Dosjetka Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Wow, nice thread :) I agree it would be fun to try out a horde army list, so I may just have a go at it ;) This may sound a bit... "mean"... but cheers Doghouse for getting the jeske to calm down ;) Ludovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Do you find the horde squads to be more fun to play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 Do you find the horde squads to be more fun to play? I have been finding them to be quite fun. They require a different set of tactics and a different out-look, but they are a blast to play. It gives you a nice change of pace from your regualr games while still letting you use the army you love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 It gives you a nice change of pace from your regualr games while still letting you use the army you love. And that is really the whole point of it, at least for me. Having fun using the army you want to, not the army you feel you have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 Last night's opponent was a no-show. :) Be a few weeks before my next round of Horde Research. Does anyone else have any data with regards to horde usage? By this I mean actually used or actually faced, not just math-hammer or theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeghrefn Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It really seems like it depends who you are trying to fight and what the mission is - I have used this a couple of times to great effect, but other times it was basically suicide. Against guard or anyone who takes a lot of blast you will be in serious trouble. The times that it worked out well were generally objective games (lets face it, a ton of bolters just aren't that good at scoring KP against a typical mech force). I was able to run the 20 man squad into a ruin on top of an objective and just sit there firing long range at anyone who tried to get too close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I think that they're great fun. I run 20 'zerk squads, one time I was able to get 15 into close combat on the charge, 61 attacks completely obliterated that tac squad, they didn't stand a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Does anyone else have any data with regards to horde usage? By this I mean actually used or actually faced, not just math-hammer or theory. ive never used a 20 man squad myself, ive gone as high as 16 naked berserkers in a 3k point game, cant really tell a unis worth in a big meat grinder though i have however faced a 20 man CSM squad, had a fist and khorn icon.. i figured some softening up and a large squad of scout bikes could tarpit them for a few turns, but 3 attacks each even when being charged is immense.. totally floored my whole flank. that was before i was familiar with chaos.. i dont make those kind of mistakes anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techmarine Azuris Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 wouldnt it be 4 on the charge? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 wouldnt it be 4 on the charge? ;) yes indeed, makes a 150 point unit (before upgrades) a scary prospect.. tbh bigger units get more value from an icon, and the icon will live longer due to wound allocation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 tbh bigger units get more value from an icon, and the icon will live longer due to wound allocation I'm definitley finding this to be the case! Even the Nurgle Icon becomes cost effective when divided by 20. Just like the Icon, your Champion and Special/Heavy weapons also enjoy increased survivability. The flip side also becomes true. Because of your increased volume of fire there is a greater chance of taking out your opponent's heavies and champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 Results from last week's "research". Mine - 2 Tzeentch DP; 2*20 CSM Champ,Fist,Melta,Autocannon, Icon; 2*10 Terminators 2*Fist, 2*Reaper, Icon; Defiler His - 2 Nurgle DP; 2*Khorne in Rhino; 3*Nurgle in Rhino; 3*2 Obliterators Results - 8 to 2 in favour of the Horde! If I could just roll up a non-kill point mission it would be helpful, but so far the Horde dominates any KP mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 8-2 in games or 8-2 in killpoints? Because one game is hardly conclusive as evidence... And he almost have more scoring units than you have units, a non-killpoint mission would be to his advantage, surely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 8-2 in games or 8-2 in killpoints? Because one game is hardly conclusive as evidence... And he almost have more scoring units than you have units, a non-killpoint mission would be to his advantage, surely... Considering the maximal amount of Killpoints in the armies is 7 for the Horde and 10 for the non-Horde if I read things clearly... The Horde army did a pretty good job wiping pretty much all of the other army out. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 15 Kp for the non-horde, because of the rhinos... Though playing killpoints will favor a horde army because of the way it works. Try playing the other two types of games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 When is your next "research" game, Hiro? And any idea on what the scenario will be yet? Would love to get a larger pool with a variety of different game types to get to see how they do across the whole spectrum, but I understand that you're limited by the roll of the dice in the campaign you guys are playing in. Seems as though you are having fun and that's the ultimate goal in my opinion. B) Look forward to seeing more. ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted September 29, 2011 Author Share Posted September 29, 2011 15 Kp for the non-horde, because of the rhinos...Though playing killpoints will favor a horde army because of the way it works. Try playing the other two types of games... It was 8-2 in Kill Points which in one game isn't conclusive, but so far many games have ended this way. It goes basically like this... - Horde starts killing vehicles - Army must now slow down or arrive piecemeal - Horde destroys rest of vehicles - Battle to the end I wish I could get another mission, but until the campaign ends I'm stuck with what is rolled. Next game is on Tuesday. Spearhead, Annihilation vs Space Wolves. As I have no control over the missions I am trying to vary the Horde Builds that I'm using to test how or why some are more effective. Even some "weaker" choices start to look better as a horde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Victory for the Horde! :) Mine - Tzeentch DP, 2 * 20 Thousand Sons, Sorc w/ Doombolt, Melta Bombs, 2 * 10 Terminators w/ 2*Reaper, 2* Power Fist, Icon of Glory His - Thunder Lord, Wolf Priest, Logan Grimnar, 2 * 10 Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Wolf Claws, 3 Longfang Packs w/ 5*ML, 9 Fenrisian Wolves Final result was 6-3 for the Horde. At the end of turn 7 I had 13 (12+1) Sons and 6 Terminators, he had Thunder Lord, 2 Wolf Guard, wounded Wolf Priest. Now if only I could roll up an objective based mission... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Finally an objective based mission! Daemonic Invasion from the Battle Missions book. Four objectives, my army would be destroyed if it came within 6" of center, reserves come in from any table edge (plus the center for the "daemon"). Chaos Horde vs Blood Angels DP, 2 units of Noise marines kitted out, one unit of Chaos Marines kitted out with Glory Banner. Mephi, Termie Librarian, Hamernators unit, DC in Land Raider, 3? units of assault marines in rhinos with priests DRAW!!!! Best I could have hoped for! Next up is Capture and Control vs Necrons! Two objective based missions in a row?! Craziness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm glad this is working out so well for you. Its nice to see someone actually taking a non standard approach and having success with it. For what its worth, there was a topic in the tactica section about people who do full footslogging armies so you might want to chime in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I've run the 20 man Plaguemarine squad as well as 14. All it does is make them a big target. The worst thing is difficult terrain checks. You know how long it takes for 20 models to cross a large piece of difficult terrain? The squad gets all strung out and shot up. The optimal squad size if not 7, is definitely 10 or less in order to have the option of rhinos or landraiders as transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Here's a summary of what I've found so far. 1. Using just one big squad is a bad idea as it creates easy target priorities, using all large squads makes it more of a problem for the opponent. 2. Large templates are a pain, but staying at the 2" coherency helps to minimize this. 3. You have to be ready to lose models. Many are ready to lose 3-4 in a squad but then get squeamish when its 6-8 in a horde. You just have to remember that the attrition isn't different, just more localized. 4. Don't fight stuff you can't kill. Large squads are at serious risk of getting tarpitted if they don't come with the right gear. Plan ahead and try to avoid this. 5. Plan your work and then work to the plan. With limited squad numbers you can't afford to spend extra turns wandering between multiple objectives. Pick one and stick to it. 6. Despite what people say, they won't have twice as many squads as you (due to upgrade expenses). Due to transports however, they will have almost three times your Kill Points, which is the mission that you really shine in. 7. In objective based games, kill the troops first. Don't go for the win yourself, instead remove their ability to win and then try to claim some objectives. You just can't hold as many objectives as the other guy cause they've got more squads, but dead squads don't hold anything. 8. The onus of manuvering is actually on the other guy, not you. All things being equal they need to bring 2+ squads to bear on each of yours in order to win. Make this difficult by taking out transports, basically 1 out of every "team" coming at you. 9. A 20 man squad is not a big 10 man squad! They work very differently. If you treat your horde like a ten man squad with ten extra wounds it's not going to work well. 10. Have faith in the horde. They roll more dice than the other guy, and more dice means more chances for awsome to happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 9. A 20 man squad is not a big 10 man squad! They work very differently. If you treat your horde like a ten man squad with ten extra wounds it's not going to work well. Would you care to elaborate on this? How are you using them differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I gotta say thanks to ya Hiro for trying this out and posting your results. Ever since i switched form Orks (green tide type army) to Chaos i felt something was missing. and it is big blocks of troops. now too keep the kill points down what do you reccomend for supporting those blocks, i see you been using terminators, would some defilers work or they too easy to kill? or mabye oblits?.... im thinking of mabye a gross number of raptors with a icon of Tzeentch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 9. A 20 man squad is not a big 10 man squad! They work very differently. If you treat your horde like a ten man squad with ten extra wounds it's not going to work well. Would you care to elaborate on this? How are you using them differently? Mostly it comes down to breaking away from the "single task" mentality. Twenty man squads have to be able to multi-task more-so than a 10 man squad. You can't pigeon hole your units into tank hunters, horde suppression, close combat, distraction/bait style roles because you have too many points invested in them (as well as there being fewer of them) to have that luxury. 10 guys with 2 meltas chasing down transports is one thing, 20 guys doing the same thing is wasteful. My "standard" Horde unit is 20 Chaos Marines with Champion+Fist, Icon of Glory, Melta-gun, Autocannon. At 370 they are basically covering all of their bases. Long range firepower (for light transports), heavier punch for up-close (dreads and heavier tanks), horde suppression (18+ bolters anyone?), close combat (everyone has pistol/cc weapon + the fist) are all covered. Re-rolling the Ld10 for morale really helps too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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