected by the TH. If they are on board and Summoned, they won't. Officially they're teleporting, as they have been since the 80s. Thade, that's your opinion, and it's not supported by the rules at all. I mean, we all know that Force Rods hold 40 power points, and Temporal Distortion allows you to take an extra phase. And that Cyclone Missile Launchers can fire their stock of 12 missiles all at once. And we can stack 'Field' saves on top of each other. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 That's quite a stretch to say the least. I'm glad I play with a group that doesn't rules lawyer the rules. :) G Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl00d bath76 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Okay personaly the reason i want to get a definate and as official answer to this questions is simply so i have a strong case to put forward if a different opponent who thinks otherwise questions me. That is what i want. I want to get the same result every time i play. Not for me having to rely on the person in allowing me or not. If i have a good case then i am readily prepared for when someone questions me on this. This helps prevent an argument as certain players are 'rule lawyers' and therefore they will only accept an official response. That is why i want it to be FAQ'ed as this means every opponent i am up against will accept the ruling. If i didn't do this whilst against many people we will have no problem yet it will be hard to explain to the rule lawyer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 One of the biggest effects that recent FAQ's have shown is that GW uses fluff to decide rules issues (ie., what is a daemon). It is safe to say that most of the units in the GK codex that may deep strike will do so via teleportation (TDA, Strikers and Interceptors, NDK). The few units in the codex that do not deep strike via teleport have specific background fluff as to why not (ie., Stormraven). So it does not defeat logic that when GW states that mishapped Summoned units that go into reserve may have been teleported in the first place (via The Summoning). One could even say that by putting Warp Stablization Fields on vehicles that those vehicles can now be effected by teleportion-based abilities the allow those vehicles to deep strike (ie., Stormraven on its own, transports and dreadnoughts via The Summoneing, etc.). These are reasonable conclusions. What the recent FAQ's have done is shown that GW does not care about RAW quite is much as we do, and that they assume we are capable of determining RAI via background fluff. In the end, NDK might not be able to use teleport homers, nor any Summoned vehilce (if it is decided that Summoning = teleportation), as those units are not on the list of units that may benefit from a teleport homer (an argument could be had for NDK, as they are both modeled with TDA and have the bulk of the TDA abilities including deep strike via teleportion). However, this chain of reason does lead to Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA being able to benefit from teleport homers even if Summoned, specifically because GW supports the thought that mishapped units that are return to reserves for whatever reason may still deep strike on a following turn. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Teleport homers emit a powerful signal enabling the Strike Cruisers to lock on to them with their teleportation equipment. It is the Strike Cruisers that are actually making use of the teleport homer in order to prevent scatter. It is a technological connection that allows the teleportation equipment to function better. As the Strike Cruisers are not involved when using "The Summoning" their connection to the homers is irrelevant. Even if we class the Summoning as teleportation (which I feel it is) it is not in the correct format to benefit from the Teleport Homer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 There you go. If the RAW wasn't enough, there's the fluff justification for all those who think fluff > RAW. :ph34r: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 number 6 I suggest that you should move this to the Rules forum. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-i0qBkxyUZ9c/Thsvt_Py-0I/AAAAAAAACuc/xylefnefQaI/s1600/plasticdudesmen019.jpg Couldn't resist... :ph34r: G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I mean, I'm out of ideas, other than the teleport homer being on the Librarian at all. Possibly it's for post-mishap re-arrival...but I'm still inclined to believe it works all around. I'll wait for the FAQ. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2827997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 From a RAW perspective we know that Strike squads, Interceptors and models in terminator all teleport which are the same units included in The Summoning. The rule doesn't say they are suddenly pulled through a wormhole, right? G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 From a RAW perspective we know that Strike squads, Interceptors and models in terminator all teleport which are the same units included in The Summoning. The rule doesn't say they are suddenly pulled through a wormhole, right? G :tu: RAW states that those units are teleported not that they themselves do the teleporting. The description of the teleport homer clearly states that is the Strike Cruiser that both does the teleporting and uses the teleport homer. The units involved have no control over the teleporting or the homer. The teleport homer doesn't pull units to it (as people seem to be thinking). Units are sent to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 In which case, when the Librarian moves them...why can he not move them to the homer he's wearing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Fluff? As above, the Libby doesn't have the same Teleporting Array (that the strike cruiser does) to lock on to and work with the TH he carries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 In which case, when the Librarian moves them...why can he not move them to the homer he's wearing? You could think of it this way. The teleport homer allows the "teleport generator" to draw a direct line from its location A to the teleport homer B. The librarian A is standing next to the homer B but the unit being teleported is coming from location C. It would be like giving your friends gps co-ordinates over the phone when you're the only one with a gps. They may find the right area from your description, but it won't be that exact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 It seems like you're trying to use RAI to justify a quasi RAW interpretation. G :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 It seems like you're trying to use RAI to justify a quasi RAW interpretation. G <_< No, just trying to use RAI to explain RAW. How about this for RAW then. The teleport homer states that "...if Strike, Intercept or TDA wish to deepstrike...choose to do so within 6"...stc". In the case of The Summoning it is the Librarian, not the squads who are making the choices. As the squads are not the ones "choosing" they can't use the teleport homer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Maybe they are choosing, and they have requested that the Librarian move them over their comm-link. "Brother Marius, make yourself useful and teleport us off your left flank in front of those cowering Eldar Pathfinders." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Here is a thought... Maybe there really isn't teleport technology! We are all assuming that 40k ships have a teleporter room with Scotty at the controls. But this an't Star Trek, baby. What if all this time it has really just been some psyker using a gate power that has been teleporting us since rouge trader? Maybe homers are just psychic beacons using the same technology as chaos icons... We just chose to magic it on a box with dials... Instead of the flesh of a person skinned alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Here is a thought... Maybe there really isn't teleport technology! We are all assuming that 40k ships have a teleporter room with Scotty at the controls. But this an't Star Trek, baby. What if all this time it has really just been some psyker using a gate power that has been teleporting us since rouge trader? Maybe homers are just psychic beacons using the same technology as chaos icons... We just chose to magic it on a box with dials... Instead of the flesh of a person skinned alive. That's actually probably closer to truth than any other we've had so far. Teleporting in 40k has always been stated to be a brief displacement through the warp, and has been shown to be controlled via psyker guilded machinery in most cases. In 5th ed we have a number of different powers that replicate teleportion (Gate of Infinity, The Summoning, Personal Teleportion packs, deep striking via teleportion, warp jumping Warp Spiders, etc). All are based on punching a hole through the warp from one point to another, and all can be considered teleportion by the commone usage of the word (to be moved across a distance instantly). Again, we are hitting a Rules as Written versus Rule is Intended argument, which has no need to even start. The GK Teleport Homer has a restrictive list of units that many benefit from it. The Summoning has a different yet still restrictive list of units that may benefit from it. The two lists are not the same, even though there is some overlap. There is a reasonable argument to support a Teleport Homer benefiting a small set of units being Summoned. There is an equally reasonable argument as to why no Summoned units can benefit from a Teleport Homer. Per the recent FAQ, GW has shown us that they consider fluff to be a deciding point in many arguments, and have even pointed out that when two different special rules contradict each other, then neither work. The Rules as Practical conclusion is that only the units that are on the Teleport Homer list may benefit from using the Teleport Homer, regardless of how they are arriving by deep strike. This does not help in all cases, but if does follow both the Rules as Written and the fluff. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Yep often GW rules based on the fluff and I think everyone here can agree upon the RAI. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2828477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 There is a reasonable argument to support a Teleport Homer benefiting a small set of units being Summoned. If the "reasonable" person ignores the fact that The Summoning does not state that it is movement based on Teleportation. There is an equally reasonable argument as to why no Summoned units can benefit from a Teleport Homer. More reasonable, imo. Per the recent FAQ, GW has shown us that they consider fluff to be a deciding point in many arguments... Yes, they have. And when you look at the fluff for Astartes and teleportation, they do so from their ship to the target area; previous to the Grey Knight codex, only models in Terminator armor could deploy via Teleportation since their armor was the only kind that could withstand the journey through the warp. With the Grey Knight codex, they've described a way to enhance Astartes Power Armor so that it, too, can withstand the rigors of Teleportation via the standard method- arriving from Reserves via Deep Strike Teleportation. From a ship. In orbit. Not from a Librarian on the ground. If you really want to get into fluff, remember what I said earlier: how does the Teleport Homer assist the Librarian in bringing units to his side? Does the homer provide a clearer beacon to his location than... his own body? That makes no logical sense. The Librarian looks at the beacon and says, "Where am I?" The beacon, from the palm of his hand, replies, "Here you are!" ^_^ The Rules as Practical conclusion is that only the units that are on the Teleport Homer list may benefit from using the Teleport Homer, regardless of how they are arriving by deep strike. The Rules as Logical conclusion is that only the units on the Teleport Homer list may benefit from the Teleport Homer if they are arriving on the battlefield from Reserves via Deep Strike Teleportation because that is what the Teleport Homer entry says in the GK rulebook. Remember: permissive rule set. The Summoning does not state that it is Teleportation, the Teleport Homer does not state that it works with The Summoning. Two instances of permission not given; it may not be used in the proprosed way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2829397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I hope they FAQ as I would bet a large sum of money what the answer will be. Of that I feel quite certain. G ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2829423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Yep. I've been wrong before though. PotMS and Smoke, for instance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2829462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 You never know for sure until you see the FAQ and the person who writes the FAQ is not necessarily the same person that wrote the codex. I think this particular instance is almost a sure thing though. :) G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2829508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Teleportation is a generic term that is not defined in a specific way in the BRB, nor the Codex. Teleportation is a term that refers to a tranfer of matter, energy or information between two places without it having to traverse the distance between them by conventional means. Oddly enough, The Summoning does this. But that's fine. Have fun. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/234741-tele-homer-librarian-the-summoning-and-warp-stabilization/page/2/#findComment-2829686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.