The Brotherhood Banner

[neonfunk]

I'd like to discuss the "worthiness"/"value" of the brotherhood banner, as well as ask a rules question

 

The rules as per the codex states that a unit with the banner, grants each model +1 Attack. Additionally, the unit will automatically pass its pscyhic test to "activate" it's force weapons.

 

Firstly, I'd like to ask if anyone knows what kind of implication this has in regards to Psyker Mastery Levels.

 

Lets use a unit of paladins with a banner as an example.

 

If for example, the aforementioned unit uses it's holocaust pychic power in the shooting phase, and then engages an enemy unit in the assault phase, does the banner still enable force weapon activation? I only ask this, because paladins and most non-character units are psycher mastery lvl1 i.e. can only use 1 power in each PLAYER turn... an issue that was addressed in the recent FAQ. Hence, using holocaust (in shooting phase), and then auto "activating" force weapons due to the banner (in assualt phase) would culminate in the usage of 2 pcychic powers in the same player turn, hence exceeding the allowed ONE psychic power per player turn.... So, what happens when a situation such as this arises? Does the banner then NOT grant the force weapon activation? Or does it continue to allow it, as it is basically a "free" perk that is granted to us?

 

Now, secondly, I'd also like to discuss the merits of the banner itself.... worth it? I would say yes, in a larger sized squad of course, much like psybolt ammo. However, I would the answer would be somewhat dependant on my above query.... If the inclusion of the banner basically uses up the 1 psychic power per player turn quota, then this would no doubt leave us in a pickle.

 

So can anyone please explain or clarify this for me?

Many thanks in advance, your input would be greatly appreciated

 

Regards,

Neonfunk

[jeffersonian000]

The banner just allows a unit to auto-pass the activation of their NFW, it does not bypass the need for a power to be used. If a unit of GKT uses Hammerhand, they cannot then activate their NFW as they have already use their 1 power per turn. However, if a PML2 charater were in the unit, then the character could cast Hammerhand while he and the rest of the unit auto-activate their NFW due to their banner.

 

This has more effect versus a 'Nid army, due to the 'Nid's ability to force psykers to test with 3d6 rather than their standard 2d6. The banner simply bypasses the need to test, yet the power still need to be used.

 

And as has been stated on numerous threads, the Banner is only really cost effective in larger squad sizes, as the +1 attack per model just isn't worth it unless you can get a lot of attack from extra bodies. Personally, I like the idea of having a banner in a 10-man paladin squad, so I can combat squad the psycannons into one group and keep the banner in the other. However, I never have the points to blow on a banner, so have yet to try one out.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This has more effect versus a 'Nid army, due to the 'Nid's ability to force psykers to test with 3d6 rather than their standard 2d6. The banner simply bypasses the need to test, yet the power still need to be used.

 

It's also useful versus anyone with psychic defence. Hoods, rune staffs, Runes of Warding etc will all screw GK armies a lot (due to our reliance on psychic powers to give us an edge in various ways). Also, 'Shadow' is only really in close-combat, and only on Synapse creatures.

In general (even if the enemy doesn't have psychic defences), having everyone inflict ID by default is pretty awesome. Characters/monsters do not wanna come near you, even if you don't get off 'Hammerhand' and/or 'Might' from the attached Librarian.

 

It's a very good buy, I would advocate taking it on larger squads though, as the +1A aura becomes a lot more cost-effective, and the ID bonus spreads to more models = more attacks = more wounds inflicted which can utilise said bonus.

 

And as has been stated on numerous threads, the Banner is only really cost effective in larger squad sizes, as the +1 attack per model just isn't worth it unless you can get a lot of attack from extra bodies. Personally, I like the idea of having a banner in a 10-man paladin squad, so I can combat squad the psycannons into one group and keep the banner in the other. However, I never have the points to blow on a banner, so have yet to try one out.

 

I'd advise against putting all four psycannon Pallies in the same unit. It's very 'eggs in one basket', like when people do the same with Purifiers. 8 psycannon dakka should do some kinda of damage to most things in the game, if not then fire the second unit. The problem you'll get by taking them all with one unit is wasting firepower. 16 psycannon shots do horrible things to enemy units, but you'll often have multiple vehicles you'll wanna target. By taking 2 per Combat squad, you can still gank if you want, but you have the flexibility of being able to re-direct the second squads dakka if the first Combat squad does satisfactory damage (immobilising transports, blowing gun(s) off shooty tanks).

 

It also means both Paladin units are threatening in the shooting phase, not just one. It doesn't impact on the combat viability on the unit at all (they each carry a NFW regardless, and you can even take the psycannon on the Banner Bearer, because he can still swap his storm bolter), which is why you're taking them over Purifiers in the first place (who trade in a bit of their combat prowess to psycannon spam, in addition to being more static due to not having TDA).

[jeffersonian000]

I'm pretty sure typed that I like the idea but never tried it. Yep! I did.

 

SJ

[Angelis Mortis]

I had my first game with a banner on a 7 man Paladin Death Star with Driago the other day. I can say that it was way worth it. Those extra attacks really made a noticeable difference to both me and my opponent. He was running Eldar and thought his Harlequin squad (full strength) was going to roll through my Paladins (about 4 strong by that time w/Draigo). What really happened was he put two wounds on my Paladins (which I spread around due to allocation shinanegans) and then proceeded to mop the floor with Eldar blood. In the end it was GK 10 vs Harlequins 0. Personally I love it.

 

For those looking for awesome banners I found these the other day and intend to purchase some next payday. Very nice work. Hope its ok I posted it here.

 

http://hitechminiatures.com/null/product/info/44

 

 

http://hitechminiatures.com/_shop/userFile/hitech/picture/big/Banners_of_purity_gray.jpg

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Does an IC joined to a squad with the banner also have his NFW auto activated? If yes then I could definitely see it being worth the points. If not I'd rather have psybolt ammo instead.

 

G :)

[Angelis Mortis]

Does an IC joined to a squad with the banner also have his NFW auto activated? If yes then I could definitely see it being worth the points. If not I'd rather have psybolt ammo instead.

 

G :tu:

 

Yes he does and he gets the +1 A also.

[Crynn]

Just a note here that people tnd to miss. You can still use a psychic hood against the banner as you automatically pass the test but it can still be countered. it does stop runes of warding and shadow of the warp though.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't know if I agree with that to be honest. Automatic means just that - automatic. Pretty clear in my opinion.

 

G :)

[Brother Valerius]

You're reading more into it than you should. You automatically pass the psychic test, that doesn't mean you automatically get to use the power. Since a psychic hood happens after you have passed the psychic test, it can still be used against a unit with a brotherhood banner.

[thade]

Yep. Use of the Banner doesn't negate things like Psychic Hoods or Space Wolf Shenanigans. You auto-pass the test; you don't auto-pass any subsequent roll-offs required by cancellers.

[Hinti]

@Thade, Brother Valerius and Crynn

Is that your Opinion?? If not, tell me teh EXACT Rule for that!! (I DON'T mind what other Codexes say)

 

I don't share your Rule layout.........as, in MY Rule understanding, Psychic Hood is to negate an passesd Psychic Test

Broderhood Banner Rules quote out exactly: Passes Test automaticaly to activate....blablablabla, so NO Psychic Test have to be done. Therefore NO Psychic Hood because there is no test to negate.......

Otherwise the BH-Banner ist just "useless" (it's most advantage gone) and would then nothing "better" then DA DW-Banner (althoug +1A is still awesome)

 

As said in my Opinion very well clear, RAW as well as RAI....

 

 

Don't get me wrong, that's an important thing to know, so it must be cleared for ever and now............to our Benefit or, maybe not.

 

Hinti

[thade]

I don't share your Rule layout.........as, in MY Rule understanding, Psychic Hood is to negate an passesd Psychic Test

Read the Psychic Hood entry. It is used to cancel psychic powers.

 

Read the Brotherhood Banner. It says you automatically pass the test to activate your Force Weapons.

 

Automatically Pass is not the same as They Just Go Off And Nothing Can Stop Them.

 

Automatically Pass means you don't have to roll; the test happens and you succeed. (Congratulations.) After you made your test (which, courtesy of the Banner, you succeeded in) a Psychic Hood (or anything like it) can now challenge you. Nothing in the entry of the Banner prevents this from happening.

 

Did you pass the test to activate your FW? Yes, you did. You automatically passed. You still took the test.

 

So, no, it's not my opinion; it's RAW.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree with Hinti.

 

G

[thade]

I agree with Hinti.

How precisely does automatically passing a test equate to the test not having happened?

 

This is analogous to Calgar's "my troops automatically pass or fail their morale tests as they wish" ability. If the test doesn't actually happen, it's exactly like Fearless (and thus should incur No Retreat! wounds); however by the way it's written (and a recent FAQ clarification) we know that No Retreat! wounds are not incurred. The test counts-as being rolled, however you automatically pass. The test still took place.

 

It's the same here. The test took place; it was automatically passed.

 

Psychic Hoods (and the like) take affect after the power has been activated (after the psychic test was taken and passed). Nothing about the Banner negates this.

 

This is pretty easy, guys. I mean, I'd love for the Banner to ignore Hoods too, but that's not what it does.

 

EDIT: typo

[Brother Valerius]

I don't share your Rule layout.........as, in MY Rule understanding, Psychic Hood is to negate an passesd Psychic Test

Read the Psychic Hood entry. It is used to cancel psychic powers.

 

Read the Brotherhood Banner. It says you automatically pass the test to activate your Force Weapons.

 

Automatically Pass is not the same as They Just Go Off And Nothing Can Stop Them.

 

Automatically Pass means you don't have to roll; the test happens and you succeed. (Congratulations.) After you made your test (which, courtesy of the Banner, you succeeded in) a Psychic Hood (or anything like it) can now challenge you. Nothing in the entry of the Banner prevents this from happening.

 

Did you pass the test to activate your FW? Yes, you did. You automatically passed. You still took the test.

 

So, no, it's not my opinion; it's RAW.

 

Quite. Succinctly put, the effect of the Brotherhood Banner is as if you were rolling loaded dice. Everything else that can happen with a psychic power still happens, you just will always pass the psychic test with no possibility of perils.

 

Hinti and Black Orange, you guys are both conflating two things in the rules. Automatically passing the psychic test is the effect of the Brotherhood Banner. That is NOT the same as automatically being successful in activating the force weapons. You are glossing over an extremely important distinction.

[thade]

Ah, I see how their confusion may have come about now; well highlighted, Brother Valerius.

 

Auto-passing the test is not the same as Auto-succeeding at activating the weapons. :P That is true and likely the crux of the issue here.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Do you remember when Thousand Sons auto passed all psychic checks and could not be blocked?

 

G :P

[thade]

Do you remember when Thousand Sons auto passed all psychic checks and could not be blocked?

You're going to have be more specific if you intend this as a counter-argument. Given how specific we've been, no less will do you any service.

 

The Thousand Son sorcerors don't auto-pass anything, let alone everything. Psychic hoods work on them, just as they do anybody else.

 

As for Ahriman, if memory serves he doesn't auto-pass everything either. He gets three tests a turn, but he's still got to roll for all of them and can still be stymied by a hood.

[neonfunk]

The banner just allows a unit to auto-pass the activation of their NFW, it does not bypass the need for a power to be used. If a unit of GKT uses Hammerhand, they cannot then activate their NFW as they have already use their 1 power per turn.

 

Thanks for all the input guys, much appreciated. Just wanted to set in stone the answer to my initial query. So, as stated by the above from Jeffersonian000, if a unit of GKT or pallies use hammerhand OR holocaust (respecitvely) FIRST, THEN the auto-activation due to banner can NOT be granted?? (due to only 1 psychic power allowed quota? Please disregard any scenario involving an attached IC, etc...)

 

I apologise for asking again, I'm just ever slightly thrown off abit from the bolded ^ line above in the quote.

 

Regarding pyschic hood and such defences,

RAW = hood can negate

RAI = hood can't... surely.....

 

This gives rise to another potenital scenario... If indeed, RAW is correct, and the hood NEGATES the force weapon activation, can the GK unit then proceed to try and go for hammerhand? I have an inkling that the answer is "no", but I'm not too up to date with 5th ed rules (I last played in 2nd/3rd ed)

 

Thanks in advance

[neonfunk]

sorry, double posts.... Can the mods please delete? Thanks

[Gentlemanloser]

This gives rise to another potenital scenario... If indeed, RAW is correct, and the hood NEGATES the force weapon activation, can the GK unit then proceed to try and go for hammerhand? I have an inkling that the answer is "no", but I'm not too up to date with 5th ed rules (I last played in 2nd/3rd ed)

 

Nope. ;)

 

You've already used your 1 power per turn on activating your force Weapons. That the activation was then stopped/nulified by a PH or SW Runes doesn't matter.

[neonfunk]

Nope.

 

You've already used your 1 power per turn on activating your force Weapons. That the activation was then stopped/nulified by a PH or SW Runes doesn't matter.

 

Then that is UTTERLY ridiculous!!!!! That means that the hammerhand psychic power (or any other pychic power the unit has) can NEVER be used if they take a brotherhood banner!!!! (we're excluding attached IC's here of course). Because, consider this:

 

1) You enter assault phase

2) The Banner grants you an auto-pass on the Force Weapon Activation. Hence, quota of 1 pscyhic power per turn is used

3) You can then be potentially shut down by a psychic hood (or equivalent etc..)

4) You CAN NOT then choose another power (e.g. hammerhand) to use, since your quota is used.

 

Hence, am I correct in the assertion that hammerhand can NEVER be used (in a unit without an attached IC?)??

 

This is of course, assuming that you CANNOT choose to use hammerhand initially, an act that in effect, is electing to nullify the affect of a piece of wargear that you bought yourself????

 

Thanks

[jeffersonian000]

Except you can choose to use the Banner, or not. The only effect it has that is on all the time is the +1A.

 

SJ

[Morollan]

Nope.

 

You've already used your 1 power per turn on activating your force Weapons. That the activation was then stopped/nulified by a PH or SW Runes doesn't matter.

 

Then that is UTTERLY ridiculous!!!!! That means that the hammerhand psychic power (or any other pychic power the unit has) can NEVER be used if they take a brotherhood banner!!!! (we're excluding attached IC's here of course). Because, consider this:

 

1) You enter assault phase

2) The Banner grants you an auto-pass on the Force Weapon Activation. Hence, quota of 1 pscyhic power per turn is used

3) You can then be potentially shut down by a psychic hood (or equivalent etc..)

4) You CAN NOT then choose another power (e.g. hammerhand) to use, since your quota is used.

 

Hence, am I correct in the assertion that hammerhand can NEVER be used (in a unit without an attached IC?)??

 

This is of course, assuming that you CANNOT choose to use hammerhand initially, an act that in effect, is electing to nullify the affect of a piece of wargear that you bought yourself????

 

Thanks

 

You're not obliged to use the Banner to auto-pass your force weapon test. You can use Hammerhand if you prefer (and that can be hooded, meaning you can't then try to activate your force weapons).