Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 I gotta say thanks to ya Hiro for trying this out and posting your results. Ever since i switched form Orks (green tide type army) to Chaos i felt something was missing. and it is big blocks of troops. now too keep the kill points down what do you reccomend for supporting those blocks, i see you been using terminators, would some defilers work or they too easy to kill? or mabye oblits?.... im thinking of mabye a gross number of raptors with a icon of Tzeentch I'm glad that you're enjoying this thread. :D It's good to be able to help out. Defilers might be an idea, although I'm trying to stay away from using vehicles as much as possible. This helps to minimize the effectiveness of your opponent's heavy weapons. With no high cost vehicles on the board it's much harder for them to make back their points. I've toyed with the idea of using a Raptor horde but two words have kept me from fielding them...landing zones. It can be really tricky to find a place that 20 models can land safely without having to bunch up into a nice template friendly formation. One unit I've used is the 20 Possessed with the Nurgle Icon. 20 guys with 5S, 5T, 2 attacks, 3+/5+, and Fearless can do pretty well. Now they are a HUGE point sink and I wouldn't use them usually, but they can be fun every once in a while. As a small bonus, because they are on foot, rolling Scout for a power actually does something as it helps to get them across the board. Be sure to let us all know what you go with, and how it's working out! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 As for the results from my last "research" game vs the Necrons. Victory for Chaos! :D In this battle the Necron was also trying out a "Horde" style army. What we learned is that close combat is where the Horde is at its most vulnerable. This isn't to say that a Horde is weak in combat, but it is where bad things can happen. In this case it was when my two Daemon Princes (one at a time, in two different combats) assaulted the 20 man Necron squads. In both cases the Princes dominated the combat and the Necrons had to make Morale checks at a much lowered Leadership. Needless to say they were run down and wiped out. Unless your "Horde" is fearless, care must be taken to protect them from being on the losing side of combat. Avoid engaging hardcore assault troops unless absolutely necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 would IoT be a bad way to go as far as icons go, getting that many guys into cover, espcially since they dont move that fast, would be tuff, or do you feel the number of bodies is plenty of extra defence? what im trying to figure out is how to make a hode style army to fight my friends greyknight termies (super cheez). my orks have no problem as they are a horde and just swamp them. but between the low model count and the anti chaos/ i win rules of the GK ive never even been close to winning with my chaos. might try one lord/ sorc then the rest just marines. i bet he wouldnt have enough fire power to kill em all. a couple of big units of TS or DG then a big unit of zerkers..... im thinking that might work. an all troop choice chaos army. it would still have alot of punch and make alot of special rules and special weapon choices from other army lists a waste of points. Lord w/ 130 MoT, P weapon, Melta bombs, tl bolter Dread w/ CCW + H. flamer 105 Dread w/ CCW + H. flamer 105 20 marine w/ IoCG, Champ w/ fist, Melta, Auto-cannon, 370 20 marine w/ IoCG, Champ w/ fist, Melta, Auto-cannon, 370 18 Zerker, champ w/ P Fist 418 1498 pts how do you think something like this would work, the zerkers could very easily be changed for some plague marines and the Dreads dropped for some oblits or some such but i think a crazed charge of the dreads and Zerks backed up by 40 marines would be a nice lil horde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Biggest problem I have with IoTz is that you lose the LD reroll from IoCG. Now you are stuck with "just" LD10. One could argue that a 5++ save might help you take less damage and therefore less LD checks but in the end I would feel safer knowing my guys are more likely to stay and not cut and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 that makes sence. im also thinking that plague marines would be a better choice than zerkers as they would last longer in a fight and the whole idea of the hoard is to win a battle of attrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 It would be interesting to run the numbers, 20 plague marines vs 20 berzerkers and see who comes out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 against each other i think they'd be close to equal... one is defensive the other offensive. both against another CC type infantry, .... PMs should (in theory) last longer (good in my opinion, as while locked in CC they cant be shot up), but the fight would end faster for the Zerkers. the PMs can also take more hits on the way to the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 For footslogging and without running the numbers, my gut instinct is to give it to the plague marines. My reasoning really comes down to charging. Berserkers need to get that charge in if they want to maximize damage, this is true of any unit with furious charge but getting the charge reliably without transports or fleet is difficult. Plague marines on the other hand benefit little from charging and are almost always better served rapid firing into an opponent and then getting charged themselves because of blight grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 I definitely agree with minigun762 that the re-roll on leadership is a must. We can't afford to have our big blocks running off due to one bad roll. I'd only go with one of the "cult" icons on the Possessed because they're already fearless. Plague marines probably aren't the best choice versus Grey Knights. Power weapons plus Hammerhand basically takes away everything you're paying for. Attrition vs power weapons actually has the 'zerkers ahead. Khorne: 60 attacks - 40 hit - 20 wounds (3.3 dead) vs. 20 attacks - 10 hit - 5 dead....4:1 wound ratio (1.5 zerkers per termie after saves) Nurgle: 40 attacks - 20 hit - 10 wounds (1.6 dead) vs. 20 attack - 10 hit - 3.3 dead...3:1 wound ratio (2.06 Nurgle per termie after saves) *above only uses base stats and assumes no charging or upgrades* edit - added "after saves" info to above Not knowing what your Grey Knight friend fields it's kind of hard to give advice but here's a list idea (based off your original). 18 Berzerkers - Champ w/Fist - 418 20 CSM - Champ w/Fist, Icon, Meltagun, Autocannon - 370 20 CSM - Champ w/Fist, Icon, Meltagun, Autocannon - 370 Khorne Lord w/ Juggernaut, Pair of Lightning Claws, Combi-Melta - 170 Khorne Lord w/ Juggernaut, Pair of Lightning Claws, Combi-Melta - 170 Total - 1498 Put each Lord into one of the CSM squads for some extra killyness! No vehicles, no psykers, no daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 LOL that looks like fun! i think ill have to proxy up some juggernauts... lol anyone know what kind of base they use? cave/ bike base or a dread base? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalricus Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The GW juggernaut kits include 60mm. round bases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 11, 2011 Author Share Posted December 11, 2011 LOL that looks like fun! i think ill have to proxy up some juggernauts... lol anyone know what kind of base they use? cave/ bike base or a dread base? Glad you like the idea. :) One thing to think about when using this though is that the Berzerkers are actually there to support the CSMs, not the other way around. If the Berzerkers run off on their own the other two squads won't have enough long range firepower to support them effectively. You want to force the opponent to come to you and then hit them with a 1-2 punch, either absorbing the charge and then bringing in the Berzerkers or (preferably) rapid-firing with the CSMs before the Berzerkers rush in. (by the math only 1 terminator out of a 10 man squad would survive [and this disregards the Berzerker's Powerfist]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Next "research" game won't be until the new year unfortunately. :D It's going to be 2000pts Chaos Horde vs. Eldar in the Tyranid "First Contact" mission from the Battle Missions book. Six objectives, any non-vehicle can hold, random deployment (D6 roll). Any ideas? Let the brainstorming begin! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 i tried this idea the other night and it rocked! this is the list i built and i played a friends Nid list and a GK list. i kinda felt sorry for him. I knew what 2 armies my firend had but didnt know what army i was going to face or how many games we were gonna play so i tried to make an all comers psudo horde/ chaoszilla list. anyway, we got 2 in one vs the nicds and one vs the Grey cheese. His nid list was alot of lil guys w/ the thing that buffs them and some CC based big monsters. totally killed them. I sat back (except my dreads which i threw up the gut) and shot him to hell. the nids barely hurt me and i won that game . The GKs were a MUCH harder fight but i won as we we had 2 objectives and i controlled one and contested teh other. I sat one of my marine units on my home objective with the oblits for support and launched everything else at his other objective. He was using an almost all termie list. his list was TINY. i think he put on too many bells and whistles. Dreadnaught CC weapons rocked against these guys and he couldnt kill allmy stuff fast enough to get me off of his objective. i will say this I HATE MULTI WOUND TERMIES all with different gear. took forever too kill some of those. I know his lists were not optomised but neither were mine and we did probably both get a few rules wrong but i really like the chaos horde feeling. this list is not too bad. i kinda want to try it againt some Wolves or some other anti armor army and see how long my defilers and Dreads last. lol Lord w/ Combi melta 100 Dreadnaught w/ 2 CCW & H Flamer 105 Dreadnaught w/ 2 CCW & H Flamer 105 20 Marines w/ IoCU, Champ w/ PF, melta, AC 370 20 marines w/ IoCU, Champ w/ PF, melta, AC 370 Defiler w/ 3 CCW & RAC 150 Defiler w/ 3 CCW & RAC 150 2 Obliterators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 Interesting list! It kind of reminds me of an Ork "Kan-wall" army. Did you find that the Horde and masses of walkers worked well together? I've been mostly focusing on the "bodies on the field" aspect of The Horde and haven't taken a hard look at adding mech to the list. It's worth thinking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 This thread is distilled hobby radness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Hiro: I think it worked for me because im familiar with playing the Ork Kan wall (my first army is Orks) and that i had a good match up against tyranids. His MC vs My dreads and Defilers no contest. and he couldn't kill my troops fast enough. Neither of us play super crazy tourny style play. I think they key to playing this type of list to concentrate on neutering any units that can claim objectives first and then work on the other stuff. Against the Grey KNights i think i got lucky, he is a newer player and doesnt read forums to improve his tactics. He just kinda threw his guys forward while i concentrated all fire on one unit at a time while moving one of the marine units behind the dreads. had he concentrated fire he would have popped my walkers early and crippled me. but i think he got intimidated by a sea of PA troops walking to kick his butt. The FLeet rule on the defilers helped me to get them stuck into combat where they were safe from the Psi-cheese ammo. the oblits against both list were great as they helped to zap anything i didnt want to get close to me. THis list is really about rushing forward and being agressive. thanks for starting up this thread i hope to hear more bout your games Hiro. In hindsite i think against a guard mech list or SW missile spam i would be toast. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 In hindsite i think against a guard mech list or SW missile spam i would be toast. lol This is why I like the Thousand Sons / Terminators setup that I've mentioned before. Versus missle spam the Sons still get a 4+ and the terminators have their 2+. It is weak against "heavy" tanks but standard mech transports don't pose much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerryrich Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 very true. i think w/ our codex we dont get a good solution (damn codex creep). i have another list that i want to try. it uses plague marines or Thousand sons. its smaller but they have much better "stayability" might have to proxxy some termies to give your way a shot. happy holidays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Victory for the Horde! :D Mine - Tzeentch DP, 2 * 20 Thousand Sons, Sorc w/ Doombolt, Melta Bombs, 2 * 10 Terminators w/ 2*Reaper, 2* Power Fist, Icon of Glory His - Thunder Lord, Wolf Priest, Logan Grimnar, 2 * 10 Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Wolf Claws, 3 Longfang Packs w/ 5*ML, 9 Fenrisian Wolves Final result was 6-3 for the Horde. At the end of turn 7 I had 13 (12+1) Sons and 6 Terminators, he had Thunder Lord, 2 Wolf Guard, wounded Wolf Priest. Now if only I could roll up an objective based mission... How Many points was this? also what points level would you say was the best for hoardes? I am now really keen to try a big 15-20 man sized thousand son unit, A quick think is a list like this for 2000pts Sorcerer Zarathustra with MOT, Warptime, Bolt of Change and melta bombs 185pts Chaos Dreadnought with Plasma cannon and missile launcher 115pts Thousand Son Squad 14 Rubrics and aspiring sorcerer bolt of change and melta bombs 412pts Thousand Son Squad 9 rubrics with sorcerer with Bolt of change and melta bombs and Rhino with Havok launcher 347pts 15 Chaos marines with plasma gun, Missile launcher, Mark of Tzeentch and Aspiring champion with power fist 405pts 2 X Chaos predators with Autocannon and lascannon sponsons 260pts 5 Havoks with 4 Autocannons 155pts 1954pts Not sure what to spend the remaining 46pts on, perhaps drop one of the predators to take a largish termi squad with reaper or heavy flamer with a load of combi plasmas?have never dona chaos hoarde before, and it's said 20 man is different to ten man squads (but I can't fit a twenty strong thousand sons squad) or should I just try to spend those spare points on more thousand sons? my reguler opponents are eldar, blood angels and there are necron players I want to play against, how would this proberbly fare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 26, 2011 Author Share Posted December 26, 2011 Victory for the Horde! :) Mine - Tzeentch DP, 2 * 20 Thousand Sons, Sorc w/ Doombolt, Melta Bombs, 2 * 10 Terminators w/ 2*Reaper, 2* Power Fist, Icon of Glory His - Thunder Lord, Wolf Priest, Logan Grimnar, 2 * 10 Wolf Guard Terminators w/ Wolf Claws, 3 Longfang Packs w/ 5*ML, 9 Fenrisian Wolves Final result was 6-3 for the Horde. At the end of turn 7 I had 13 (12+1) Sons and 6 Terminators, he had Thunder Lord, 2 Wolf Guard, wounded Wolf Priest. Now if only I could roll up an objective based mission... How Many points was this? also what points level would you say was the best for hoardes? I am now really keen to try a big 15-20 man sized thousand son unit, A quick think is a list like this for 2000pts Sorcerer Zarathustra with MOT, Warptime, Bolt of Change and melta bombs 185pts Chaos Dreadnought with Plasma cannon and missile launcher 115pts Thousand Son Squad 14 Rubrics and aspiring sorcerer bolt of change and melta bombs 412pts Thousand Son Squad 9 rubrics with sorcerer with Bolt of change and melta bombs and Rhino with Havok launcher 347pts 15 Chaos marines with plasma gun, Missile launcher, Mark of Tzeentch and Aspiring champion with power fist 405pts 2 X Chaos predators with Autocannon and lascannon sponsons 260pts 5 Havoks with 4 Autocannons 155pts 1954pts Not sure what to spend the remaining 46pts on, perhaps drop one of the predators to take a largish termi squad with reaper or heavy flamer with a load of combi plasmas?have never dona chaos hoarde before, and it's said 20 man is different to ten man squads (but I can't fit a twenty strong thousand sons squad) or should I just try to spend those spare points on more thousand sons? my reguler opponents are eldar, blood angels and there are necron players I want to play against, how would this proberbly fare? It was a 2000 point battle although our campaign rules gave the Space Wolf extra points (+200? don't remember / no codex here for the math) I haven't been able to establish a "best" point value for The Horde as of yet. They've been solid in the 1500 - 2000 range and look like they would still be fine down to 1000 or so. Higher numbers are hard to say as there becomes more and more possibility for variation on both sides (plus our weaker Fast Attack options limit where we can put points effectively). As for the effectiveness of your proposed list...it's hard to say, mostly because I don't know what your opponents' "standard" lists would look like. Here are a few suggestions based off my experiences with those armies. > Try to max out ALL units in the army (as in max number of bodies). I don't think a few extra guys out-weighs the loss of a transport. > If they don't use "heavy" tanks then Autocannons are always the way to go. > Leadership is key for the Horde, I only use the Icon of Glory. > I wouldn't use Bolt in a Thousand Sons squad as if you are using it to pop tanks then 19 Sons are just wasting their shots. So there are a few suggestions. I don't want to start "tweaking" people's lists though because that might send the wrong message. I don't want people to start getting the impression that I feel that I know what works better than them. We're all learning here and I just want to try and help. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Bolt is the one I've had the most success due to normally my sons are in small units, though in the case of Hoardes it might be best to take wind or warptime. I know Doombol is cheep, but I have never found it to be that effective, all it does is add more s:4 AP:3 shots, which is not what you need. Have you found Hoards of Havoks to be any good? plenty of bullet shields, and could be usefull in just ensuring your home objective is not taken by the enemy (if you have it near/on with a troops choice, or in kill points the amount of bolters mean that combined with autocannons (what I run mine with) They would be a threat to light vehicle squadrens and light transports, as well as just painfull to infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 27, 2011 Author Share Posted December 27, 2011 Actually, with a Sons horde I usually take Doombolt and then not even use it. :( Sounds stupid I know, but I just don't want to risk having 19 guys only moving D6 a turn if he pops himself. I have used the Havok Horde (with Autocannons) before and found it to be quite effective. The only problems I found were that they aren't scoring (which you mentioned) and that if you roll up Dawn of War then you have alot of heavy weapons that aren't doing their thing until turn 2 or higher. That second reason is why I started testing the 10 Terminators w/2*Reaper squads. They have less volume of fire than the Havoks but they are Twin-Linked, Relentless, sporting the ol' 2+/5+ and power weapons. At 380 (with 2 Fists and an Icon) I favor them somewhat over the 430 for the Havoks. That being said I still think that the Havoks are a solid choice. Some feel that the extra bodies are a waste in a Havok squad but I disagree. The Autocannons do their job out at 48" popping transports and the like, and if they've done their job then any enemies that do finally close with you can be dealt with through massed bolter fire and/or a mass charge (because our havoks all still have Pistol / Close Combat Weapon). I wouldn't use Meltas or Plasma with them though because their shorter range (compared to the other heavy weapons) means spending too much time walking before their presence is felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 How does csm hordes stand up against IG lists?, i would like to know cause Ork hordes tend to die quickly against it (fastest defeat of a horde list was decimated by the start turn 3, and that wasnt even tooled up to deal with specific types of lists) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro_Protagonist Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Unfortunately I haven't been able to test against IG. :( Nobody in my normal gaming circle plays them and tournies are too sporatic to find one there. We've got: Chaos (Death Guard), Chaos (Thousand Sons), Chaos (Horde), Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necron, Orks (Kan Wall), Orks (Green Tide), Space Wolves (Various Builds), Blood Angels (Various Builds) So there's a wide range for me to test against, but there are a few holes in the sample groups. Hopefully others out there can help to take up the torch and test the Horde against those missing armies! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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