Weaponry Question

[Brother Augustine]

I am planning out my army list for Grey Knights and wanted to get an opinion from the community.

Is it better to mix nemesis weapons within squads, or have the entire squad equipped the same way?

[Simo429]

I would say it depends on the purpose of the squad, strike squads don't have many attacks and even with all power weapons you don't want to be sending them into close combat if you can help it so its best to save the points that you would use on halberds ect and use them elsewhere.

 

However purfiers are going to be your main assault troop so giving them the chance to strike before the enemy is of great use and having a mix of weapons is always good for allocation.

[Brother Augustine]

When you say Allocation, you mean wound allocation right?

So for example, Strike squad stick with swords, Purifiers go for Halberds, and Paladins mix it up.

I was also thinking about using mainly swords for basic Terminators, but maybe I should throw some Halberds in as well? Just trying to get a good handle on this before making purchases 'cause I tend to suffer from "ooh shiny" syndrome.

Also, to anyone out there who has used the Dreadknight, is the Greatsword worth the points?

[Tankred]

Don´t forget hammers. You NEED them. :lol:

[Brother Augustine]

*nods* Right, right. I figured at least one per Squad.

[Simo429]

When you say Allocation, you mean wound allocation right?

So for example, Strike squad stick with swords, Purifiers go for Halberds, and Paladins mix it up.

I was also thinking about using mainly swords for basic Terminators, but maybe I should throw some Halberds in as well? Just trying to get a good handle on this before making purchases 'cause I tend to suffer from "ooh shiny" syndrome.

Also, to anyone out there who has used the Dreadknight, is the Greatsword worth the points?

Purifiers I think should have a mix of psycannons, halberds and a hammer. That gives you three groups to allocate to.

 

I would just keep swords on strike squads bar one psycannon.

 

Paladins I don't have any interest in so I couldn't tell you.

[nurglez]

Hammers, generally 1 per 5 models is a good ratio. On regular terminators, you will want a lot of halberds, on paladins, you will want a mix, to take advantage of wound allocation shenanigans.

 

The great sword is rather nice, though you lose an attack, you gain re rolls, which I always need (even hitting on 3s I generally roll a few 1's or 2's), and it helps vs vehicles that have moved fast, not to mention that the great sword is twice the size of a terminator so looks damn cool heh.

[Brother Augustine]

That it does.

I do plan on including Psycannons and the like in each squad, I was just trying to figure out if it was better to focus on one weapon per squad to maximize a battlefield role, paladins not withstanding of course. But no I have another question to ask. Why worry about wound allocation on a single wound unit? I know with multi wounds, you want them to be more individual so that you can break the wounds up and you don't have to drop one guy every 2 wounds, but why the others?

[Kuri Teadlane]

In the games i've played so far with the exception of Paladins I find it's not worth mixing it up to much, our troops are expensive as it is so you won't have many of them so I find it easier to give each a role and keep it like that so with Strike Squads the basic sword does fine with a psycannon or two, as anything else is pushing up the price that could be used for more bodies etc... However things like Purifiers could easily get away with Halberds for that speed boost in combat and quite a cheap cost.

 

However with Paladins having two wounds I tend to go all out for the wound allocation so two psycannons one with sword, one with halberd and the other three paladins with a daemon hammer, sword and halberd.

 

Thats just my two cents.

[Brother Augustine]

And a Very shiny two cents it is. Thanks alot for your help guys, I think I am ready to start planning my list.

[Dwars]

I have a strike squad of 10 with one hammer, 2 psycannons, 4 halberds and 3 swords. The unit was worth all of its points in the games I played so far.

When I combat squad them I have a nice fire base with 2 cannons and 3 swords. The other squad is a nice close combat squad.

[thade]

Much of the theory already put forward is sound, so I'll just add some footnotes....

 

I have a lot of metal guys with halberds...that I may end up repainting with white helmets and shoulders to be Purifiers. Halberds are kind of expensive on Strikes, but I want to personally experiment first. (Purifiers are more expensive and require Crowe or a GM to score; SS do not.) I'd rather have Strikes with swords. They're still force weapons, and as "cheap" as GK infantry gets.

 

Sticking falchions on an Interceptor squad is very much like turning them into the GK version of a Space Marine Assault squad (+1 off hand attack, but far superior pre-charge shooting and all force weapons) so that's something I am definitely considering for a unit.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

My general choices, after a couple of games with them;

 

- Strike squads: Hammer on the Justicar is optional, double psycannon is required. No other upgrades, psy-bolt isn't that fantastic IMO

- Purifier squads: Quad psycannon, halberd on Flame Knight and 3 others, and two hammers. Combat squad into a squad with each having two psycannon, two halberd and a hammer. They make fantastic auxilary units to your bigger Strike squads, able to still lay down psycannon dakka and counter-charge if need be.

- Terminators: Two psycannons, Banner Bearer, two hammers, the rest with halberds (including Justicar). Do not combat squad these guys, they do not have the staying power or close-combat punch at 5-man. At 10-man and everyone being buffed by the banner+Librarian, they make a mess of enemy units.

- Paladins: Quad psycannon, Banner Bearer, two hammers, rest with halberds. Apothecary isn't that great IMO, so thats a personal choice. Combat squad like you do with Purifiers; two psycannon and a hammer in each. Librarian with one, Grandmaster/Draigo joins the other one.

- Interceptors: Same as Strike squad

- Purgators: You're doing it wrong, take Purifiers instead

 

As to the Dreadknight, the greatsword is a must-have upgrade, as is the personal teleporter (hence my suggestion you leave off the Apothecary from Paladins, to save the points needed). Re-rolls to hit, wound and damage vehicles is insane, the hammer or ranged upgrades pale in comparison. If you do want a gun on him, heavy psycannon works pretty well for me (I fight a lot of power armour the heavy incinerator is worse usually), heavy psilencer is a waste of points (although newbies might cry at how many shots he spews out with it).

[thade]

- Purgators: You're doing it wrong, take Purifiers instead

This bit isn't entirely true. Purifiers are much better than Purg squads at melee combat...but Purg squads can shoot through walls which is pretty nice. I wouldn't take them in a list with Paladins (given the massive amount of points allocated to Pallies, I'm not sure I'd take a Purg over a Purifier squad) but in a Strike Squad list, they might be a good time.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

This bit isn't entirely true. Purifiers are much better than Purg squads at melee combat...but Purg squads can shoot through walls which is pretty nice. I wouldn't take them in a list with Paladins (given the massive amount of points allocated to Pallies, I'm not sure I'd take a Purg over a Purifier squad) but in a Strike Squad list, they might be a good time.

 

I'll make the comparison I made in another thread before;

 

Flame Knight w/sword, 4 x Purifiers w/psycannons, 4 x Purifiers w/swords

(280 points)

 

vs

 

Justicar w/sword, 4 x Purgators w/psycannons, 4 x Purgators w/swords

(280 points)

 

Cost the exact same, but with key differences.

Purgators get one advantage, 'Astral Aim', which even if it goes off (like all our psychic powers, they're not givens, just bonuses), is weakened by its 4+ cover modifier.

Purifiers get twice the attacks, better Leadership, and 'Cleansing Flame' (again, you can't rely on it going off, but it's much more impressive as a power). In addition, 'Cleansing Flame' stacks in a way Purgators can't match. When you combat squad Purifiers, then charge each half into the same combat, you can double cast 'Cleansing Flame'.

The final difference is one of oppertunity cost. Purifiers live in Elite, where their only real competition is the Vindicare (who should be in everyone's army, as an anti-Landraider/powerfist sarge device) and Paladins (who are too expensive in smaller games, and you're unlikely to take more than one squad anyway). Purgators live in Heavy Support, where PsyDreads are king (and you really need two for redundancy), and the Dreadknight offers so much more as an alternative (jump infantry monster that eats tanks).

[Simo429]

It seems in this thread that people are running large squads of GK rather than MSU which I really expected because of the nasty nature of razorspam with psybolt ammo.

Surprises me a lot.

[thade]

Different applications. Purifiers are great on a flat table or one with little to no cover. How about in a city-scape battle with lots of tall, LOS-blocking buildings? Purifiers can't pop that LR when it's in hard cover, but Purg squads can.

 

The 4+ cover save isn't a "weakening"...it's just typical. Shooting through cover/terrain has always granted cover saves. Astral Aim is good, but not game-breaking. And it comes up for 24" where as the Purifier split-and-double-flame trick only comes up in assaults.

 

I'm not asserting one is better than the other in all cases; I'm asserting that neither is better than the other in all cases. It's fine to prefer Purifiers, but don't rule out Purg squads.

 

Purg squads also have teleport homers on them, which in addition to Communion means you can very readily support them with something nasty. Even purifiers. <3

[Brother Augustine]

Purifiers can't DS can they?

 

*Checks rules*

No Purifiers can't. But you can support those Purgators with just about every other GK unit. :) Like Dreadknights!

[thade]

Purifiers can't DS can they?

 

*Checks rules*

No Purifiers can't. But you can support those Purgators with just about every other GK unit. :devil: Like Dreadknights!

Ah I was mistaken; thanks for clearing it up. :)

[Brother Augustine]

I did the same thing. I had to read the Purifiers sections like 3 or 4 times before I realized they didn't have the Deep Strike rules.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It seems in this thread that people are running large squads of GK rather than MSU which I really expected because of the nasty nature of razorspam with psybolt ammo.

Surprises me a lot.

 

Its down to the higher cost of our infantry. BA/SW have dirt-cheap power-armoured dudemanz who unlock a mechanised army. Knights don't play like that; we need every body we can get on the field, to maximise the dakka output and staying power overall.

 

Different applications. Purifiers are great on a flat table or one with little to no cover. How about in a city-scape battle with lots of tall, LOS-blocking buildings? Purifiers can't pop that LR when it's in hard cover, but Purg squads can.

 

I actually play on urban terrain boards a lot (I love buildings, 3+ cover with 'Shrouding' :D ), and hiding big things is harder than you think. Also, by definition, if the Landraider is out of LOS, it can't contribute much to the battle. It either can't shoot lascannons at me (yay), or its not trundling forwards to deliver that assault unit I hate (Black Templar Terminator Sword Brethren ;) :huh: :P ). It's rare thats the case though, if its hiding from one thing, you can usually get an angle on it with a different unit.

 

The 4+ cover save isn't a "weakening"...it's just typical. Shooting through cover/terrain has always granted cover saves. Astral Aim is good, but not game-breaking. And it comes up for 24" where as the Purifier split-and-double-flame trick only comes up in assaults.

 

Oh I agree, against infantry, I've never shot anything in the open anymore (5th edition has firmly trained us all to hug cover like cowering children). Vehicles are a different story. Smoke launchers work for one turn, and you have to really game LOS to ensure something like a Rhino or Landspeeder is getting that 4+ from 51% of hull obscured. Again, if they're hiding, they're not contributing (except stupid Typhoons, sticking their missile pod round corners ^_^ ).

 

Maybe I'm biased due to my opponents (they're all very fighty and aggressive, I only play against dakka armies infrequently), but close-combat comes up a lot in my games. Shooting through walls is hilarious, but given I'm normally shooting up vehicles with psycannons (PsyDreads roll terrible sometimes :( ), I like not having additional penalties imposed on my unit's dakka output. At worst, yes I take the 4+ cover save negating my damage. From there however, it gets better (no cover, weaksauce 'Shield of Sanguinus' or 'Kustom Force Field' saves).

 

It comes down to where they live, and the points costs being equal. All things being equal, Purifiers win out for me. They let me field my favourite combo in Heavy (2 x PsyDreads, teleport+greatsword Dreadknight), and their only competition in Elite is the Vindicare (it's only in larger games I break out the Paladin Deathstar).

[thade]

Also, by definition, if the Landraider is out of LOS, it can't contribute much to the battle.

How so? Perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about Land Raiders (or smaller, easier to hide transports) that are sitting still. I'm talking about hidden transports that are getting closer and closer to deliver their doods. Or perhaps their second-to-last stop is in a position where I can't see them to hit them with psycannons. It's these situations where I feel Purgation squads would be nice.

 

I do not understand why one would take a Purgation squad with Incinerators...unless one mounted them in a Rhino or even a Land Raider and was pushing them forward, counting on that Teleport homer to assist in some Deep Strike shenanigans against a foot-slogging horde army.

 

Actually, I kind of like that idea.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

How so? Perhaps you misunderstand me. I'm not talking about Land Raiders (or smaller, easier to hide transports) that are sitting still. I'm talking about hidden transports that are getting closer and closer to deliver their doods. Or perhaps their second-to-last stop is in a position where I can't see them to hit them with psycannons. It's these situations where I feel Purgation squads would be nice.

 

Except thats really hard to do. People try the whole 'hide behind another tank/wall' trick to get closer unmolested, but as I said before, it's very unusual you can't get an angle on them from a different unit (Infiltrate on the Vindicare is a god-send, you can always walk Dreadnoughts sideways or run them to better sniping positions if nothing is in range). The scenarios in which 'Astral Aim' is going to pay off are incredibly small. Not worth giving up a Heavy Support slot on the off-chance I can't get LOS.

 

I do not understand why one would take a Purgation squad with Incinerators...unless one mounted them in a Rhino or even a Land Raider and was pushing them forward, counting on that Teleport homer to assist in some Deep Strike shenanigans against a foot-slogging horde army.

 

Actually, I kind of like that idea.

 

Because you can take four in a combat squad, whereas with Purifiers, you don't get quad specials until you take them at full-strength. Hence, you can field a relatively cheap burnination squad in smaller games, and use them to gut armies that don't bring much infantry (ie really bad armies at that point level).

 

However, again I would make the comparison; a unit for which their squad power is already questionable with psycannons, and is rendered pointless with template weapons (I can almost guarantee firing at flamer range without LOS will never come up in a real game), and who fold in close-combat as quickly as a Strike squad? Or, a unit created purely to abuse horde armies, who can still cut apart most non-dedicated assault troops handily, and they live in Elite? In this case, the point difference per model is more obvious (the Purifiers are 40 points more, assuming full squads for both), but they're worth every one of those extra points.

 

Basically, for every job Purgators can do, Purifiers do better, and can branch out into other roles Purgators don't stand a chance at (insane carnage against weak armour saves, cheap halberds and hammers for smushing monsters and characters). Moreover, with regards to the squad teleport homer (a cute addition they conveniently left off all other squads), you can get pretty much effect for the same price with adding a servo-skull to your Librarian/Grandmaster.