Having to assault

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Here's a more extreme example (hopefully to make it more clear....)

The center squad has one member who can make base contact with each of the two squads.

No other member of the squad can make base with anything but can maintain squad coherency (and adhere to all other rules of assault).

If multi-assault is mandatory (as Koremu is suggesting) then this is the final result...

Does this look reasonable in any way??? No.

Just because you can does not mean you must. Or in this example should...

[Legatus]

But there are insufficient units in the unit for you to place all of your models into base contact, and other models available within assault range & close enough to retain unit coherency. You have to get base to base with as many models as possible.

Whether the dreadnought was standing in a ditch so that only one Terminator could contact him, or whether he was surrounded by tactical Marines, the result would be the same. Only one Terminator can contact the Dreadnought. The Terminators are forbidden to contact the Tactical Marines if no assault was declared against them.

 

"assaulting models may still not move through (...) enemy models (...) and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. (...)

Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). (...)

After moving the first model (...) you can move the others (...). There are some constraints on their movement though:

- If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

 

Unfortunately that last statement does not say "move into base contact with any enemy model of the unit your unit is assaulting", but that is the premise the rules had been operating off up to that point. When making assault moves, you are forbidden to contact models of units you are not assaulting, and you must move around enemy models you are not assaulting. And after that assault movement section there is a section explaining that it is allowed to declare assaults against further units than the first one. Because the initial assault move rules assume that you move into contact with one single unit.

 

If you want to go strictly by RAW, and cannot accept that the requirement to contact enemy models refers specifically to the unit which was declared the target of the assault, then I am proposing that the "If possible" at the start of that requirement takes into account that you are not allowed to contact enemy models that were not declared a target of your assault. I.e. the Terminators did not declare that they also assault the Tactical Marines, therefor they are forbidden to be placed in contact with them, therefor it is not "possible" for them to contact the Tactical Marines, and thus they are not required to contact them.

[Grimtooth]

Kor, your reasoning has been pointed per RAW as being wrong and yet you still cling to it. The rules are specifically sepearated. The rules are clear on separating the units. Simply follow the rules.

[Legatus]

Well, not specifically tying the "have to contact models if possible" to the unit that was declared as the target was a bit of an unfortunate omittance on the part of GW. That would probably have made things just a bit more clear in this case.

[Koremu]

But there are insufficient units in the unit for you to place all of your models into base contact, and other models available within assault range & close enough to retain unit coherency. You have to get base to base with as many models as possible.

Whether the dreadnought was standing in a ditch so that only one Terminator could contact him, or whether he was surrounded by tactical Marines, the result would be the same. Only one Terminator can contact the Dreadnought. The Terminators are forbidden to contact the Tactical Marines if no assault was declared against them.

No, you are specifically unable to declare an assault against the Dreadnought alone, you MUST engage as many models as possible. NO HOLDING BACK

[Legatus]

You are only required to contact enemy models that are possible to contact. You are not allowed to contact models you did not declare an assault against. Declaring assaults against units is optional.

[Koremu]

You are only required to contact enemy models that are possible to contact. You are not allowed to contact models you did not declare an assault against. Declaring assaults against units is optional.

Not if it leaves you attacking less models it isn't. You must assault as many models as possible.

 

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3296/example1cr.png

 

MS Paint FTW

 

Kor, your reasoning has been pointed per RAW as being wrong and yet you still cling to it. The rules are specifically sepearated. The rules are clear on separating the units. Simply follow the rules.

I am following the rules. The 'logic' which is being employed against me is "there's a specific permission that this can happen, therefore it doesn't"

[Legatus]

Not if it leaves you attacking less models it isn't. You must assault as many models as possible.

If you only declare an assault against the Dreadnought, then it is only possible for your Terminators to contact that one model.

 

 

"assaulting models may still not move through (...) enemy models (...) and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. (...)

Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). (...)

After moving the first model (...) you can move the others (...). There are some constraints on their movement though:

- If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

 

The Terminators are forbidden to contact models they did not declare an assault against.

 

When moved into close combat, they declared an assault against the Dreadnought. They have to contact new models where possible. But since The assault was only declared against the Dreadnought, no other enemy models are allowed to be contacted.

[thade]

Hiro's example is very solid. It shows pretty clearly that Multi-assault being required is pretty silly.

 

The words "may" and "can" are all attached to multi-assault. "No holding back" refers directly to the section it is in...single unit assault. If you don't declare multiple targets, 1" away from the others will restrict your assault; it's kosher though.

 

EDIT: The red text in Legatus's recent post settles it. That text would not exist were multiple assaults required.

 

Sorry, Koremu-san. ^_^

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This is the logic pattern:

 

One on one;

 

Does PLAYER want X to assault 1? yes

Did X shoot at 1, if shot at all? yes

PLAYER can now decide to declare an assault with X on 1

PLAYER must engage X into 1 as fully as possible

1 must now be consolidated into X as fully as possible.

 

Right? This is basically the guts of a one on one assault.

 

+++

 

One on two;

 

Does PLAYER want X to assault 1? yes

Did X shoot at 1, if shot at all? yes

PLAYER can now decide to declare an assault with X on 1

• does PLAYER also want X to assault 2?

Consult Assaulting multiple enemy units:

"....Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models."

 

can 1 |kan|

modal verb ( 3rd sing. present can ; past could |koŏd|)

1 be able to : they can run fast | I could hear footsteps | he can't afford it.

• be able to through acquired knowledge or skill : I can speak Italian.

• have the opportunity or possibility to : there are many ways vacationers can take money abroad.

• [with negative or in questions ] used to express doubt or surprise about the possibility of something's being the case : he can't have finished | where can she have gone?

2 be permitted to : you can use the phone if you want to | nobody could legally drink on the premises.

• used to ask someone to do something : can you open the window? | can't you leave me alone?

• used to make a suggestion or offer : we can have another drink if you like.

 

Can is an optional.

 

If yes, PLAYER keeps following Moving Assaulting Models section

If no, PLAYER only moves X into 1

 

That is it.

 

+++

 

Both the very useful drawings of Koremu do in fact merit a tick for being legal moves. :ph34r:

[SeattleDV8]

It's no different than shooting, if you are shooting you must use all the shots that the weapon has, but any model can choose not to shoot.

If you assault you must get as many models engaged as possible, but only against the units you have declared an assault against.

You are never forced to multi assault.

[Valerian]

Koremu,

 

You are the only fellow in the entire OR forum that thinks you have to Multi-assault. Based on that, and the very well written explantations by several others to help you out, you might want to reconsider your position.

 

Think about it this way, perhaps:

 

"no holding back! (against the units that you've declared an assault)"

 

Regards,

 

V

[Morollan]

Not if it leaves you attacking less models it isn't. You must assault as many models as possible.

If you only declare an assault against the Dreadnought, then it is only possible for your Terminators to contact that one model.

 

 

"assaulting models may still not move through (...) enemy models (...) and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting. (...)

Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). (...)

After moving the first model (...) you can move the others (...). There are some constraints on their movement though:

- If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

 

The Terminators are forbidden to contact models they did not declare an assault against.

 

When moved into close combat, they declared an assault against the Dreadnought. They have to contact new models where possible. But since The assault was only declared against the Dreadnought, no other enemy models are allowed to be contacted.

 

I'm keen to see Koremu's response to this, as it seems to very clearly set out the position adopted by...well, pretty much everyone except Koremu. I have never heard of anyone trying to say that you have to assault every unit in range before. The impact that would have on games doesn't bear thinking about.

[SaradominWrecksYou]

Okay, so Koremu is wrong. How about if a tact squad was wrapped around the dread, making sure that no enemy model was able to touch the dread without being within 1 in. of the tacticals. Would that force the enemy to charge the tacts as well, if they wanted to charge the dread?

[Something Wycked]

No, they would not be forced to charge the Tacticals. In the assault phase your models are allowed to violate the 1" bubble around enemy models but you are not actually in assault with that model unless you make base to base contact.

 

EDIT: That's not to say that a clever player could arrange his Tacticals such that they must be assaulted as well in order to assault the dread. But if assaulting the dread is possible by only coming within 1" of the Tacticals and not contacting them, that is legal.

[SaradominWrecksYou]

That sounds alright, thanks.

[Leonaides]

just a thought, but for koremu to have this opinion, surely that means that the people he plays also think this?

[Morollan]

just a thought, but for koremu to have this opinion, surely that means that the people he plays also think this?

 

Or he has a lot of games that only last until the first assault phase.

[Dan VK]

just a thought, but for koremu to have this opinion, surely that means that the people he plays also think this?

"If you assault, you must multi-assault if possible," is not an uncommon misconception. Taken separately, different passages state different things. One section is written assuming the assault is against a single unit, and states that the assaulting unit must move closest model to closest enemy model. Another section is written assuming the assault is against multiple units, and states that this is an option, not a mandate. Taken together, but read separately, it can easily appear as if units must multi-assault in certain circumstances.

 

Also, I think B&C needs a zombie emoticon for threadomancy.

[thade]

Also, I think B&C needs a zombie emoticon for threadomancy.

Seconded.

[Leonaides]

1 month isn't really zombiemancy, more like temporary comatose state:-)

[Dan VK]

1 month isn't really zombiemancy, more like temporary comatose state:-)

I just really want a zombie emoticon. :mellow:

[Leonaides]

At last - a man who's easily pleased in the OR! Quick - get him up on the trophy wall! (Jeeves, fetch the elephant gun while I distract him)

[Jacinda]

I just really want a zombie emoticon. :devil:

f(O_o)f