Frag cannon rending

[Atrix]

Something I hadn't really thought about crossed my mind today during a game. When using a frag cannon on a vehicle and getting an armour penetration due to rending--is the hit considered AP - still?

 

For the record, the rending rules state that

"Any roll to wound of 6 with a rending weapon

automatically causes a wound, regardless of the target's

Toughness, and counts as AP2. Against vehicles, an

armour penetration roll of 6 allows a further D3 to be

rolled, with the result added to the total score."

[Sokhar]

By the reading of that rule, I'd say that any hit that rends wouldn't count as AP -, it would be AP 2. Not too bad at hitting vehicles then, kinda like a really short-ranged assault cannon in terms of output. The one thing I've found template weapons useful for, as anti-vehicle shooting goes, is nailing speeders/skimmers that moved flat out. They count as obscured and thus get a cover save, but templates don't allow for cover saves.

[Atrix]

The frag cannon nets 0.33, 022 and 0.11 penetrating hits against AP 12, 13 and 14, respectively. This is the same as a single las cannon will give. With some clever positioning, it might also be possible to hit several targets with the frag cannon.

 

My concern is that the rule say AP2 is for a roll to wound of a 6. The sentence after that states what happens in the case of a vehicle, and it just states that that you add a D3 armour penetration. I believe the most reasonable interpretation in gaming terms is that AP2 goes for vehicles as well.

 

Excellent point about the cover save by the way, I have to remember that for tanks that have popped smoke as well.

[nurglez]

I'd say no, it stays as AP-, as to wound is not the same as armour penetration.

[dswanick]

Actually, the most reasonable reading is that a a rending weapon adds a further d3 to the Armor Penetration roll. And that is all. It is still AP -.

A Rending Wound ignores armor and counts as AP 2 (ie: for the purpose of Feel No Pain), but vehicles don't suffer wounds.

[Eorek]

RaW vs RaI... Personally I think that it counts as ap 2 vs veichles aswell.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

It would be AP- still. As pointed out earlier, you do not roll to wound a vehicle, hence you cannot roll a 6 to wound and gain AP2.

[Atrix]

Actually, the most reasonable reading is that a a rending weapon adds a further d3 to the Armor Penetration roll. And that is all. It is still AP -.

A Rending Wound ignores armor and counts as AP 2 (ie: for the purpose of Feel No Pain), but vehicles don't suffer wounds.

 

I agree as far as RAW goes. However, I would not agree that this the most reasonable way to interpret the rule as a whole, since it was likely made without considering the possibility of an AP- rending weapon. Since--to my knowledge--all previous rending weapon have an AP value, it simply did not matter.

 

I might add, I've played it by RAW so far.

[AbusePuppy]

The rules are quite clear- against a vehicle, Rending weapons always maintain their original AP value, which in this case means the Frag Cannon will have the -1 on the damage chart due to being AP-. I have no doubt this was intentional, as it's supposed to be an anti-infantry weapons, not an anti-vehicle one. If you play it differently in your games... *shrug* your choice, I suppose, but there is no ambiguity in the rules on the subject.

[Sokhar]

Assault Cannons are meant to be anti-infantry weapons as well. I'll agree that you probably have a point on the wording of the ruling, but you're giving GW way too much credit on what they supposedly intend when they write rules, Puppy. As pointed out, the frag cannon is the first rending weapon to not have an AP value, so there would have been no point in clarifying that specific situation in the rulebook which was written way before the BA codex came out. Was the Frag Cannon made AP - so it wouldn't likely damage vehicles? Maybe. Though honestly I'd say it was probably just to keep it from being a total "Screw you!" to all infantry models.

[AbusePuppy]

That's actually incorrect regarding the unique statline- Flesh Hooks on Lictors/Deathleaper are also AP- Rending weapons. (In fact, they are similarly S6 to boot.)

 

The only real difference between, say, AP6 and AP- on the Frag Cannon would've been that the current statline is poor against vehicles; realistically, 6+ armor offers no protection to the bearer. I think you're giving GW too little credit on their rules design- while it's hardly been perfect, Matt Ward is a guy who understands the consequences of most of the choices he makes when writing a book and doesn't just throw units on paper and call it a day. AP- is virtually always a specific design choice made to have the weapon be exclusively anti-infantry, as only a vanishingly small number of weapons actually have it.