Tele-Homer, Librarian, The Summoning, and Warp Stabilization

[thade]

If we give into the incessant whining then surely the world will be a better place for it.

Orrr you're trolling. ;) This kind of posting does nobody any favors.

 

EDIT: Ambiguity is not only the curse of 40k's ruleset; it is also my own.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yes I think he is a troll... it's fairly obvious.

 

G ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm fairly certain Thade's talking about you there BO...

 

Back on track.

 

I checked the three physical dex's I've got to hand (old DH, SW and GK) and there's precedent that TDA only Deep Strikes by Teleportation.

 

DH;

 

Also, any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefiled, and set up using the Deep Strike rules

 

GK;

 

Any model wearing Terminator armour can be teleported onto the battlefield. They may always start the game in reserve and arrive using the Deep Strike rules

 

SW;

 

NB: Though the Terminators os other Space Marines Chapters often teleport straight into battle, Space Wolves have a deep mistrust of such arcane tactcis <snip>

 

Space Wolves in TDA don't get the Deep Strike rule, because they don't Teleport.

 

That's enough precedent for me to accept that TDA can only Deep Strike if they Teleport into battle, unless specifically mentioned otherwise.

[thade]

Yes I think he is a troll... it's fairly obvious.

By he...I meant you, man. Chill it out. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I am not trolling by a stretch.

 

G :)

[dswanick]

Reading this thread has been more than a little ... disorienting, because half the posts come from authors on my block list for being argumentative. That said, I think I agree with thade and Gentlemanloser.

-thade : The rules are vague and assume to much "well it's obvious, innit".

-Gentlemanloser : RAW makes a pretty airtight case for it not working. Too many assumptions and un-stated equivalencies need to be made to make it work.

[thade]

Reading this thread has been more than a little ... disorienting, because half the posts come from authors on my block list for being argumentative.

We have block lists?! :)

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

Other than the mud-slinging, there's been a lot of good points made in this thread.

 

Agreed, but why are they made over and over again by the same people? That's just a waste.

[thade]

Other than the mud-slinging, there's been a lot of good points made in this thread.

 

Agreed, but why are they made over and over again by the same people? That's just a waste.

Sometimes rewording things is valuable, especially in a venue were both people's vocabularies and general proficiency in the English language may be wildly different from one another. More than once I've needed to use entirely different phrasings and word-choices when answering rules questions for various members here.

 

It's not weird. In fact, it's kind of the nature of a forum.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sometimes rewording your point is necessary to making it apply to the current counter-point. Especially if your position isn't challenged, and can't change.

 

But I agree, the whole;

 

It doesn't work by RAW.

 

But it's still Teleporting.

 

OK, it still doesn't work by RAW, and actually it doesn't work by Fluff.

 

But it's still Teleporting.

 

OK, even it if it Teleporting, it still doesn't work with the Fluff, or the RAW

 

Was getting a bit tedious. :D

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is what we do know...

 

1) The teleport homer works for Strike squads, Interceptors and terminators. All three units are described as teleporting onto the battlefield.

 

2) The Librarian can take a teleport homer and can pull in all the units listed above in (1) using the psychic power The Summoning.

 

3) The Librarian is the source.

 

4) Units that are summoned count as deep striking.

 

The units listed in (1) can only teleport so it that regard it makes sense that the Librarian can use the teleport homer. The best argument against this is (3).

 

G

[Gentlemanloser]

The units listed in (1) can only teleport so it that regard it makes sense that the Librarian can use the teleport homer.

 

They can arrive by Deep Strike by Teleportation. Moving and being placed using the Deep Strike rules is totally different, and totally seperate to thier innate ability to arrive by Deep Strike by Teleportation.

 

The best argument against this remains the one from the first page.

 

By RAW, the Teleport Homer does not specifiy it works with The Summoning. By RAW The Summoning does not specify units moved by it arrive by deep strike by teleportation.

 

Really, there doesn't need to be any other discussion on this.

[Something Wycked]

1) The teleport homer works for Strike squads, Interceptors and terminators. All three units are described as teleporting onto the battlefield. If they are arriving from Reserves via Deep Strike.

 

2) The Librarian can take a teleport homer and can pull in all the units listed above in (1) using the psychic power The Summoning.

 

3) The Librarian is the source.

 

4) Units that are summoned count as deep striking. But do not count as Teleporting, due to the lack of such a word in The Summoning.

You must overcome the problems with 1 and 4 before this will work the way we want it to. Yes, WE. I would love for this to work for my Librarian. Sadly, until GW addresses it, it doesn't.

[jeffersonian000]

Actually, where specifically in the BRB does it state what is or is not teleportation?

 

Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA all Deep Strike via teleportions.

 

The the Teleport Homer benefits Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA that Deep Strike.

 

A Librarian may Summon Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA, which arrive via Deep Strike.

 

A Librarian may take a Teleport Homer.

 

Teleport Homer present? Yes.

Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA Deep Striking? Yes.

 

Where does it specifically state that the method of Deep Strike is the limiting factor? Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA Deep Strike via Teleportion, and the Teleport Homer benefits Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA that arrive via Deep Strike.

 

This argument is supported by RAW. RAI remains to be seen, yet the common definition of teleport argess with the usage of the power The Summoning, so it stand up to RAI.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

Actually, where specifically in the BRB does it state what is or is not teleportation?

Sadly, the BRB does not differentiate between the various forms of Deep Striking other than to mention that Deep Striking covers numerous types. We find the distinction of Teleportation being its own type of Deep Striking mechanism through the difference between Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons/Mystics.

 

Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA all Deep Strike via teleportions.

When they arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike, yes.

 

The the Teleport Homer benefits Strikers, Interceptors, and models in TDA that Deep Strike.

When they arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike, yes.

 

Where does it specifically state that the method of Deep Strike is the limiting factor?

In the combination of the Teleport Homer rules entry and The Summoning's rules entry.

 

This argument is supported by RAW. RAI remains to be seen, yet the common definition of teleport argess with the usage of the power The Summoning, so it stand up to RAI.

Your argument is supported by RAI, not RAW. The "common definition" of teleport does match the usage of the power, yes, but the "common definition" is not GW's definition, which is the one that needs to be used in discussions of GW rules.

[amuro_ray]

Wow first of all

 

Thanks for all of your reply, I've been reading it and it seems we need a clarification from GW afterall wheter summoning is a teleportation for not, just like space marine's gate power.

 

Either way it's a combination of psychic, wargear, character, and vehicle wargear, so GW might have missed this, for the time being I'll not use and land raider summoning because it's not safe and play it water warrior style...like how it was been

 

It's fun to see the many opportunities the new dex brings up.

 

Till the new FAQ comes out then :D

[jeffersonian000]

GW stated in the recent FAQ that a Summoned units that mishaps and are placed back into reserves are in fact placed into reserves, even though they may have never been in reserves and certainly weren't when Summoned. The point everyine seems to get hung up on is that the rules are a set of mechanics that are overlayed with a healthy dose of background fluff. In this instance, we have a Wargear that allows units A, B, and models wearing C to not specific rule when they specific action. Unit D may take a Wargear as well as a special ability the unit D specific action units A, B, and models wearing C within range of Wargear, then specific rule will not happen.

 

Remove the fluff, then follow the mechanics.

 

However, we have multi-page thread with people arguing over fluff and calling it rules-lawyering, Raw vs RAI, mud-slinging, etc. But remember this - when you all asked for things to get FAQ'd and the response did not go your way, this issue right here may also get the same treatment.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

GW stated in the recent FAQ that a Summoned units that mishaps and are placed back into reserves are in fact placed into reserves, even though they may have never been in reserves and certainly weren't when Summoned.

See that word there, that I emphasized? "Back"? Take it out of that sentence. I think that may be the trouble right there. The unit was not in reserves when The Summoning was used on it. It is not arriving from Reserves via Deep Strike, and therefore Teleporting. It is arriving from a psychic power via the Deep Strike rules. This is not teleporting unless the power states that it is, just like Terminator armor states that they may arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike Teleporting.

 

But remember this - when you all asked for things to get FAQ'd and the response did not go your way, this issue right here may also get the same treatment.

What kind of threat is this? I'd love for GW to say that the Teleport Homer works with The Summoning. I would absolutely love to use it in my own army lists.

 

The RAW does not currently support it.

[amuro_ray]

Lolz, that's life for us, :D

 

I read the dex at a glance and it seems like a good idea, precision summoning a transport full of scary warriors up ur opponent's face. Then one of my colleagues shows that it can't be done, coz of the limitations of the teleport homer.

 

I just tought that if it's barking, it's a dog, if it's quacking, it's a duck, if its go from one place to the other without moving, it's teleporting.

 

in any other case if I really really want to do it, there's the cheaper servos skulls with a bit of risk and more uses too.

 

Cheers,

[Something Wycked]

Absolutely, amuro. Throw the Servo Skulls on that Librarian and you get a whole lot more utility out of them than you would out of the TH. Just place that Land Raider at the maximum distance away from the Libby as possible and you'll be good 99% of the time ;)

[thade]

Alright, alright, alright...I have my books. Here comes an unbiased summary. (No, really.) First, RAW. Then RAI.

 

RAW

 

This is not teleporting unless the power states that it is, just like Terminator armor states that they may arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike Teleporting.

The word teleport is mentioned as a thing that happens in the BRB, but is not given a section or even highlighted as a special term. It is simply one of the ways a model/unit can move or arrive via Deep Strike. It's not any kind of official term itself. If it was, it would have a section (like in the Movement or Deployment chapters). Instead of being treated like Psyker, Force Weapon, Template, Sniper, etc., it's just mentioned like flavor text. Is it?

 

Stick with me here.

 

The Teleport Homer entry in C:SM (on p101) uses the words Deep Strike and teleport.

 

The Terminator Armor entry in C:SM (p102) uses the words Deep Strike and teleport.

 

The GK's Teleport Homer (p62) uses the words Deep Strike and teleport and lists three units (which have Deep Strike and fluff-wise use teleportation to do so) which can use it.

 

It seems like teleport should be a term. It's treated as if it is synonymous with Deep Strike in the above contexts and others. Deep Strike and arrive via teleport appear to mean the same thing to the authors. Do they?

 

Locator Beacons (Scout Bike entry, C:SM) use the term Deep Strike. This means that Drop Pods, Jump Infantry, and Land Speeders can make use of them...but so can Terminators (not only because Deep Strike is mentioned, but because a teleport homer is included). Why was this distinction made? I think I see a pattern.

 

It appears that all arrival-by-teleports are Deep Strikes...but not all Deep Strikes are arrivals-by-teleport.

 

And, sadly...The Summoning uses Deep Strike, and not specifically arrival-by-teleport.

 

So, with only the books to go on, we already have our answer. RAW, those Summoned cannot use the Homer.

 

RAI

 

I am using another book though, which I assert should be considered part of the 40k base rules. It's called a dictionary.

 

Transport or be transported across space and distance instantly.

In the absence of any further clarification as to how precisely those models are moving, we're left to guess. How are they moving? Well, they're arriving via Deep Strike, so we go look there for examples. Are they tunnelling? Nope, no digging through earth. Are they flying? Nope, no jump packs. What are they doing? They are "crossing a warp bridge". What else does that? Why, Terminators, Battle-cruisers, and insane Gating Sternguard. When things teleport in 40k, they are moving through the warp. In fact, the third example in the Deep Strike section of the BRB is teleporting. Sure, it mentions "other extraordinary means", but why assume it's something not listed when there is a perfectly viable example?

 

In 40k, rules in the absence of fluff are meaningless and the fluff here seems clear: the models are teleporting. RAI, those Summoned can use the Homer.

 

in conclusion

 

Grey Area this garbage. <3 Let's see if they FAQ it for us.

[jeffersonian000]

GW stated in the recent FAQ that a Summoned units that mishaps and are placed back into reserves are in fact placed into reserves, even though they may have never been in reserves and certainly weren't when Summoned.

See that word there, that I emphasized? "Back"? Take it out of that sentence. I think that may be the trouble right there. The unit was not in reserves when The Summoning was used on it. It is not arriving from Reserves via Deep Strike, and therefore Teleporting. It is arriving from a psychic power via the Deep Strike rules. This is not teleporting unless the power states that it is, just like Terminator armor states that they may arrive from Reserves via Deep Strike Teleporting.

 

The RAW does not currently support it.

 

Then I suggest you re-read the FAQ. A unit never actually needs to have started in reserve for a mishap to place them in reserve, per GW. The rules do not support it, the fluff does not support it, but GW does support it. This means specifically that GW has sided with game mechanics over player interpretation. A unit that is being moved from one point on the table to another in a manner that bypasses normal movement and is also described in fluff as being pulled through the warp to a new location is teleporting. When interceptors move like jump infantry or shunt, it is described as teleporting through the warp. When a unit is teleported down from a strike cruisor in orbit to a planet's surface, it is described as being moved from one point to another via the warp. The Teleport Homer states that it effects three different types of units, and that its effect will remove scatter if those specific units Deep Strike within 6" of it. And while Strikers, Interceptors and models in TDA arrive on their own via Deep Strike are considered to have arrived via "teleportion", they in fact have only arrived via Deep Strike, a specific rule those units have the ability to use for one fluff reason or another.

 

What I am stating is that it does not matter what specific means are use to Deep Strike units of Strikers, Interceptors, or models wearing TDA, if those units are using the Deep Strike rule with in 6" of a Teleport Homer, then those units will benefit from the Teleport Homer because they have used the Deep Strike rule to arrive, they are units that are listed as being able to benefit from a Teleport Homer, and the Teleport Homer only requires them to meet those two specific criteria. The Summoning might not specifically state that it is teleporting the units, but it does state that those unit must Deep Strike.

 

Note that NDK and vehicles with Warp Stablization Fields still do not benefit from a Teleport Homer regardless of how they accessed the Deep Strike rule, simply because they are not listed in the Teleport Homer's rules (although a case could be made for the NDK, as it is modeled with the pilot wearing TDA).

 

SJ

[thade]

As an addendum: not to pick on you (or anybody directly) but the whole "teleporting to teleport homers works for Terminators but not for anything else that teleports" is the silliest thing ever. Just my opinion. But srsly. SRSLY.

 

Anyway, I've definitely jumped the shark in this thread. Not sure what else I can contribute. @_@

[Something Wycked]

It appears that all arrival-by-teleports are Deep Strikes...but not all Deep Strikes are arrivals-by-teleport.

;) How long ago did I say this!?

 

Also, you can add the Mystic and Psychic Beacon special rule to go alongside the Locator Beacon; they have essentially identical rules.

 

Then I suggest you re-read the FAQ.

Alright... I did. Right before I replied to your post to be sure I had it right.

 

Have a read over Thade's post right above yours. :)

 

As an addendum: not to pick on you (or anybody directly) but the whole "teleporting to teleport homers works for Terminators but not for anything else that teleports" is the silliest thing ever. Just my opinion. But srsly. SRSLY.

Oh, I know. Trust me, I know. Somehow a Librarian carrying a Teleport Homer can't Summon things to his side with no scatter, but a nearby Servo Skull will reduce the scatter and if he Summons the unit to an area within 6" of a Mystic then it won't scatter at all.

 

Makes. No. Sense. At. All.

 

But them's the breaks of GW rules.

[thade]

;) How long ago did I say this!?

 

Alright, alright, alright...I have my books. Here comes an unbiased summary. (No, really.)

 

:)

 

Makes. No. Sense. At. All.

 

But them's the breaks of GW rules.

Yep. Realizing this finally moved me out of my obsessed-with-RAW phase into a more comfortable this-kind-of-works-RAI phase. Finding the balance is tricky...especially when discussing the ramifications of this stance change with those who have not made the stance change.