Stormravens?

[Toasterfree]

This is a two part question, and its one of those no right or wrong answer questions. It is not a fact or fiction, it is what it is. We are going to tackle one part at a time, and I am going to ask for some clarification on somethings that confuse me about 5th as we go. AGAIN THERE ARE NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWERS. If you are going to post that your way is the only way to do things, PLEASE DO NOT POST.

 

To be full and clear about the first part of the question, this is a TACTICAL question. The STRATEGIC part will be answered ONCE the TACTICAL side gets handled. And yes, there is a huge difference.

 

TACTICALLY what is the best way to field storm ravens? A wing (which for the purposes of 40k would be three) or a squad (two). They are fragile and would need some redundancy, at least I think. I think one off you are just asking for a shoot down on turn one and have no more flying truck.

[Olis]

If we're talking redundancy here then I'd vouch for quantity - three over two. Unless, of course, you run out of points to do so. And yes, fielding one is just asking for trouble. :)

[Toasterfree]

i think i want to wait to see if there is a consensus before putting up part two.

[Olis]

:)

 

I was wondering if you'd wait. I would, too.

[jeffersonian000]

One = Target

Two = Tactic

Three = Strategy

 

A simply rule of thumb, which functionally means that one will be the target of every weapon on the board that can be brought into range on it, with the intent of removing it from play as soon as possible. Two forces your opponent to either focus on one while the other does it's thing, or split fire between the two which improves the chances of both surviving to do their thing. Three means you have a strategy for how you plan to use them, because you chose to spend points on a third instead of another unit in your army, which gives even more target saturation at the lose of other potential units in your army which in turn means that your opponent will be forced to deal with three doing their thing until at least one bites the dust.

 

This simple rule of thumb works for all high point units, not just Stormravens (or Land Raiders, which is where I used it the most).

 

SJ

[Toasterfree]

ok i think that works for me. It is kinda the same rule of thumb when using the smaller trucks. (target priority)

 

now the STRATEGIC part of the thread and where I am going to need some clarification.

 

how to arm these suckers.......

 

i like weight of fire (for me HB AC and hurricane bolters) maybe taking a MM on it since I wont have a lot of points to spend on other things (dreads). this is going to be a bit more of an opinion question till I get to where I need clarification. My brain for vehicles is still stuck somewhere in 3rd. Meaning more and fire 1, or dont and fire all. As far as the speed of vehicles if it was fast move and fire 2 or dont and fire one. Can someone PLEASE translate the speed of vehicles (with out regards of defensive) for me?

[Red Lost Soldier]

For shooting and GK Stormravens, basically, move up to 12" fire two main and all defensive (which can be everything unless you have psybolt hurricanes), or move up to 24" and fire one weapon.

 

I always take the TL MM over the twin HB, since the rest of the codex does SB and HB fire so well, and the rest of the codex also lacks fast moving melta. I like Lascannons secondary, but definitely see uses for TL PC or TL AC. I don't like spending any more points on an already expensive vehicle, so I usually skip Typhoons and Hurricanes.

 

Taking one Stormraven is definitely viable, it depends on the rest of your list. Redundancy is having other vehicles so that enemy AT fire has to choose targets. Avoidance is using the Stormravens superior mobility to keep out of firing lanes. Reserves is useful for when you lose first turn against a long range firepower army, in which case Communion helps immensly. For example I run one Stormraven often with Psyflemens dreads, Chimerae, and sometimes a Land Raider for redundancy, try to suppress one flank of enemy AT firepower to give the Stormraven a side of the board to play with largely uncontested, and often reserve it to make sure I'm always gettting cover save, and it makes the enemy nervous about when and where my Stormraven will actually come on, giving me room to play on my side of the board. It doesn't have to be on the board to have an effect.

 

How you use the Stormraven will largely depend on what you put inside. DCA make a fantastic assault unit though will suffer if it crashes. Purifiers do similar, but cost a great deal more. Small GKT and Paladin units are more multi task but are always great to have in the enemies back lines. Adding a IC is tempting, but drives the payload cost up to insane levels. Bringing a Dreadnought along for the ride is great too, but I would consider it more if the other unit inside is cheap. Once you put too many points into it, you've taken too much from the rest of your army.

 

Lastly never plan on putting combat squads inside. This restricts your plans immensly. I used to take a 10 man GKT squad, and combat squad to put them in. Problem is you either have to deploy it on the table, or spend two turns once your Stormraven arrives on the table picking up the payload. This is due to combat squading only being done on deployment, and you cannot move flat out on a turn you either embark or disembark a friendly unit (outside of shadow skies).

[Toasterfree]

And the reason why 24 and shoot one is PoTMS? correct?

 

I like the idea of reserving it. That may make me consider one for friendly play, although I am not sure I want to give up my wolves for competitive. I wish the GK storm raven was a scout like the BA one though :D

[nurglez]

the blood angel's one doesn't have scout, unless I'm remembering wrong...

[thade]

Pretty sure it does not; no codex in hand atm though.

 

With regards to how many to field, see Lancaster's Square Law (which has more or less already been summarized). That said, a solitary SR isn't necessarily value-less if you also have something else on the field to draw fire. E.G. If your opponent is already sweating while shooting at an approaching Paladin Deathstar, that lone SR DSing in may not draw enough fire to take it down.

 

As for armament, I'm torn between MM and LC. MM seems nice for anti-armor hitting power and the SR will be close much of the time...LC means as the SR is moving around full-tilt to maintain it's cover save, it'll still be able to rip off pot-shots regardless of its position. Depending on how spread out your opponent is, the MM may still be valuable (i.e. strafing runs on pairs of targets).

 

A few things that you might want to consider for this discussion:

• The value of a Librarian with Shrouding riding around in a SR.
  
• What kind of contents vs an empty gun-ship?
  

[Toasterfree]

the blood angel's one doesn't have scout, unless I'm remembering wrong...

Well I am a dumb ;)

It would be better said like a vendetta or valk.

 

I will look into the square law thing. I would like to have a sr didn't think of the libby. Contents was thinking maybe a SS or something with WQ to keep things moving

[thade]

Honestly I would probably stick something light and inexpensive in the SR too; a Strike Squad rocking Warp Quake from within might be helpful in expected ways. I wonder if Interceptors behave like Blood Angels Jump Infantry in their bird; anything like "Skies of Blood" for the GK? Dex is on my desk at home.

[KnowThyEnemy]

funny that you mention the deathstar, thats how i got my stormraven to survive as a single against a pretty shooty guard list this past game.

 

i think the weapons debate should be auto take on the MM and then your choice between TL-LC or TL-PC. for my meta, im thinking plasma cannon works better for a multi role vehicle. melta for vehicles and plasma for those pesky long fang squads. the issue is your range required to use the melta effectively (i.e. inside of 12"), so id recommend using that weapon combo to pick off the stragglers and for annoyance. most competant players won't leave their pricey heavy things out in no mans land, waiting to be blown up

 

i think 2 is a good number. going with 3 will cut a little deep into your point value and i think its easier to move 2 around succesfully than it is 3, especially if your trying to use the shrouding for that 3+ cover. im going to be rocking 2 with 10 DCA in each, reason being is its now a 24" scoring unit threat, has good survivabilty against melta (4+ cover helps too), good anti tank and elite (with my above weapon load out) and can drop off a pretty mean unit to do some wrecking if need be. some may say thatd be a waste of points to have the DCA/crusaders sit there all game, but i look at it like this: if you know theres dca in there, how close do you really want to get ;).

[Brother Captain Vain]

Well, considering i just bought my Stormraven and have yet to build it, im not sure how it would play on the field.

 

However, the rules on teleport homers and moving flat out do NOT conflict, meaning (and i checked) that as long as the Raven is on the board, you can move flat out in the previous turn and then deep strike next to it wherever you place the raven. So turn one, move flat out; Turn 2, Deep Strike; Turn 3, PURGE THE DAEMONS/XENOS?HERETIC/ETC!

 

If i've learn ANYTHING from fielding Dreads is that 2 is always better than 1. It goes back to the tank squared rule, a tank's effectiveness is increased to 4x when a seconded tank works in concert with it rather than two. You get twice the firepower and twice the survivability. Its expensive, but no more than taking two land raiders.

 

That's my 2 cents on the subject. ill include more once ive fielded a couple of times.

[Toasterfree]

[*] The value of a Librarian with Shrouding riding around in a SR.

 

 

Honestly I would probably stick something light and inexpensive in the SR too; a Strike Squad rocking Warp Quake from within might be helpful in expected ways. I wonder if Interceptors behave like Blood Angels Jump Infantry in their bird; anything like "Skies of Blood" for the GK? Dex is on my desk at home.

so would you say run two libbys and 2 5 man GKST in these?

[thade]

Uuumm, no, I wouldn't recommend more than one Librarian. The tactical flexibility and combat-savvy of a GM is far too tempting. Also, even reasonably equipped Librarians are pretty expensive.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I would like to mearly mirror what has already been said. Being the borderling decent player that I am, I played several games with a single SR and it was targeted and blowed up by turn three nearly every game. So I tried two SR, that worked better but the opponent I was playing against mostly at that time played a Wave Serpent Phalanx list that blew them both up early game, every game. So I moved to three SR (proxying one), this just pushed my army into a points level that I was unprepared, and unequipped to handle. BUT, I did notice that the more targets my opponent had, especially moderately nasty flying truck ones, the longer they survived and where able to achieve the goals I wanted them to achieve.

 

So, yeah. I agree that the more the merrier!!

 

End of Line

[Toasterfree]

Didnt think so was just askin

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Meh, instead of a Stormraven, take three las/plas Razorbacks. Why?

 

- Razorbacks can be loaded with combat squads, either to make them scoring, or to deliver scoring psycannon campers to an objective

- Razorbacks bring three hulls, three lascannons and three twin plasma guns

- Each one has to be blown up seperately, as supressing them doesn't work (oh 'Fortitude', you so broken)

 

Best part is, you can make them work to support your foot-slogging advance with the Terminator/Paladin Deathstar. They can also be used for providing cover to your PsyDreads and other squads (Strike/Purifier combat squads packing double psycannon).

 

Stormraven is a nice toy, but in an expensive army with little to no other armour (two Dreads won't be enough to deter them just unloading into it), taking an expensive gunship isn't that great. Blood Angels get away with it because their assault units are geared towards combat only, and are cheaper (and they can spam both Ravens and AV13 much better). Not to mention they get free anti-tank missiles on every Raven (whereas we get the very underwhelming psy-frag alternative the Ad Mech shipped by mistake).

 

If you're really keen on it, run it with twin multi-melta and twin lascannon (they're not mutually exclusive options btw), pack it full of your nasiest combat unit (full squad of Purifiers/Paladin combat squad), attach Tech-Marine w/warding stave+crazy nades, hold in Reserve. Bring on when you want it with 'Communion' from Grandmaster, dump them into enemy lines to support your Interceptors/Dreadknight flanking attack.

[Toasterfree]

While I like the plazorback I am trying to get a different feel from my space wolves. I generally run 1 plazorback with them and am going to be taking 1 plus a TLLC at a tourney this weekend. (where I plan on screening my dread with one).

 

I am not looking to make GK my next tourney army I love my sw to much to keep them as a fun list only. I am more looking for something diff to play that if I wanted to take to a tourney wouldn't be the same ole pop the armor 11 fest as plazorback or rhino rush.

 

The idea of holding in reserves gives me the idea that I would need a gm and a Libby on the table turn 1 to get my SRs in on turn two for sure (barring the dreaded 1). Hmmm, may look into that.

[breng77]

Meh, instead of a Stormraven, take three las/plas Razorbacks.

 

ummmm... first off 3 Las plas are 240 points (35 more expensive than the SR). Second they can never transport a GK HQ(aside from inquisitors/BHC) which means if all you have are razorbacks you are slogging your Libby/GM if you want one. Third the SR is a much better transport for getting a Hammer unit into the fray (since IMO a RB can never hold a hammer unit). It all comes down to style of play. I find Las Plas to be ineffective in a GK army simply because you cannot field enough of them to ensure durability (squads are too expensive unless you are running henchmen, to sit back in a RB). That is not to say you cannot be successful or that a SR is always better, but I have had great success running a single SR, using it a transport. I also disagree on the BA point about their squads being just good at CC, if that is the case then when the SR goes down it matters more, for GKs if it makes it to midfield before dying it does just fine. If you go first it will do what it needs to do, if you go second often reserving it is going to be the best choice.

[Brother Valerius]

Honestly I would probably stick something light and inexpensive in the SR too; a Strike Squad rocking Warp Quake from within might be helpful in expected ways. I wonder if Interceptors behave like Blood Angels Jump Infantry in their bird; anything like "Skies of Blood" for the GK? Dex is on my desk at home.

 

Yes. GK Stormravens have "Shadow Skies", which I'm given to understand is exactly like "Skies of Blood".

[Reclusiarch Darius]

ummmm... first off 3 Las plas are 240 points (35 more expensive than the SR).

 

I drop the heavy psycannon off my Dreadknight when I do the swap. Done and done ^_^

 

Second they can never transport a GK HQ(aside from inquisitors/BHC) which means if all you have are razorbacks you are slogging your Libby/GM if you want one.

 

Or Deepstriking. Because y'know, they have that as a transportation option built in. I'd rather use Deepstrike than pay at least the cost of the squad again for a vehicle that will just get focus-fired to death. FYI I do footslog, and it's rarely been an issue. Just make sure your meatshield is suitably tough (Paladin combat squad per IC, or Terminator blob with Librarian).

 

Third the SR is a much better transport for getting a Hammer unit into the fray (since IMO a RB can never hold a hammer unit).

 

That gets shot down the same turn it delivers said hammer. I've had a few proxy games with a Valkyrie from my Guard list (still assembling the Stormraven, I like the model, rules are a bit...), and AV12 breaks under focus fire. Melta immunity doesn't mean anything to autocannon-krak missile type fire. Just Deepstrike off a servo-skull dude, does the same job, you don't mind so much about sitting around shooting for a turn (because psycannons are actually decent firepower, and you should have two per squad), and you can re-allocate those points towards something the army needs more.

 

I find Las Plas to be ineffective in a GK army simply because you cannot field enough of them to ensure durability (squads are too expensive unless you are running henchmen, to sit back in a RB).

 

You don't need to sit anyone in the Razorbacks, unless you're moving them to where they need to be. Like Dreadnoughts, their role is pure support; dump long range anti-transport/monster fire downrange to soften up what the psycannons can't reach for two turns. In objective missions, between combat squads, the Terminator blob and your GM making the Dreadnoughts scoring (never gets old that trick :P ), it's unusual you won't have enough scoring units to control enough objectives. Even in the the worst-case 'Seize Ground' scenario of 5 objectives, three planted by your opponent (because he won first turn), just hold both of yours with two units apiece, then contest two of his (or at least one for a draw).

 

Grey Knights don't use Razorbacks the way Space Wolves or Blood Angels do (hiding pathetic combat squads inside). Razorbacks are fire support on the cheap, our way of getting pseudo-Predators into an army that lacks 48" firepower.

 

I also disagree on the BA point about their squads being just good at CC, if that is the case then when the SR goes down it matters more, for GKs if it makes it to midfield before dying it does just fine. If you go first it will do what it needs to do, if you go second often reserving it is going to be the best choice.

 

Their squads are just as good, if not better in close-combat than us. They have more attacks, and on the charge if you don't slow them down with 'Sanctuary', they will rip through Strike squads and Dreadknights/Dreadnoughts with impunity. Terminator blob, Paladin combat squads and Purifiers can bloody them up with halberds, 'Hammerhand', 'Cleansing Flame' and so on (Librarian support is crucial here), but you won't have enough of them at any point level. BA bring close-combat everywhere, from their cheap and nasty Assault squads+Priest combo, to Vanguard Veterans, Assault Terminators and Death Company.

 

If they blow it up mid-field, yes it hurts less (because you have psycannon dakka to pour into them), but they're not where you planned to be. You can't just throw units at enemy lines without support (even Dreadknights can't solo for long, they get shot to hell in two turns), and barring a significant investment in Stormravens, you can't transport friendly units to the same location for a co-ordinated strike. More to the point, there is no rush to engage the enemy in combat; we pay so much per model because we shoot up a target first, then stab the survivors to death in combat.

 

The problem with Reserving the transport+squad is that you're sending something like 400-500 points of your army off the table to wait it out. Instead of spending the extra points on a transport they don't need (servo-skull+Deepstrike gets you where you wanna be on the cheap), either put them with the phalanx (most of the Grey Knight units and abilities work best in conjunction, not solo, and the Librarian's auras and buffs are all localised), or Deepstrike them into sniping positions in support.

[neonfunk]

Hi all,

 

Just a quick noob inquiry... Codex says the transport capacity of the SR is 12 models. Does this mean that we can only embark 6 models in TDA in the SR?

 

Extending this question to other vehicles like LR's, does the same ruling apply?

e.g. LR Crusader capacity is 16 models. Therefore only 8 Termies allowed in?

 

Thanks in advance

[thade]

Yep. ;)