Need some assistance on commander choice, unit setup, etc

[arizonajirt]

Hello all. I am rather new to the Grey Knights. I purchased a box of terminators and standard Grey Knights before just to build them. But just last week I came into possession of 2 more boxes of terminators and another box of Grey Knights from a friend who is moving and didnt want to take them. so from this I am going to start a very small Grey Knight force.

 

Now to the questions I have:

I am trying to figure out what heavy weapon would be best, the incinerator or psycannon. What is the advantages/disadvantages to each.

 

If I go with the incinerator, I could pick Crowe as a HQ choice and for a purifier unit, but is this really a good choice? I have heard that it is quite deadly, but never witnessed the effects in person.

 

I have looked at the profiles for Crowe, Stern and Draigo, but really dont see any real advantage to one over the others.

 

I could really use some help in this. I know someone is going to tell me to just buy the codex, which is already on the way, but getting an english codex here in Germany is a bit harder to come by in a timely manner. thanks.

[Reaver Ackler]

Okay, Draigo is the best choice of the 3, he gets Grand strategy, a force weapon (the Withchblade), and Paladins (your strongest units) become basic Troop choices, plus Sanctified flame, which is a Template weapon with 5 Str, no AP, but it wounds Daemons on a 4/5+, so if you put him in a Pally squad that's been put w/ Mordrak, on the 1st turn you could get a potential 30/40 kills with the squad. -Done on the PS3

[Angelis Mortis]

but it wounds Daemons on a 4/5+,

 

Actually wounds Daemons on a 2+, but still Draigo is just as nasty as he appears in the writing, probably more so.

[Valerian]

Okay, Draigo is the best choice of the 3, he gets Grand strategy, a force weapon (the Withchblade), and Paladins (your strongest units) become basic Troop choices, plus Sanctified flame, which is a Template weapon with 5 Str, no AP, but it wounds Daemons on a 4/5+, so if you put him in a Pally squad that's been put w/ Mordrak, on the 1st turn you could get a potential 30/40 kills with the squad. -Done on the PS3

 

You can't put Mordrak with a Paladin squad. He either goes with his Ghost Knights or nothing (although ICs can be attached to him).

 

Valerian

[arizonajirt]

Thanks for your help. I will have to pick up Draigo now.

[nurglez]

part of the main reason for taking draigo is to bring along paladins as troops. paladins are great fun, though rather costly in game.

 

Also, psycannon's are the best all round "special" weapon. incinerators are good, but you probably wont fire them all that often, and will want to close with the enemy to use them. Psycannon's have the same range as your storm bolters, and on terminators can always fire 4 shots, even when moving. Lets you decide when to close with the enemy, and when to stay at range shooting them up :D

[OMGNINJAS]

If you are looking for a points effective Commander I like to use a standard Grandmaster.

 

Give him a Nem. Sword to get a 3+ inv. in close combat. Then mc his weapon for reroll to hit and digital for a reroll wound. Then to top it off rad. grenades for the nice T debuff. All this and your only at around 200 points and he works great with a Paladin or Terminator bodyguard.

[thade]

Draigo is a beast and he shapes your army (making your Paladins troops)...he's expensive and Paladins are expensive. I'm not saying they aren't worth it (they definitely appear to be, if bat reps can be trusted) however their cost is so extreme that it restricts what else you can take.

 

If you go the GM route with straight up Terminators, you have a bit more flexibility. People will point out that GKT cost "only fifteen points less than paladins, per model"...which is true...but with GKT there is no reason to pump them full of upgrades (and you can't take quite as many anyway), so really it will save you a great deal. ;)

 

As you've already got a mass of terminators and are going for Draigo, give the Draigo-wing a try; you might as well. ;) Don't shy away from other list-styles though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Draigo is kinda restricted to larger games though, he doesn't scale well to smaller skirmishes (you end up with like 7 models in an army). Below 2,000 points, take a generic Grandmaster.

 

As far as a primary HQ goes though, nothing comes close to the Librarian. I like this build for him;

 

Librarian w/warding stave, 'Might', 'Quicksilver', 'Sanctuary', 'Shrouding'

(205 points)

 

Warding stave means he can survive enemy heroes/monsters singling him out in close-combat (which they will), and you get a 2+ invul to use against 'Perils' attacks in close-combat (outside of that you have to rely on your 5+ from TDA). Standard loadout of powers to buff whatever he's near. 'Might' means you can slap down walkers before they can strike (when you combo with halberds), and you can break Landraiders in combat too. 'Quicksilver' is for those rare occasions someone is faster than I6, or for buffing a nearby Dreadknight to take on an enemy hero (I4 is pretty weaksauce sometimes). 'Sanctuary' looks quite mediocre on paper, but in five games now I have seen it wreak absolute carnage. The slowing of enemy charges (had a couple of times now where people have rolled 1's for assault distance, then I shoot+charge them instead in my turn, priceless) is awesome enough, but those 'Dangerous Terrain' tests really rack up the kills. Smaller units usually survive ok, but anything 10-man or greater will suffer. 'Shrouding' is the requisite defensive buff to keep your limited numbers of infantry and vehicles alive longer.

 

For a secondary HQ, I like this Grandmaster build;

 

Grandmaster w/sword, blind grenades, 2 x servo-skulls

(195 points)

 

Everyone carries on about rad nades, but TBH I've never missed them. He already has 'Hammerhand' built in anyway, and seeing as you're usually joining units that aren't using their squad 'Hammerhand' (Purifiers are casting 'Cleansing Flame', Terminators and Paladins are using their Brotherhood Banner), you can just turn on 'Hammerhand' and get the same effect for free. Blind grenades on the other hand are worth their weight in gold. After the enemy is already hurting from the 'Sanctuary' of the nearby Librarian, they then have to contend with losing their charge bonus attacks. Servo-skulls are useful but spamming them isn't required, two sown onto key positions (ie near objectives/good sniping positions) will do fine.

 

Thats really the only two HQ's I bother with, and below 2k I only take the Librarian. Crowe is a complete waste of time (Purifiers as Troops looks good on paper, but you end up with next to no staying power and bodies), Stern is a team-killer, Mordrak is gimmicky and overpriced, Inquisitors are a waste of time (they die in seconds when you actually hit close-combat), Coteaz I only bring in my crazy Henchmen Razorspam list. Draigo is a tank, but it's unusual you'll see more than one squad of Paladins anyway (and the generic Grandmaster can just use 'Grand Strategy' to make them scoring anyway), so I don't bother with him.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

Mordrak is gimmicky and overpriced

Overpriced, seriously? For +25 pts. you get +1A and +1W (which alone is worth 20 pts.), a master crafted-NDH (worth 10 pts.) and as part of a unit of Ghosts he can't be singled out, doesn't give up a KP, gets stealth from his retinue, is able to generate additional Terminators (= meat shield) and the whole unit arrives first turn without scatter.

The drawbacks are obviously that the Ghosts can't take a heavy Weapon (which can easily be countered with an attached cheap 80 pts. TDA-PC Malleus =I= or a librarian), that you're limited to 5 Ghosts (which isn't bad either as it prevents you from turning the unit into a point sink) and that the retinue dies if Mordrak does (although it's not as easy as it sounds considering that he can't be picked, has 4W and stealth).

He is the best way to get a cheap and effective unit of Terminators with added GM into any list as you save the points you would normally have to spend on a transport (SR or Raider = 200+ pts.) or take the risk of a normal Deep-Strike (can't assault until turn 3+ and scatters, both can somewhat be negated with skulls (which can be removed) and Psychic Communion (for which you have to keep a squishy inquisitor alive)).

 

Of course you aren't able to equip Mordrak with fany Grenades but who needs these if you can utterly mess around with your opponents deployment instead ^^?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Overpriced, seriously? For +25 pts. you get +1A and +1W (which alone is worth 20 pts.), a master crafted-NDH (worth 10 pts.) and as part of a unit of Ghosts he can't be singled out, doesn't give up a KP, gets stealth from his retinue, is able to generate additional Terminators (= meat shield) and the whole unit arrives first turn without scatter.

 

Grandmasters aren't combat monsters anyway, they're support heroes with slightly better WS/BS than a Librarian. Also, Mordrak comes with precisely no special grenades.

Daemonhammers do not belong on characters with I5 (same reason Kantor is a real deadweight in his army, because he gets killed before he can swing). It's nice that he can hide inside the unit, but causing 5 wounds on T4 isn't that difficult.

The KP issue is irrelevant, because if he dies, the whole unit does too (thus earning the enemy their KP handily, and removing a close-combat presence you were relying on)

The generation of additional Terminators is reliant on allocating wounds to him, and him failing those wounds. It's gimmicky, and if the enemy manage to actually kill him, all your hard work building up a mega-unit goes up in smoke (literally).

Stealth will only work for you if you land in cover, which even with no scatter, is likely to cause dangerous terrain tests. In close-combat (which is where Mordrak and his retinue are most effective, remember no psycannon), Stealth is completely meaningless.

Arriving first turn is nice, but his retinue are so fail and as a hero his abilites are lackluster next to a cheaper generic GM with nades.

 

The drawbacks are obviously that the Ghosts can't take a heavy Weapon (which can easily be countered with an attached cheap 80 pts. TDA-PC Malleus =I= or a librarian)

 

Librarians don't have access to psycannons, and I would never take a worthless T3 character just for a heavy weapon, I'd rather just buy scoring regular Terminators.

 

He is the best way to get a cheap and effective unit of Terminators with added GM into any list as you save the points you would normally have to spend on a transport (SR or Raider = 200+ pts.) or take the risk of a normal Deep-Strike (can't assault until turn 3+ and scatters, both can somewhat be negated with skulls (which can be removed) and Psychic Communion (for which you have to keep a squishy inquisitor alive)).

 

The Ghost Knights cost exactly the same as regular Terminators, but they can never score, they're capped at 5-man, and they disappear in a cloud of smoke if Mordrak dies.

By comparison, regular Terminators have psycannon access, score by default, fufill mandatory Troops selections, and can (I would say should) be bumped up to 10-strong. They also don't care if their leader dies.

 

Your analysis assumes people take Terminator transports in smaller games (I don't even bother in larger games, they do fine on foot). I would never bring a Stormraven or Landraider at 1.5k, and neither would I buy non-scoring Terminators who cannot be relied upon (with a generic GM, if he dies you lose some nade benefits and a back-up 'Hammerhand', plus 'Psychic Communion' assuming you still have reserves at that point), and a character who always goes at I1 and makes his unit evaporate when he does.

 

Of course you aren't able to equip Mordrak with fany Grenades but who needs these if you can utterly mess around with your opponents deployment instead ^^?

 

You don't utterly mess with it. You show up, shoot storm bolter at infantry (tanks/monsters laugh at S4), then get counter-charged/shot to hell because nothing else landed in support of you. This is the central problem with Mordrak; he sticks himself, his squad and any IC that tags along deep in enemy lines on Turn 1. At least with Drop Pod Assault armies or Deathwing, half their force shows up on Turn 1 to give people a headache. If his bonus had been along those lines (special 'Grand Strategy' hax that allowed himself+D3 units Turn 1 Deepstrike), I'd consider him worth it. As it is, he's gimmicky and brings nothing to the army that I want.

 

If he works for you, more power to you man, but I just don't see the appeal.