Having to assault

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Greetings all,

 

Whilst discussing the merits of Tactical Marines charging to aid the ELITES choices of your Marine list on this thread: HERE

I got into a discussion with Koremu about multiple assaults.

The scenario is this; a squad of assault Terminators against an enemy Tactical squad and Dreadnought.

 

Koremu said:

(Marshal Wilhelm @ Jul 22 2011, 08:16 AM)

Why wouldn't the opponents Terminators just mug all your Tacticals first, and get, say, 5 extra attacks that will kill two more Tacs, and then wait for the Dread to come to them?

Or conversely, why wouldn't they just charge the Dread with all their guys?

Because they can't. If the Terminators are in Assault range of both the Dreadnought and the Tacticals, they have to engage both units if they are able to without breaking Squad coherency. That's why the Dreadnought & Tacticals operate in close association.

 

Marshal Wilhelm said:

• You don't have to charge any unit if you don't want to, and just because you are charging Unit A does not mean you have to charge Unit B even if you can.

 

pg 34 BBB:

ASSAULTING MULTIPLE ENEMY UNITS

"....Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units...."

 

(Koremu @ Jul 22 2011, 09:39 PM)

Keep reading, it says you MUST engage as many models as possible.

 

And in any case, if you're doing it right there's not room for more than one 40mm base to cantact the Dread.

 

MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS:

 

Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many models as possible.

 

This is to do with a 1 v 1 situation.

 

The assaulting unit cannot assault a second unit unless you want them to. If they are wanted to, then they would have to "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many models as possible."

 

+++

 

If you have stacked the Tacticals well, and only one Terminator can get at the Dread, you do this:

 

__X

__O

_OO

_OO

 

The X is the Dread.

The top O is the contacting Termie.

The next rank of two Os are in base contact with the contacting Termie.

The last two Os are in base contact with those, and are within 2" of the contacting Termie

 

All get to assault the Dread.

 

Koremu said:

No, that would be an illegal move. If the Terminators are able to contact the Tacticals, they must do so.

 

+++

 

So in summary, if Bob declares his assault Terminators are going to charge the Dreadnought and the Tacticals are also close by, do the Terminators have to assault the Tacticals too?

 

I say no.

[dswanick]

You are only required to assault the unit which you shot in the shooting phase and/or which you declare as the target of your assault move. You may multi-assault additional units within the parameters set forthe in that section, but it is entirely optional. The must engage as many models as possible is only within the context of the units declared as being assaulted, it does not require you to declare a multi-assault.

[thade]

Interesting. The rules do say "you must engage as many models as possible" so I can see the interpretation. However...

 

The core assault rules are in reference to one unit charging into one unit. It is within here that it's explained you "must engage as many models as possible".

 

The multiple assault rules come after that; they are an extension/exceptions to the normal assault rules.

 

You DO have to engage as many new models as possible in the unit(s) you have charged. Nothing about the rules makes it compulsory to assault a unit you don't want to. However, neglecting to engage a unit can heavily restrict how many of your own models you can bring in to engagement (pile-in will engage more, but not by your choosing, which is the advantage of charging along with bonus attacks) and it will open you up to counter charge (trading those benefits to your opponent).

 

Then again, any self-respecting marine player would just charge them all anyway. :) "Kill them all," says the Chaplain.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by a more succinct dswanick.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I agree. The terminators are only obligated to assault the unit that they declared they were assaulting, all other targets are optional.

 

The five bullet points describing assault movement rules are for one target. Assaulting multiple targets forces you to follow the same rules but the choice to assault something other than your declared target is not mandatory, hence the use of the word "can" in the rules.

[thade]

haha If dswanick, Hiro, and I all agree that quickly, I think you're in the clear, Marshal. <3 (Usually one pair of us will duke it out for pages...)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

haha If dswanick, Hiro, and I all agree that quickly, I think you're in the clear, Marshal. <3 (Usually one pair of us will duke it out for pages...)

 

Thank you brothers :)

[Koremu]

I disagree. The rule which says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units" doesn't contain a permission to ignore other rules. It simply states that it is permissible to assault models belonging to units other than the initial target.

 

It's saying "the remaining models can perform this action", not "the player can opt to have these do this if he wishes".

 

First Terminator contacts the Dreadnought, the remaining four are obliged to obey the remaining rules: To move up to 6", to end movement in coherency, and to engage as many models as possible.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I disagree. The rule which says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units" doesn't contain a permission to ignore other rules. It simply states that it is permissible to assault models belonging to units other than the initial target.

 

It's saying "the remaining models can perform this action", not "the player can opt to have these do this if he wishes".

 

First Terminator contacts the Dreadnought, the remaining four are obliged to obey the remaining rules: To move up to 6", to end movement in coherency, and to engage as many models as possible.

 

Can does not equal must.

 

The rules are that you can assault a second target so long as you follow the rules (movement, coherency, engage, etc.) for assaults, not that you must assault multiple targets if you can.

 

Choosing to only assault the Dread isn't "ignoring other rules", it's choosing the method of your assault.

[Koremu]

I disagree. The rule which says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units" doesn't contain a permission to ignore other rules. It simply states that it is permissible to assault models belonging to units other than the initial target.

 

It's saying "the remaining models can perform this action", not "the player can opt to have these do this if he wishes".

 

First Terminator contacts the Dreadnought, the remaining four are obliged to obey the remaining rules: To move up to 6", to end movement in coherency, and to engage as many models as possible.

 

Can does not equal must.

 

The rules are that you can assault a second target so long as you follow the rules (movement, coherency, engage, etc.) for assaults, not that you must assault multiple targets if you can.

 

Choosing to only assault the Dread isn't "ignoring other rules", it's choosing the method of your assault.

Why do the Terminators get to ignore the rule that they must assault as many models as possible?

[Hiro_Protagonist]

The rule to assault as many models as possible is based around squad versus squad, not army versus army. You must assault as many models as possible within the target unit.

The rules for multiple assaults are designed to be an advantage to the assaulter, not the defender.

[SeattleDV8]

Why do the Terminators get to ignore the rule that they must assault as many models as possible?

Because they would be breaking another rule BRB Pg. 24"...and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaaulting."

 

Multi assaults are a choice.

[Koremu]

Why do the Terminators get to ignore the rule that they must assault as many models as possible?

Because they would be breaking another rule BRB Pg. 24"...and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaaulting."

 

Multi assaults are a choice.

That interpretation is not supported by the rules. Multi-Assaulting is allowed under the rules for multiple assaults, and the Terminators must obey the rule that forces them to engage as many models as possible while respecting the movement and coherency restrictions.

 

Nothing in the multi-assault rule permits the Terminators to ignore that requirement.

[Legatus]

The rule to assault as many models as possible is based around squad versus squad, not army versus army. You must assault as many models as possible within the target unit.

The fact that, after the list of what assaulting models have to mind, there is a different section titeled "assaulting multiple units" should have made that clear. But there are more references to that:

 

"MOVE ASSAULTING UNITS

Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against."

 

"MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS

All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

 

If an assaulting unit was allways assumed to assault all units within range, then that last statement would have been redundant. And that is immediately followed up with:

 

"Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back!"

 

...which since it is not specified to count for the enemy unit that is being assaulted may be a bit confusing, however, the next sentences clarify:

 

"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route."

 

Unfortunately, none of the three references to being required to contact as many enemy models as possible clarifies that those models are supposed to be from "the unit being assaulted" specifically. But I think the fact that assaulting a specified unit is being referenced at least four times, and that there is a section after this that explains how it is also possible to assault multiple units if desired, should make it clear that the previous section was refering to that specified unit.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Why do the Terminators get to ignore the rule that they must assault as many models as possible?

Because they would be breaking another rule BRB Pg. 24"...and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaaulting."

 

Multi assaults are a choice.

That interpretation is not supported by the rules. Multi-Assaulting is allowed under the rules for multiple assaults, and the Terminators must obey the rule that forces them to engage as many models as possible while respecting the movement and coherency restrictions.

 

Nothing in the multi-assault rule permits the Terminators to ignore that requirement.

 

You are still looking at this in an "army vs army" rather than a "squad vs squad" format.

 

The assault rules are based on one squad assaulting another, not one squad assaulting an army. A squad is not required to dilute its combat potential. All of the rules for assaulting multiple units use "can" not must.

 

XXXXX___YYYYY

 

______1_2

 

(X's are one squad, Y's another, 1 and 2 are in the same squad)

 

A-1 can assault X but 2 can only make base with 1

B-2 can assault Y but 1 can only make base with 2

C-1 can assault X while 2 assaults Y and still maintain coherency.

 

By your logic the only option is C. So using Marines as a baseline 1&2 are not allowed to fight with four attacks vs X's five, they must fight with two attacks vs X and two vs Y while suffering ten attacks back? At what point did suicide missions become mandatory in 40K?

[dswanick]

That interpretation is not supported by the rules. Multi-Assaulting is allowed under the rules for multiple assaults, and the Terminators must obey the rule that forces them to engage as many models as possible while respecting the movement and coherency restrictions.

 

Nothing in the multi-assault rule permits the Terminators to ignore that requirement.

And you just put the Bolter round into the heart of your own arguement. Your arguement hinges on this statement:

Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back!

Which is preceded by this statement:

All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

Now here's the thing:

As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.

Not 'must', 'can'. And if you choose not to; they 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting', thus you are still following the rule that you must get into base contact with all enemy models possible.

[thade]

Weird. Legatues and Seattle too. Sorry to meta this thread, but I'm marvelling at how quickly we all just agreed here. @_@

 

Legatus et al have bagged this pretty well.

 

"Can" is not "must".

[Acebaur]

I think part of the problem here is like others said, he is confusing squad vs squad with squad vs army, or more specifically, he is confusing "models" with "units"

 

Your whole argument hinges on that one statement, which is not in the "Multiple Assaults" section. Not only that, but if you were forced to assault multiple units, why would they have a separate section for multiple assaults at all, if every assault had to be multiple if it could?

[Grimtooth]

I can't even believe this was an argument in the first place.

[Commander S. Caesare]

Man this is confusing. May I ask in the first place?

 

Where the REMAINING terminators within 6" of the opposing squad to legally assault the Dreadnought?

 

Possibly, the squad could've been oddly placed, seeing only 1 Terminator is within range of the Dreadnought. I think that can't really be possible to assault with the remainder at the Dreadnought fully.

 

Is it possible that I can see a physical demonstration of this event?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Weird. Legatues and Seattle too. Sorry to meta this thread, but I'm marvelling at how quickly we all just agreed here. @_@

 

Legatus et al have bagged this pretty well.

 

"Can" is not "must".

 

 

You can throw me on that pile too. I still keep an eye on the OR forum, other folks have just been asnwering properly before I get there. Oh well, someone is bound to ask a wound allocation question eventualy.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Man this is confusing. May I ask in the first place?

 

Were the REMAINING terminators within 6" of the opposing squad to legally assault the Dreadnought?

 

Possibly, the squad could've been oddly placed, seeing only 1 Terminator is within range of the Dreadnought. I think that can't really be possible to assault with the remainder at the Dreadnought fully.

 

Is it possible that I can see a physical demonstration of this event?

 

I have shown that here:

 

If you have stacked the Tacticals well, and only one Terminator can get at the Dread, you do this:

 

__X

__O

_OO

_OO

 

The X is the Dread.

The top O is the contacting Termie.

The next rank of two Os are in base contact with the contacting Termie.

The last two Os are in base contact with those, and are within 2" of the contacting Termie

 

All get to assault the Dread.

 

This is assuming that RED rank couldn't otherwise get into base contact with the Dread. That was assumed because the Tacticals were meant to be either side of the Dread, and the charging Termies didn't want to engage them, for some reason.

[Koremu]

I don't believe it's legal to hold back from engaging the surrounding Tacticals. There can be no holding back, as it states quite clearly in the rules.

 

It simply isn't legal to declare to charge only the Dreadnought in that situation.

[Legatus]

Yes it is. You don't have to assault a unit you don't want to assault. If there are two units right next to each other, youcan chose to assault them both, but the default procedure is that you pick one of them to assault. Not only are you not required to assault the other unit, you are outright forbidden to place any of your models in contact with it, unless you declared that you intended to assault that unit as well.

[Koremu]

Yes it is. You don't have to assault a unit you don't want to assault. If there are two units right next to each other, youcan chose to assault them both

But there are insufficient units in the unit for you to place all of your models into base contact, and other models available within assault range & close enough to retain unit coherency. You have to get base to base with as many models as possible.

 

It would be a different matter if you were faced with 2 units, with 5+ models in both units. Then you could opt to multi-engage or to only go base-to-base with the one unit.

 

In this case, you simply can't opt not to multi-charge because you must engage as many models as possible - no holding back!

[Hiro_Protagonist]

You are still looking at this in an "army vs army" rather than a "squad vs squad" format.

 

The assault rules are based on one squad assaulting another, not one squad assaulting an army. A squad is not required to dilute its combat potential. All of the rules for assaulting multiple units use "can" not must.

 

XXXXX___YYYYY

 

______1_2

 

(X's are one squad, Y's another, 1 and 2 are in the same squad)

 

A-1 can assault X but 2 can only make base with 1

B-2 can assault Y but 1 can only make base with 2

C-1 can assault X while 2 assaults Y and still maintain coherency.

 

By your logic the only option is C. So using Marines as a baseline 1&2 are not allowed to fight with four attacks vs X's five, they must fight with two attacks vs X and two vs Y while suffering ten attacks back? At what point did suicide missions become mandatory in 40K?

 

So you are saying that the above example is the only way to go?