Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I've been toying with using max sized units in my armies recently. I figured 'they go to twenty, let's see what happens'. I've only used them once on the battlefield (the rest has been theory), but they did quite well. Has anyone else tried this tactic? Armies seem ready for Horde, they seem ready for MEQ, but can they deal with a MEQ Horde? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 I've pondered this exact thing many, many times and I always come up with the same problems. 1) When is one 20 man squad better then two 10 man squads? 2) How do you fit 20 guys into a rhino? 3) How do you get to objectives in time (see#2 above)? 4) How do you get over the huge point cost? 5) How do you bring enough firepower to wipe out your opponent, especially true if they bring heavy or fast armor? In the end, I think there are too many disadvantages to doing it in your average setting. If CSMs were built like IG squads, where you could take X weapons per Y guys and icons couldn't be killed off, then you might be able to make it work in the same way that powerblob IG does. As it is, CSMs are based around 10 guys per squad, no more and no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 I see some of your points but my thinking was kind of like this... Annihilation - I've got 4 KP at 1500 (60 CSM + DP), if I take out some transports and a squad your have to table me, or I win. Capture and Control - Have your ever tried to shift 20 Plague marines off an objective? Sieze Ground (the worst of the bunch) - One squad can hold multiple objectives, or contest for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Capture and Control - Have your ever tried to shift 20 Plague marines off an objective? when the whole opposing army can focus on a single unit and it may sometimes be hard to get 10 dudes in cover to have cover for 20 ? yes . specialy if the opposing army has any form of blast template . Against hth armies it is again a problem , because they will focus fire for 2 turns they will have rhinos to block LoS and when they do charge the numbers will be in their favor . You are thinking here in term of unit on unit play , but the game doesnt work like that . Sieze Ground (the worst of the bunch) - One squad can hold multiple objectives, or contest for that matter. a late turn charge and your 20 man unit has to consolidate in to it 6" probably taking your off one of them . konga only works for IG because they have a wall of chimeras and are build around the concept of not getting anything in to hth in the first place. as minigun said 20 man squads do not work . ours are too slow to make a hth army [no fleet non 12" charge] and for shoting it it actualy better for us to run minimal PM squads . 20 man squads are easy to tar pit , give options for easier focus fire to your opponents , and if you want to use them at proper number[3-4 squads] your suddenly runing almost non anti tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I enjoy using 20 man squads and have have quite a bit of success in the past. Granted two ten man squads are probably more flexible but don't see that as any reason to right off twenty man squads, I would prefer the option to include more special weapons though as I end up dropping the heavy or special weapons in favour of a couple more bolters. This hasn't really hindered their success though, they can absorb a lot hits and draw fire from more valuable units as for the cost it's no different to buying two ten man squads, fifteen points less if you discount the two squads taking two Aspiring Champions to the twenty man squads one. To me larger squads are truer to the background material and having the marines fight in warbands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I think if you do it you want em to be fearless. A bad morale check could ruin your day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 There is the psychological aspect to consider. With two or ever three big 20 man squads as well as a pair of DPs and maybe a Raider there would be so many scary targets that alot of people might find to hard to effectively focus fire. At least that's what my guts tells me. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 My response would a Thunderfire Cannon or Vindicator. Let's face it -- even with a bad scatter, you're bound to hit something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddraconis Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I think taking just large units of guys is a bad idea. Why not mix it up? You know, in a tournament setting, your bound to get 2 games that are objective based. I would think 2 large PM squads sitting on objectives while minimum guys run around playing clean up crew is a decent way to go. I always thought this would be a fun list to run: HQ: DP-Wings, MoN, Warptime Troops: 8xBezerkers-Rhino 8xBezerkers-Rhino 8xBezerkers-Rhino 15xPlague Marines 15xPlague Marines Heavy: 3xOblits 2xOblits 2xOblits Plenty of tank destruction, HtH combat is covered, and really strong coverage for objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 no different to buying two ten man squads, fifteen points less if you discount the two squads taking two Aspiring Champions to the twenty man squads one. other then being 2 scoring units havign double the specials and double the fists . that is kind of a huge difference . Why not mix it up? because mixing doesnt generaly work . taking your list as an example . why take 30 pms in 2 units naked. [which by the looks of it seems to be a 2500 army] when you can take 3x5 in rhinos with plasma guns and without the same champions. they are harder to kill [rhinos have to die first] they have synergy with oblits [rhino give them a rhino wall to block part of the incoming fire making not only the pms live longer but the oblits too] . they have 6 plasma guns . What does the 2x15 build do . First of all it means the 3 zerker units are going in to hth against a 2500 pts army . it also means that it takes to pop 3 rhinos to make your army a foot slogging one and hth units that footslogg better be cavalery or 12" charge or fleet. else at so many points they will get either shot to death or shot to near death and then counter charged. we play with 6-9 oblits in 1500-1750 and it is offten not enough . this looks like a 2500 list whole ~1000pts more where many armies [like loyalists] do run strong counter units[because they can finaly fit them in to their builds without turning their lists in to a death star build] there is more tanks , more transports more of everything . All that happens while your list has 1 extra oblits over a normal chaos list. So I think am kind of a missing the part of more anti tank[in fact the same list runing 5man pm units in rhinos with meltas would have more anti tank , a rhino wave to protect the zerker rhinos etc]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 other then being 2 scoring units havign double the specials and double the fists . that is kind of a huge difference . With a lower breaking point and being 75pts more expensive minimum. Scoring units aren't going to do you any good in an annihilation mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crucial Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 other then being 2 scoring units havign double the specials and double the fists . that is kind of a huge difference . With a lower breaking point and being 75pts more expensive minimum. Scoring units aren't going to do you any good in an annihilation mission. True 'dat. Especially the bit about annihlation missions, IMHO scoring units are overated. I think having a mix is a good way to go, like those SW armys with the standard rhino rush stuff but with a 15-strong Blood claw pack charging down the field every turn. They sound hard to shift come late game and they would be protected earlier on by the other stuff. I like the point made earlier by Hiro_Protagonist about annihlation missions. You literally pod a few transports and a unit and... You. Win. Theres 1/3 games at a tourney won, you would just need some plans for the others. PMs in obvectives maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I totally agree with you there mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 After reading this I'm tempted to run 2 squads of 20 PM's with powerfist champs and 2 melta guns per squad. 1040 pts. Then 2 vindicators for another 250. leaving 210 for HQ. What would be a good fit for the remainder of the points? I don't have a DP. I considered not takng the 2nd power fist and then using typhus. oh. total 1500pts. This would just be for fun so what would be a good HQ or HQ and fill in at the 210 level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lorddraconis Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Why not mix it up? [which by the looks of it seems to be a 2500 army Its actually only a 2k so a good half of your theory goes out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 dude no it doesnt . Check a 2k pts army for IG and check how far you get with two naked 15 man pms units . Or better yet do a mirror match up 10 games at 2k pts against a normal chaos list one that will run 9 oblits smaller pm sqauds 2 DPs and check how "good" your army build works True 'dat. Especially the bit about annihlation missions, IMHO scoring units are overated. 2/3 of all games are about scoring units . With a lower breaking point and being 75pts more expensive minimum breaking point of what PMs dont run they are fearless. and as said before one can run them as 5 man weapon platforms. yes they cost 75 pts "more" but they give more targets more special weapons and are more resilient then 2 big squads. I think having a mix is a good way to go, like those SW armys with the standard rhino rush stuff but with a 15-strong Blood claw pack charging down the field every turn masterful example sir . GH all scoring BC all scoring . with LF added [our oblits only more weapons and 2 targets per unit insteaf of one ] and TWC [which more or less work like our DPs] . In deed SW armies run few scoring units :tu: . Theres 1/3 games at a tourney won, you would just need some plans for the others. and in 2 you get tabled because you dont have the scoring units and always lose . I would like to see to plan to counter that . Right now all armies that dont focus on their troops are either deathstars or alfa strike builds[which is more or less runing two death star units only at smaller points cost] or they make non scoring units scoring or troops [DW/logan wing] . Because an army that has few or easy killable troop/scoring units have to table the opponent or kill enough of opposing army so it cant A kill the few troops they run and B dont have enough units to contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I never said plague marines I was talking about regular chaos marines. Clearly you and me are at complete odds with play styles here, I'm about having fun and enjoying the game not telling people how their units are going to perform because you say so. You can't tell people they are going to get tabled, that's just nonsense! You know nothing about the players involved, the terrain being used or the army that their opponent has taken, just saying they are going to get tabled is utter rubbish! :D Some of the best games I've been in have been when the outsider turns the game around at the last minute and I've pulled out victories from certain defeat in the end more times than I care to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Underbelly Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'll second that Doghouse. From a modeling and theme perspective I think a large unit of chaos marines would look amazing on the battlefield. I can imagine a huge unit of chaos marines containing a couple of souped up chaos lords running through cover backed up with a couple of dreads and predators in true great crusade style. I think it would be fun. It's sad that many people seem to take Warhammer 40,000 so seriously. It's a game. Take your career/partner/family/health seriously. Not 40k. My apologies if that last comment comes across a little sanctimonious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Everyone plays the game for a different reason and for some that reason is high level competition, pitting their best army against others. Its neither good nor bad, it just isn't for everyone. A single 20 man squad used for camping and controlling objectives might be interesting though it would require the champion and IoCG to keep from running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkseer Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I think it's worth playing a couple of games with at least. How about someone here goes and plays said games and reports back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I think it's worth playing a couple of games with at least. How about someone here goes and plays said games and reports back? This is the Internet, Darkseer. We don't have time for rational solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 As I'm the one who started this I'll bite the bullet and test it out. I'm currently in a campaign so for as long as it runs I'll use as many horde set-ups as possible. Missions are determined randomly (and my first 3 are all Kill-Point). If I recieve bonuses in the mission I'll specify in the description. I'll just give the generalities of my lists. 1st mission vs Blood Angels 1500pts (Annihilation, Pitched Battle) - Fielded DP, 20 CSM (melta/AC), 20 Havocs (4 AC), 20 Noise Marines (Blastmaster) - all squads with PF, non-fearless have Icon of Glory. - Bottom of turn 4 Blood Angel concedes as victory (or draw) becomes impossible. 2nd mission vs Plague Marines 2000pts (Annihilation, Dawn of War) - Fielded 2 DP, 20 Tsons, 20 Tsons, 3 Oblits, Defiler, Vindicator - Draw, game ended turn five, 4 KP each 3rd mission vs Space Wolves 1650pts + I recieve a possible 3 USR's (Annihilation, Spearhead) (to be fought Aug 16) edit - fixed point value of second mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Fatiswon Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 i think this would have some merit if you treated like the "Black tide" of the BT dex. 2-3 twenty man troop squads: x2 melta guns, Icon of Slannesh + Asp champ w/PF F. Bile for your 1st HQ for Enhanced warriors run it behind a pair of vindi's, a deflier and a pair of CC dreads depending on points add in a chaos lord w/lighting claws two to three fearless, running, bp+ccw weilding I5 S5 hordes but like the black tide, it would get old fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 i think this would have some merit if you treated like the "Black tide" of the BT dex.2-3 twenty man troop squads: x2 melta guns, Icon of Slannesh + Asp champ w/PF F. Bile for your 1st HQ for Enhanced warriors run it behind a pair of vindi's, a deflier and a pair of CC dreads depending on points add in a chaos lord w/lighting claws two to three fearless, running, bp+ccw weilding I5 S5 hordes but like the black tide, it would get old fast. Unfortunately none of the icons make our troops fearless. Glory = re-roll morale Khorne = +1 A Slannesh = +1 I Nurgle = +1 T Tzeentch = 5+ Invuln I think they'll actually do better as a shooty army (the CSM's at least). Mostly long range fire power and then swamp them with massed bolter fire once they're close. Of course I don't know how well it'll work in practice, but that's why I'm trying it. Math-hammer theory is all well and good, but nothing beats actual usage. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 i think this would have some merit if you treated like the "Black tide" of the BT dex.2-3 twenty man troop squads: x2 melta guns, Icon of Slannesh + Asp champ w/PF F. Bile for your 1st HQ for Enhanced warriors run it behind a pair of vindi's, a deflier and a pair of CC dreads depending on points add in a chaos lord w/lighting claws two to three fearless, running, bp+ccw weilding I5 S5 hordes but like the black tide, it would get old fast. Unfortunately none of the icons make our troops fearless. Glory = re-roll morale Khorne = +1 A Slannesh = +1 I Nurgle = +1 T Tzeentch = 5+ Invuln I think they'll actually do better as a shooty army (the CSM's at least). Mostly long range fire power and then swamp them with massed bolter fire once they're close. Of course I don't know how well it'll work in practice, but that's why I'm trying it. Math-hammer theory is all well and good, but nothing beats actual usage. :P Enhanced Warriors by Bile however, DOES make them fearless. :P TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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